[TTC Study] Chapter 5 of the Tao Teh Ching

[strawdog65]

Nature is indeed impartial....

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNrRmsXMUOE&feature=related

[Marblehead]

Nature is indeed impartial....

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hNrRmsXMUOE&feature=related

 

That's a difficult condition of being to attain.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 5
天地不仁，
以萬物為芻狗。
聖人不仁，
以百姓為芻狗。
天地之間，
其猶橐籥乎﹖
虛而不屈，
動而愈出。
多言數窮，
不如守中。

Chapter 5
01. Heaven and Earth have no mercy,
02. Treating all things as straw dogs.
03. Sages have no mercy,
04. Treating people as straw dogs.
05. In-between-Heaven-and-Earth
06. Is like a wind box,
07. Vacuous but inexhaustible,
08. Dynamic but invigorating.
09. Excessive words accelerate failure.
10. Prefer to stay with vacuous quietness.

Edited November 1, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Nice translation. Thanks.

[Conwaypk]

Hey it's been a while since I've posted, but I'm back.

 

Verse 5.

 

Translation from Jonathan Star.

 

"Heaven and Earth have no preference

 

A man may choose one over another

but to Heaven and Earth all are the same

The high, the low, the great, the small -

all are given light,

all get a place to rest

 

The Sage is like Heaven and Earth

To him none are especially dear

nor is there anyone he disfavors

He gives and gives without condition

offering his treasure to everyone

 

The universe is like a bellows

It stays empty yet is never exhausted

It gives out yet always brings forth more

 

Man is not like this

When he blows out air like a bellows

he becomes exhausted

Man was not made to blow out air

He was made to sit quietly and find the truth within"

 

I've read the first 3 pages of posts and I want to ask about Karma. It is to my understanding that I have been greatly misunderstanding the concept of karma. I saw the Yin-Yang as the balance betwwen good and evil. I thought taoism was ALL about karma. If you do good, good things will happen. But me being the Christian I am, I have recently learned and started to believe that because I am God's creation, He can do whatever he wants to me!

 

About the verse. It means to me that, though man may have preference of things over other things, Heaven and Earth do not. Man does not know the truth of matters, cannot see the consequences of the choices before the choices are made. Nature, Heaven, and Earth, being not-human and therefore non-preferential, not necessarily don't >care<, but because they're emotionally detached, have no preference.

 

God knows the intention of man, where man does not know the intention of another man. This means to not judge. This means to not have preference. To give and give without conditiong (here comes a karma statement) and because I give out of the purity of my heart and not SEEKING reward, I am rewarded. It is very easy for me to just give and help others, and I never think of reward! My life is easy. I see the direct connection right there.

 

The ending of this verse is totally false. Man was not made to sit quietly. We were made to be active. Enlightenment comes through action (for me) not inaction. God created life to live, to experience, adventure, and explore. Not to not stray from what you know, not to stay within your comfortable boundaries. But to progress and push farther to become the strongest, most complete person you can. Why? Because life is forever, and I plan on living after death (Christian).

 

I can see the ending here trying to relate humans to the bellows in a sense, and that's fine. But we were not meant to stay still. The ONLY problem here is that there seems to be 1 all-encompassing RULE for everyone. No such thing - that's why I put 'to me' in parantheses. Because for someone else sitting still may be just what they need.

 

I should help a man in a business suit just as much as I should help a man with no home. And I should think no better or different of the two. I do just that - don't think differently of them. And I do good to everyone as a thanks to God for the many blessings in my life which He has given me.

 

I love combining Taoism and Christianity - it just seems to fit so well.

Edited June 11, 2011 by Conwaypk

[lienshan]

The Guodian chapter 5

 

Is the interval between heaven and earth equal to between a sack and a flute?

Emptiness and not boneless move and more and more sluice down.

 

 

The flute is a seven-hole bone gudi-flute. (a human being has too seven holes)

It symbolizes "sheng" (spirit) in the Da Yi Sheng Shui term "insight and spirit".

It's "not boneless" because it's made of bone but it's without a sceleton.

The related lines in Da Yi Sheng Shui:

 

That the sage follows duty does also rely on its name.

Therefore is the merit completed and himself not boned.

 

The return of heaven and earth mutually assist by completing insight and spirit.

What's insight and spirit is the birth of heaven and earth.

 

The sack and emptiness symbolize the "insight" of the term.

The related lines to "move" and "sluice down" are:

 

This is why the Great One conceals physical water and moves physical seasons.

Expentant and then this begins by itself to become the Mother of everything.

A lump of ability able to fill acts the envied being: the Union of everything.

 

It's a short chapter of only two lines but a Great One when knowing the target.

Edited August 4, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Henricks' translation of that has four lines:

 

1. The space between heaven and earth --

2 Is it not like a bellows?

3 Though it is empty it does not collapse;

4 When put into motion it sends forth all the more.

 

And here once again we see the word "empty". But is it really empty? Or is it full of potential?

[ChiDragon]

Henricks' translation of that has four lines:

 

1. The space between heaven and earth --

2 Is it not like a bellows?

3 Though it is empty it does not collapse;

4 When put into motion it sends forth all the more.

 

And here once again we see the word "empty". But is it really empty? Or is it full of potential?

 

1. The space between heaven and earth -- perhaps, it was considered to be vacuous. Is that different from "empty"...???

[lienshan]

Henricks' translation of that has four lines:

 

1. The space between heaven and earth --

Where's the verb of his socalled first line? And where's the logic of his translation?

 

The Mawangdui chapter 5

 

The use of heavenly malevolence is everything made strawdogs.

Holy men not benevolence use common people to make strawdogs.

Is the interval between heaven and earth equal to between a sack and a flute?

Emptiness and not boneless move and more and more sluice down.

More than words count the impoverished comparable to the center.

 

 

"tian di" means "heavenly" because the meaning "heaven and earth"

would demand a "zhi" character! "di" functions like "-ly" in english.

The second line has another structure, because "sheng" "holy" is an adjective.

[Marblehead]

1. The space between heaven and earth -- perhaps, it was considered to be vacuous. Is that different from "empty"...???

 

The word vacuous has negative connotations. That wouldn't be a good word either. In my mind there needs be a word here (to replace empty) that has positive connotations. "When put into motion it puts forth ..."

 

Perhaps it (the space between heaven and earth) is referring to the atmosphere. When the atmosphere is put into motion the sweet rain falls. And water, being the giver of life, well ...

[dawei]

The word vacuous has negative connotations. That wouldn't be a good word either. In my mind there needs be a word here (to replace empty) that has positive connotations. "When put into motion it puts forth ..."

 

Perhaps it (the space between heaven and earth) is referring to the atmosphere. When the atmosphere is put into motion the sweet rain falls. And water, being the giver of life, well ...

Well, one could use a more neutral word like "unoccupied" but let's remember that the picture is one of a "bellows"; so 'empty' is just it's momentary state.

 

Legge says it like this which does tie back as the motion of the bellows instead of just its state:

'Tis emptied, yet it loses not its power;

'Tis moved again, and sends forth air the more.

[Marblehead]

 

'Tis emptied, yet it loses not its power;

'Tis moved again, and sends forth air the more.

 

Almost pretty close. Hehehe. Is it ever emptied? Not really, I think, even though it may appear to be empty. (Ah!, the secret of the good traveller, to appear to be harmless.) Appearances are important in life.

 

Pardon my random thoughts. Hehehe.

 

Perhaps it is a good thing that I do not read Chinese. I would likely worry myself into a fit trying to find the 'best' words to use to translate with.

[ChiDragon]

Perhaps it is a good thing that I do not read Chinese. I would likely worry myself into a fit trying to find the 'best' words to use to translate with.

 

Yes, you lucky son of a gun.

 

How about the word "hollow"....???

 

I think "empty" is the closest word.

[dawei]

Almost pretty close. Hehehe. Is it ever emptied? Not really, I think, even though it may appear to be empty. (Ah!, the secret of the good traveller, to appear to be harmless.) Appearances are important in life.

 

Pardon my random thoughts. Hehehe.

 

Perhaps it is a good thing that I do not read Chinese. I would likely worry myself into a fit trying to find the 'best' words to use to translate with.

Anyone whow knows a bellows knows it doesn't truly empty; that's the benefit of a metaphor

 

But you make me realize that even as a metaphor, "empty" is really empty of meaning on a certain level because, in fact, the space between heaven and earth never exhibits that characteristic. A bellows "looks" empty when emptied but the space does not follow that metaphor really. You've made me realize that the traditional "word for word" translation of this part is maybe missing the point. Have to think about this.

Edited August 5, 2011 by dawei

[dawei]

I had to re-read 9 pages to realize what I'll contradict myself on before I comment more

 

But I do want to explore an angle I have always consciously chosen to ignore about the ubiquitous translations as "Bellow".

 

Wang Bi, whom I am most often wont to not follow has a different take to the word most often translated as "bellows". Due to the juxtaposition of Heaven and Earth; and Heaven and Earth vs Sage as indifferent, he says: -- Tr. Wagner

 

he sees the compound word normally translated as "Bellows" to be separately translated as "Drum and Flute". This actually tends to agree with a lot of pre-han usage of the words which are often used in relation to music.

 

The space between Heaven and Earth is like a drum or flute.

 

Drum: The more it is beaten, the more sounds come out of it. The drum has no activity of it's own to create this resonance rather than another.

 

Flute: Flutes are hallow. The flute has no feeling of it's own to prefer one sound over the other.

 

The flute is hallow but it is impossible to exhaust it. The Drum all the beating notwithstanding, is inexhaustible.

 

In the space between heaven and earth that-which-is-of-itself-what-it-is [of all entities] is put grandly into effect. This is why the space between heaven and earth is inexhaustible like a flute and a drum.

 

Later he brings drum and flute back in to explain the last line.

 

Honestly, a picture of a drum and flute with their hollow inside which is always ready to produce sound is an obvious choice over bellows (ie: the last line has 守中-preserve the inner aspect).

 

I now think a translation as "The Space between Heaven and Earth" is the idea to think about but it may mean how Heaven and Earth are the container for the space, same as an instrument has the space contained in order to produce music.

天地之間

Heaven Earth of Middle/Space/During/Within/Pass Through

 

I think the average person would understand a musical instruction metaphor more than a bellows.

[lienshan]

Henricks' translation of that has four lines:

 

1. The space between heaven and earth --

2 Is it not like a bellows?

Henricks makes a logical mistake in his translation,

when comparing a subject between two objects to another subject.

 

Doing so is called comparing apples to pears in my native language.

 

So Laozi is by logic comparing a subject between two objects

to another subject between two other objects!

 

Henricks subject translation of "tuo yue" as "a bellows" is therefore wrong.

The two characters "tuo yue" represent two objects with an interval.

A sack and a flute according to the dictionaires.

 

"The interval between a sack and a flute" is ofcourse pure nonsense like

"the interval between heaven and earth" is pure nonsense; that's the pointe!

 

Referring to the Da Yi Sheng Shui nonsense:

 

Heaven and earth are nominated side by side independently.

Therefore perform their two boats in line not cultivated together.

Edited August 5, 2011 by lienshan

[dawei]

Your making the mistake of looking at the wrong dictionary and not in context.

 

橐: It is a "sac-tube for blowing air into a fire"; ergo, it is the same idea of enclosed air in a flute which is blown!

 

But it can mean a sac-tube or covering or a drum. If used with a flute it can mean as a compound, 橐籥: a "sac-tubed-flute".

 

If you understood why they translate it as "bellows" (blowing air into a furnace with an instrument) you would not come up with ideas like "sack" as a nonsense translation.

 

I know you are better than this.

Edited August 5, 2011 by dawei

[lienshan]

Your making the mistake of looking at the wrong dictionary and not in context.

 

橐: It is a "sac-tube for blowing air into a fire"

The Guodian version has another character "guan" instead of "yue":

 

http://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&char=%E7%AE%A1

 

And the ancient Shuo Wen dictionary explanation of "guan" is "a 7-holed flute".

[dawei]

The Guodian version has another character "guan" instead of "yue":

 

http://ctext.org/dictionary.pl?if=en&char=%E7%AE%A1

 

And the ancient Shuo Wen dictionary explanation of "guan" is "a 7-holed flute".

 

Seven holed flute from neolithic sites?

 

 

Your too confused here:

 

管 - Guan IS NOT a character in any LZ manuscript. If you search the website you provided, that character is NOT used in DDJ5.

 

 

籥 - Yue is found in the MWDA and onward. It is a seal character.

 

 

龠 - Yue is found in the Guodian. It is an oracle bone character.

 

---

 

I was talking about Tuo 橐 and it's potential meaning, if it was separated from Yue.

 

So I am not sure why you quoted me in response but it seems not right.

Edited August 5, 2011 by dawei

[lienshan]

Your making the mistake of looking at the wrong dictionary and not in context.

The context is in my way of reading this Da Yi Sheng Shui scheme:

 

The Great One = The Mother and Union of everything

heaven and earth = two independents

insight and spirit

yin and yang = two not completeable

 

This inability to kill heaven and inability to bury earth

is the inability to complete yin and yang.

 

My way of understanding the symbols of Laozi's chapter five:

 

insight = an empty sack

spirit = a 7-holed flute

 

Holy men not benevolence use common people to make strawdogs. means to me:

 

That Laozi points at the lack of human's physical existence in the scheme.

That not words but physical existing humans cause troubles to others.

That "holy" is nothing but a word that the not holy use as a title.

The number of people slaughtered in "holy" wars is uncountable.

[dawei]

 

My way of understanding the symbols of Laozi's chapter five:

I am not into DaVinci Code Conspiracy Theory on the Lao Zi.

 

Half the time your not talking even plan or intelligible english. There is no grammar or understanding. Maybe that is what you want? But you need to realize that nobody can discuss anything with you because of some of these issues. Maybe that is what you want?

 

If this is what you want, then it is just spam writing. But again, I think you are better than this but I can't offer any discussion.

 

This is a very specific subforum for discussion on Dao and other topics. Not a spam folder to dump anything you can come up with.

[lienshan]

[ChiDragon]

dawei...

Thanks for your advice: not to respond..... :D

Edited August 5, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

I didn't respond either. Hehehe.

[dawei]

I didn't respond either. Hehehe.

Ok. I am outvoted. I'll third the silent treatment approach