[TTC Study] Chapter 5 of the Tao Teh Ching

[manitou]

 

In my mind I remember the physicists who tell us that the universe is constantly expanding, i.e. moving.

 

 

My guess is that the universe is expanding because our consciousness is expanding. And so very much faster now that competent minds have a meeting place on the internet, much like our discussions. Those of us on the enlightened edge are developing in consciousness because we're finding each other. What an incredibly fascinating time to be living in.

[Guest allan]

he he he:)...u got it backwards allan

 

they do tell the people. people just wont listen. )

 

Yes. To and fro goes the Way!

 

Hello Allan,

 

As far as where the bellows are, if you really want to know, it's supposed to be a secret, but I'll tell you. It's twenty five miles south of Detroit, if you pass exit 220 you've gone too far.

 

Aaron

 

Damn. The US gets all the luck.

 

 

Allan, to me, the 'space between Heaven and Earth' is referring to the aspect of Tao that functions unboundaried with the manifest. As unboundaried, it's inexhaustable and reflects the reverting nature of Tao.

 

warm regards

 

Oops, I did not know that Heaven, Earth and the Sage have finally made friends with you. My bad.

[Guest allan]

[Aaron]

But... but you do cultivate grapes if you want them to grow!

 

 

My point is that they should grow naturally, of their own accord without my interference. In the same way Tao can grow without my conscious participation. For me it's not something you "do" but rather something that happens becuase of what you're not doing. Wu Wei... non-interference, but that's another chapter.

 

 

Aaron

[rene]

Allan, to me, the 'space between Heaven and Earth' is referring to the aspect of Tao that functions unboundaried with the manifest. As unboundaried, it's inexhaustable and reflects the reverting nature of Tao.

 

Oops, I did not know that Heaven, Earth and the Sage have finally made friends with you. My bad.

 

???

[dawei]

Doesn't that kinda nuke the concept of karma?

Hi Rene,

 

Karma can be a loaded word.

 

how do you feel about 'cause and effect' instead?

[Guest allan]

???

 

Rene,

 

I was just pulling your leg, however the IE 9 Beta browser does not allow me to add in the emoticons.

 

Regards,

 

Allan

[Apech]

Rene,

 

I was just pulling your leg, however the IE 9 Beta browser does not allow me to add in the emoticons.

 

Regards,

 

Allan

 

Get Firefox ... and a full range of emotions!

[dawei]

First I hate the word cultivate. It seems to be the exact opposite of what Tao Teh Ching teaches. How do you cultivate something if it's supposed to grow naturally?

I am not fond of the word main because it is used somewhat religiously like a moral precept you must follow this or do that. In my 'practice', I've not been around people who choose any particular word, so it's just doing something. I think all these things are self-help approaches. But if I were naturally accelerating my own death by my habits (and then I need to maybe ask how did those habits form, do I just call them 'natural') I might interfere with that and change something (ie: diet, exercise, etc). Somewhere in all this is some balance to what's going on not just outside of us but also inside of us.

 

I am also not overly fond of using 'non-interference' for Wu Wei since interference is going to naturally happen at times. Yes, I can see many practical applications of where not interfering is the natural course but as a translated term it seems then to be all-or-nothing. I think you may of been closer with exploring not being sentimental but then you said the bellows cannot be describe (describing is useless), which was what you were doing! So, maybe you would describe the bellows as not sentimental but in life maybe you find you are sentimental (not so useless)? Maybe all you mean is the the actually workings of the Dao is not able to be described but the bellows was given as LZ's example and now we're using physical examples.

[rene]

Hi Rene,

 

Karma can be a loaded word.

 

how do you feel about 'cause and effect' instead?

 

Cause and effect? Like action/outcome? I jump off a ledge, I will land somewhere. The moral 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the action might not have much to do with the moral 'rightness or 'wrongness' of the outcome. [Nor the morality-aside 'rightness..etc]

 

The whole post of Twinners was:

 

This is one of those chapters that confused me for a long time. There's this question we ask, perhaps one of our first really difficult moral questions, "why do bad things happen to good people?" Well the first two lines answer this questions, because nature treats all things like straw dogs. It is not benevolant or cruel, it just is. Good things don't always happen because people do good things, nor do bad things always happen when one does bad things.

 

And the bolded part prompted the karma question. I can see how those who seek/find/read-into the TTC a need for (only) morality have difficulty with this Chapter.

Edited December 5, 2010 by rene

[rene]

I was just pulling your leg...

 

Oh, okay. I wasn't pulling yours at all. (-:

 

warm regards

[Aaron]

I am not fond of the word main because it is used somewhat religiously like a moral precept you must follow this or do that. In my 'practice', I've not been around people who choose any particular word, so it's just doing something. I think all these things are self-help approaches. But if I were naturally accelerating my own death by my habits (and then I need to maybe ask how did those habits form, do I just call them 'natural') I might interfere with that and change something (ie: diet, exercise, etc). Somewhere in all this is some balance to what's going on not just outside of us but also inside of us.

 

I am also not overly fond of using 'non-interference' for Wu Wei since interference is going to naturally happen at times. Yes, I can see many practical applications of where not interfering is the natural course but as a translated term it seems then to be all-or-nothing. I think you may of been closer with exploring not being sentimental but then you said the bellows cannot be describe (describing is useless), which was what you were doing! So, maybe you would describe the bellows as not sentimental but in life maybe you find you are sentimental (not so useless)? Maybe all you mean is the the actually workings of the Dao is not able to be described but the bellows was given as LZ's example and now we're using physical examples.

 

Hi dawei,

 

I actually meant what I said. The chapter points out that sentimentality is not a product of nature, that allows us to understand that the "bellows" are not sentimental either. And no they cant be described. Anyways i'm out on my I-touch so I'll leave it there. God these screens were designed for someone with hands the size of a five year old.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

Cause and effect? Like action/outcome? I jump off a ledge, I will land somewhere. The moral 'rightness' or 'wrongness' of the action might not have much to do with the moral 'rightness or 'wrongness' of the outcome. [Nor the morality-aside 'rightness..etc]

 

Ah, but 'cause and effect' have no regard for human morality. You jump, you fly for a short while (straight down) then you suddenly stop when you make contact with the ground. That's the way life is. No morality except in the minds of some humans.

[Marblehead]

Hi dawei,

 

I actually meant what I said. The chapter points out that sentimentality is not a product of nature, that allows us to understand that the "bellows" are not sentimental either. And no they cant be described.

 

Aaron

 

I do agree with this.

[Guest allan]

[rene]

[Aaron]

[dawei]

Ah, but 'cause and effect' have no regard for human morality. You jump, you fly for a short while (straight down) then you suddenly stop when you make contact with the ground. That's the way life is. No morality except in the minds of some humans.

Yes, that was the direction I was taking it (how to phrase karma minus any morality) but I may of misunderstood the point they were making.

 

@Twinner: You keep saying it cannot be described and you keep describing it. So I am maybe just misunderstanding some points being made.

 

@Allen: It goes both ways or was that a Freudian slip; Maybe you don't want others to unintentionally disrupt your thoughts, beliefs, and ways of life. Joking aside. Hope you stick around the subforum.

[Aaron]

@Twinner: You keep saying it cannot be described and you keep describing it. So I am maybe just misunderstanding some points being made.

 

 

Hello Dawei,

 

I am referring to the descriptions of it in the Tao Teh Ching and I am not saying that you can't describe it, just that any description given will be inadequate. So yes you can describe it, but you can't. If that makes sense.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

Hello Dawei,

 

I am referring to the descriptions of it in the Tao Teh Ching and I am not saying that you can't describe it, just that any description given will be inadequate. So yes you can describe it, but you can't. If that makes sense.

 

Aaron

 

That is why I like the thought that we can discuss some of its characteristics but we cannot define it.

 

Dawei said: Yes, that was the direction I was taking it (how to phrase karma minus any morality) but I may of misunderstood the point they were making.

 

Indeed. It is very difficult to discuss concepts without applying human values to the discussion. When talking about Tao we must discuss it without human values of morality. However, when we talk about Te we can include these values.

 

Remember, most of the TTC is about Te, not Tao.

[rene]

Remember, most of the TTC is about Te, not Tao.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just playin' with ya.

Looking forward to the conversation. (-:

[dawei]

That is why I like the thought that we can discuss some of its characteristics but we cannot define it.

 

Dawei said: Yes, that was the direction I was taking it (how to phrase karma minus any morality) but I may of misunderstood the point they were making.

 

Indeed. It is very difficult to discuss concepts without applying human values to the discussion. When talking about Tao we must discuss it without human values of morality. However, when we talk about Te we can include these values.

 

Remember, most of the TTC is about Te, not Tao.

I follow that idea but it reminds me of Zhuang Zi "that and this"; so not sure I would would decouple "Dao" and "De" so easily. To me, "De" is the "Dao" in things.

 

Chapter 51:

 

Dao produces <-- Dao

Virtue rears <-- De (and anywhere below Virtue is used)

Forms appear

Circumstances complete <-- oldest manuscripts have meaning of 'inner capacity complete'

Thus it is: All beings

Venerate Dao and cherish Virtue.

 

Dao is honored and Virtue cherished,

Not by heaven’s mandate, but by nature’s processes

 

Thus: Dao gives life.

Virtue nurtures life, <-- oldest manuscripts omit ‘virtue’ and read as Dao as the source

Nourishes and sustains life,

Encloses and comforts life,

Fosters and protects life.

 

Giving life without making claim,

Acting without relying,

Guiding without ruling;

This is called deep Virtue.

Edited December 5, 2010 by dawei

[rene]

I follow that idea but it reminds me of Zhuang Zi "that and this"; so not sure I would would decouple "Dao" and "De" so easily. To me, "De" is the "Dao" in things.

 

Agree. De is the efficacy found as Dao arises.

[dawei]

[rene]