[TTC Study] Chapter 5 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Apech]

[Marblehead]

Yes, we discussed this recently. But we didn't have our very own Strawdog at that time. Hey Strawdog!!! Where are you?

[Apech]

For anyone who missed our last debate on this:

 

Life don't give a damn

[dawei]

At another website, we discussed this for 14 pages. I doubt we'll get close to that here

 

The opening is loaded with the difficult words "bu ren".

天地不仁

Tian-Di-Bu-Ren

Heaven-Earth-Not-Benevolent

 

Not Benevelent. As Chan said, 'not humane is provocative and not benevolent is gross'. In Chan's appendix [of his Source book] he says Ren means a 'particular' virtue... so one may infer he means that "bu ren" means "not a particular virtue". I may extrapolate that to, "not of [man-made] virtue", meaning it has no human benefit- or ethic-seeking purpose. What other virtue is there? "De" (德), that which is from Dao. We don't see this emphasized as much as translations like 'sentimental' or 'impartial' to soften the hard line connotation of 'not humane'.

 

Straw Dogs. 芻狗. These were ceremonial effects made of straw as a dog which when the ceremony was done, they were trampled on as meaningless and having no "sentimental" value. Hence, why Wu maybe uses that in his translation. Strangely, Wang Bi comments it as "straw" and "dogs" which seems grossly wrong.

 

Bellows. This is not talked about as much as one might expect. Yes, it continues the meaning of Chapter 4, "full and yet inexhaustible" into chapter 6, but it has been a strong reference in Qigong society as to the working of Qi (bellows is Dan Tian; the fulness of air generated is Qi).

虛而不屈 - vacuous yet never exhausted -- Chan

 

Bellow 橐籥. In ancient china there is a windbox and double piston box which is probably the direct imagery.

 

Bai Xing 百姓. The 100 Surnames. There is much more history and uncertainty to this than meets the eye. Briefly, the earliest unification was by the Huang [Di] tribe triumph at the Zhuolu Battle. The final alliance created the Bai Xing. With the absorption of the 'losing side' as slaves, it also came to be known as a right for the slave owners. Later mostly nobility only took on surnames and eventually the common people. But what can be seen in earlier times is that those in power tended to be associated with a surname.

 

One variation to the older text:

 

WB: 多言數窮 - More words count less [Tr. Feng/English] (following FY and HSG)

MWD:多聞數窮 - Much learning means frequent exhaustions [Tr. Hendricks]

 

My feeling is that the original meaning meant what we see in the character; An ear in a gate, listening to something. So, paying attention to the external [issues] will cause [internal] exhaustion. Since the bellows is previously mentioned, there is an internal aspect to pay attention to.

 

不如守中

Better look for it within you. -- Wu

Hold fast to the center. -- Feng-English

That's not so good as holding on to the mean. -- Hendricks

 

The character 中 means 'center' as a basic translation. But when one thinks of the word for China as 中国 (zhong guo- Central Kingdom), it does not need to be simply translated as center or mean. I think Wu has the closest meaning so far but I think we should look closer to the previous character, 守 (guard).

 

守中 - Guard Center ?

 

Consider this: 守法 - Observe the Law

 

So 守中 - Observe the center;

FOCUS ON YOUR INNERMOST ESSENCE

Edited December 5, 2010 by dawei

[Procurator]

 

Straw Dogs. 芻狗. These were ceremonial effects made of straw as a dog

what did they symbolise?

[dawei]

what did they symbolise?

The dog is among the earliest domesticated animals. Shang excavations show dog sacrifices and being buried with people (ie: watch dog in the afterlife ?). The Zhou mention sacrifices to ward off disease.

軷 - A chariot riding over an animal. Seems an original tale for trampling on them after the ceremony

 

But the Huainanzi says they are "kings"...

 

edit.. fix atrocious spelling

Edited December 5, 2010 by dawei

[Procurator]

the deeper much deeper level of meaning here is that the dogs ARE kings AND the ancestors as totem animals. every sacrifice is an act of renewal, it keeps the Heaven and Earth eternal.

 

so "regard" or "see" is not quite right here.

Edited December 5, 2010 by TianShi

[Aaron]

Hello people,

 

This is one of those chapters that confused me for a long time. There's this question we ask, perhaps one of our first really difficult moral questions, "why do bad things happen to good people?" Well the first two lines answer this questions, because nature treats all things like straw dogs. It is not benevolant or cruel, it just is. Good things don't always happen because people do good things, nor do bad things always happen when one does bad things.

 

Some people like to think of this as Heaven-and-Earth and that this actually refers to the animals, but that's not what it's saying, if it was, it would seem like it would refer to the 10,000 things, but it doesn't, it clearly says "all things". With that in mind, the second line states that the Sage treats people like straw dogs as well and I think a lot of people misinterpret this to assume that they were not kind or compassionate, when that's not what it's saying, it's saying that they are not sentimental. They are not allowing their emotional attachment to influence how they interact with other people.

 

The strange thing about this chapter is the juxtaposition of nature being essentially unsentimental and then there also being a description of the unfathomable void from which all things sprung forth. It reminds us once again that this void is unexhaustable, but also says that it moves, it is not still or stagnant, but in motion and it is because it moves that things come forth.

 

In my mind I remember the physicists who tell us that the universe is constantly expanding, i.e. moving.

 

I think these previous lines are important because they lay down a framework of how the Daoists of the third century AD believed that people should see the Tao and the Sage. I think the most important thing to see is that the Tao Teh Ching is not telling us to emulate the Sages, but rather explaining how they were. I also believe that the last two lines remind us that no amount of words can fathom the unnameable and that if we do want to understand it, then we should start with those things we can grasp.

 

To be honest I've never put much thought into this chapter, because it seemed to be common sense. I would like to hear what others think. This really is an important chapter to understand in my opinion, if only because without understanding what is being said here, some of the later concepts to appear may not be fully grasped.

 

Aaron

Edited December 5, 2010 by Twinner

[dawei]

the ancestors as totem animals. every sacrifice is an act of renewal, it keeps the Heaven and Earth eternal.

Ok, that is quite profound and makes sense given both the ancient totem and ancestor worship, which is a link between the earthly and heavenly.

 

Linked meaning to Chapter 7 opening?

天長地久

[Procurator]

 

But the Huainanzi says they are "kings"...

 

hey i did not know that, much oblige.

[Procurator]

 

Linked meaning to Chapter 7 opening?

天長地久

but of course:))

 

now a question: what is the logic here, from "strawdogs" to "bellows" and to finish with "observing the centre"?

 

and most importanly all of it "non-humane"?

[Aaron]

To chime in, I actually did some research on the "straw dogs" comment and it's interesting that Wang Bi actually interpreted it as "straw and dogs". D. C. Lau states that, "straw dogs were treated with the greatest deference before they were used as an offering, only to be discarded and trampled upon as soon as they had served their purpose." In this way they were used much like paper tigers.

 

I'm not sure I believe that this is referring to sacrifices, so much as the worth of the invididual. Perhaps another reminder to the rulers that people should not be treated sentimentally, but rather be seen for their purpose and use?

 

Anyways, that's the sum of my knowledge on this topic. Have fun guys.

 

Aaron

Edited December 5, 2010 by Twinner

[Aaron]

but of course:))

 

now a question: what is the logic here, from "strawdogs" to "bellows" and to finish with "observing the centre"?

 

and most importanly all of it "non-humane"?

 

 

Hello TianShi,

 

I think the link has to do with the idea that nature is not sentimental, as the bellows work/move things come forth, but not for sentimental reasons. After making sure we udnerstand that there is no sentimentality involved, we are reminded that we cannot describe these bellows, so any description is useless, so rather than cling to the "false" description of the bellows, cling to what you can understand.

 

Aaron

Edited December 5, 2010 by Twinner

[Procurator]

Hi Aaron

 

so its pretty much along the line of Ecclesiast "all is in wain, just enjoy the little u got, while u r around" whether the ruler or a commoner?

Edited December 5, 2010 by TianShi

[dawei]

but of course:))

 

now a question: what is the logic here, from "strawdogs" to "bellows" and to finish with "observing the centre"?

 

and most importanly all of it "non-humane"?

Until the last line, it seems you want to observe "Man". He is the center [of Heaven and Earth].

[rene]

Good things don't always happen because people do good things, nor do bad things always happen when one does bad things.

 

Doesn't that kinda nuke the concept of karma?

[Procurator]

Until the last line, it seems you want to observe "Man". He is the center [of Heaven and Earth].

and? what is the point of observing him?

[dawei]

and? what is the point of observing him?

Man "is" a one of the 10,000 things. In Qigong we might say, "focus on self before you focus on man". That is the essence.

[Guest allan]

Can Heaven, Earth and the Sage be considered benevolent if they do not tell people about the space between Heaven and Earth?

 

And Laozi went on to describe it (the space) for posterity. Much later, the Zhen Ren (include Zhong LiQuan and Zhang Boduan) indicated its location and mentioned that there is where the real works (or fire) start for the return to Tao.

 

Scholars down the ages who do not cultivate Tao can discuss this chapter five forever and yet get no closer to the meaning. Since even those who cultivate Tao for decades may not know what it is and where its physical location is.

 

Perhaps for the same reason, and because of his short life of 24, Wang Bi has had also missed the mentioned space between Heaven and Earth in the Book of Changes. But how would I know?

 

Therefore, I am still all ears to forum members and/or their friends who may know. (Since I have asked, months ago, in the main forum where its location actually is.)

[Procurator]

Can Heaven, Earth and the Sage be considered benevolent if they do not tell people about the space between Heaven and Earth?

 

.....

Therefore, I am still all ears to forum members and/or their friends who may know. (Since I have asked, months ago, in the main forum where its location actually is.)

he he he:)...u got it backwards allan

 

they do tell the people. people just wont listen. )

Edited December 5, 2010 by TianShi

[Aaron]

Doesn't that kinda nuke the concept of karma?

 

 

Absolutely. I don't believe the concept of karma exists in the Tao Teh Ching

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

Doesn't that kinda nuke the concept of karma?

 

I already nuked that concept a long time ago.

[Aaron]

Can Heaven, Earth and the Sage be considered benevolent if they do not tell people about the space between Heaven and Earth?

 

And Laozi went on to describe it (the space) for posterity. Much later, the Zhen Ren (include Zhong LiQuan and Zhang Boduan) indicated its location and mentioned that there is where the real works (or fire) start for the return to Tao.

 

Scholars down the ages who do not cultivate Tao can discuss this chapter five forever and yet get no closer to the meaning. Since even those who cultivate Tao for decades may not know what it is and where its physical location is.

 

Perhaps for the same reason, and because of his short life of 24, Wang Bi has had also missed the mentioned space between Heaven and Earth in the Book of Changes. But how would I know?

 

Therefore, I am still all ears to forum members and/or their friends who may know. (Since I have asked, months ago, in the main forum where its location actually is.)

 

 

Hello Allan,

 

First I hate the word cultivate. It seems to be the exact opposite of what Tao Teh Ching teaches. How do you cultivate something if it's supposed to grow naturally? Hey I'm going to let these grapes grow naturally, but I'm going to cultivate them! That's like pouring a glass of water and saying you've cultivated the glass.

 

As far as where the bellows are, if you really want to know, it's supposed to be a secret, but I'll tell you. It's twenty five miles south of Detroit, if you pass exit 220 you've gone too far.

 

Aaron

Edited December 5, 2010 by Twinner

[rene]

And Laozi went on to describe it (the space) for posterity. Much later, the Zhen Ren (include Zhong LiQuan and Zhang Boduan) indicated its location and mentioned that there is where the real works (or fire) start for the return to Tao.... Therefore, I am still all ears to forum members and/or their friends who may know.

 

Allan, to me, the 'space between Heaven and Earth' is referring to the aspect of Tao that functions unboundaried with the manifest. As unboundaried, it's inexhaustable and reflects the reverting nature of Tao.

 

warm regards

[Apech]

Hello Allan,

 

First I hate the word cultivate. It seems to be the exact opposite of what Tao Teh Ching teaches. How do you cultivate something if it's supposed to grow naturally? Hey I'm going to let these grapes grow naturally, but I'm going to cultivate them! That's like pouring a glass of water and saying you've cultivated the glass.

 

Aaron

 

But... but you do cultivate grapes if you want them to grow!