[TTC Study] Chapter 5 of the Tao Teh Ching

[XieJia]

It is always a delight to read your post David.

I have a Buddhist-tinted view, so I read it this way.

The 中 (center) means much but yet nothing without a reference ;P.

Edited December 24, 2012 by XieJia

[dawei]

After several years and 30 pages of discussion.... I have finally arrived at what "Bu Ren" means.

 

I had previously put forth the most direct translation: Not [Ren]... Not the Confucian ideal of Virtue or Human-kindness...

 

All we need to do is look at the next line to see what kind of REN is spoken of.... those involving straw dogs.

 

Ancestor sacrifices for the purposes of worshipping the dead !

 

 

Heaven, Earth, Man (Sage) do not perform the ancestral sacrifices for the worship of the dead.

[Marblehead]

I think that any time we inject Confucian concepts into Taoist Philosophy we are making a mistake. (I feel the same way about Buddhist concepts.)

 

 

Interesting yow your first three paragraphs led to the last two. "To honor" is very different from "to worship".

[Harmonious Emptiness]

After several years and 30 pages of discussion.... I have finally arrived at what "Bu Ren" means.

 

I had previously put forth the most direct translation: Not [Ren]... Not the Confucian ideal of Virtue or Human-kindness...

 

All we need to do is look at the next line to see what kind of REN is spoken of.... those involving straw dogs.

 

Ancestor sacrifices for the purposes of worshipping the dead !

 

 

Heaven, Earth, Man (Sage) do not perform the ancestral sacrifices for the worship of the dead.

 

I would argue somewhat to the inverse if taking this line of translation. In other words: "Neither Heaven, Earth, nor the Sage have partiality in their humaneness. All people are treated (with) straw dogs."

 

The straw dog ceremony was akin to the Christian "last rights" in a way, to absolve the person of their sins (earthly human weaknesses, evil qi). This ceremony is common to all people around the world in one way or another. So Heaven, Earth, and the Sage absolve all people of their wrong doings (and accumulations of evil qi) after the time of their death, regardless of any status and affiliations.

[dawei]

I would argue somewhat to the inverse if taking this line of translation. In other words: "Neither Heaven, Earth, nor the Sage have partiality in their humaneness. All people are treated (with) straw dogs."

 

The straw dog ceremony was akin to the Christian "last rights" in a way, to absolve the person of their sins (earthly human weaknesses, evil qi). This ceremony is common to all people around the world in one way or another. So Heaven, Earth, and the Sage absolve all people of their wrong doings (and accumulations of evil qi) after the time of their death, regardless of any status and affiliations.

 

that is an interesting take with the way you tie in religion.

 

An issue often not discussed is that Straw Dogs go back to the Yellow Emperor's time and was hung on the door as a reminder.... makes me think of the lamb's blood on the door...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

that is an interesting take with the way you tie in religion.

 

An issue often not discussed is that Straw Dogs go back to the Yellow Emperor's time and was hung on the door as a reminder.... makes me think of the lamb's blood on the door...

A reminder to "enjoy this trip while it lasts?"

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Going to re-post this here, from my Personal Practice Discussion:

 

[to explain why lines 5-10 are relevant to lines 1 to 4 of Chapter 5]

 

 

They function both separately, and together.

 

As I was explaining earlier, the chapter is about not having this contrived humanity which relies on formalities. Confucius' humanity/ren reflected his proximity to the court, and the formalities of the court, which were also part of rites and paying respects to ancestors. I say this because, even though The Dao De Jing may have been written before the Confucian Analects, when Confucius talked about "ren/humanity," he was talking about "ren/humanity" as it was understood by the court in which, and to which, he was a counsellor.

 

What I said earlier (post #9) was:

 

"lines 05-10 refer to being "empty" of "logical, hierarchical, humanity," which the sage does not need as he can be "empty without being finished." and does not need to rely on "so many countless words" but rather finds his humanity at the "center."

 

 

Here is lines 05-10 with some (of my) commentary:

 

05 天地之間,

The space of (between) heaven and earth

(where does ci/love, true humanity, reside? between the space of heaven and earth)

 

06 其猶橐籥乎

Is like (the lungs, or) a bag-pipe

(literally referring to a chinese bag pipe, but figuratively suggesting the action of our lungs, which fill naturally, just as ci/love comes naturally to the spirit)

 

07 虛而不屈,

Empty without being finished

(in ci/love, one gives even when they have nothing)

 

08 動而愈出。

["movement yet more produced"]

Rather than being exhausted by movement, the movement only generates more and more of what it produces

(the more one loves, the more they will love)

 

09 多言數窮,

So many countless words…

(ci/love can't be "formalized")

 

10 不如守中。

Nothing like nurturing the center

(formalities do not nurture the center, and they don't resemble the true sentiment of humanity, nor do they resemble ci/love which comes from nurturing the center like a hen nurtures her eggs [守 = roof over the small])

[dawei]

As I was explaining earlier, the chapter is about not having this contrived humanity which relies on formalities. Confucius' humanity/ren reflected his proximity to the court, and the formalities of the court, which were also part of rites and paying respects to ancestors. I say this because, even though The Dao De Jing may have been written before the Confucian Analects, when Confucius talked about "ren/humanity," he was talking about "ren/humanity" as it was understood by the court in which, and to which, he was a counsellor.

 

Realize that the Guodian Laozi was found buried among many 'confucian' texts. The phrase Confucian does not really mean that Confucius had to write it, just as daoist texts pre-date Laozi. What both of them excelled at was making past ideas readable for the masses.

 

Confucius look at the Zhou rites as the golden age, and to the past Sage-Kings as those who embodied the most important virtues. So the idea of employing rites and virtues goes back a far way in courts.

[flowing hands]

Chapter 5 whats it about?

 

Formlessness............form, the two are the same, each is dependent on the other to exist. Formlessness/emptiness exists in form and form exists in emptiness. The key to understanding ones own existence and form and the form of other life. We grow and form a substance around emptiness, emptiness exists within us.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Chapter 5 whats it about?

 

Formlessness............form, the two are the same, each is dependent on the other to exist. Formlessness/emptiness exists in form and form exists in emptiness. The key to understanding ones own existence and form and the form of other life. We grow and form a substance around emptiness, emptiness exists within us.

I agree and thanks for adding that. What I would say is, Chapter Five shows that, in this reality being the case, the standardized rules of humanity are no longer necessary when one "nurtures the center" and lives from this center, rather than living by the "forms" and "words" of court values.

 

 

Realize that the Guodian Laozi was found buried among many 'confucian' texts. The phrase Confucian does not really mean that Confucius had to write it, just as daoist texts pre-date Laozi. What both of them excelled at was making past ideas readable for the masses.

 

Confucius look at the Zhou rites as the golden age, and to the past Sage-Kings as those who embodied the most important virtues. So the idea of employing rites and virtues goes back a far way in courts.

Exactly. Thanks for adding that.

[silent thunder]

As simply as I can state it, my take on ch 5 is:

 

Be in the world, not of it. Awareness without attachment.

Impartiality that implies not taking anything personally.

Neither contempt for things as lower, nor worship of others as higher.

Full awareness and complete acceptance.

 

The conditions of experiential Tao involve no judgement, no value. Te.

 

This thought occurred to me once when in meditation and I think it could apply here:

Nature takes no pains to explain herself, yet she spares no pains to ensure she's understood.

Things will play out as Te springs from Tao.

Whether we 'get it' or not, nor how we judge it, the conditions of Te play out from Tao and our 'take' on it is irrelevant (except to us).

[ChiDragon]

天地不仁
以萬物為芻狗
Heaven and Earth have no mercy
Treat all things as straw dogs

Nature has no mercy(不仁) in its action. Lightning, from Heaven, does not select a spot to strike. The flood, on Earth, will destroy anything in its path emotionless. Nature will take its course regardless. Hence, Nature is impartial.

Edited November 1, 2013 by ChiDragon

[ChiDragon]

天地之間

其猶橐籥
Between heaven and earth
It's like a bellows
虛而不屈
動而愈出
Vacuous but inexhaustible
Dynamic but invigorating

Edited November 2, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[A repost from my PPD and another conversation, perhaps best dicussed here]

 

 

 

In response to a question by Stosh about the intended meaning of Chapter 5:

 

 

To look at only that chapter and disregard everything else in the text was not intended.

 

Benevolence/ren had a lot to do with recognizing authority and filial affection (which was perhaps redefined as filial-obligation following Confucianism) towards elders. This was not the invention of Confucius, to care for the old as we care for the young and call this benevolence.

 

Dao does not recognize hierarchical respects and privileges. Dao is the Great Ultimate.

When the Sage acts from Dao, there are no elders or authorities.

 

Chuang Tzu, in talking about the sage's interaction with emperors says "bring him Dao," showing the character of the sage, who is fully himself and brings his true nature to the emperor like water flows downstream.

 

 

 

My more recent reflection on the later part of the chapter:

 

1. Heaven and Earth are not ren;
2. They regard the the thousand things as straw dogs.
3. The Sage is not ren;
4. He regards the common people as straw dogs.

 

5. The space between Heaven and Earth—is it not like a bellow?
6. It is empty and yet not depleted;
7. Move it and more [always] comes out.
8. Much learning means frequent exhaustions.
9. That's not so good as holding on to the mean.

 

(Henricks trans.)

 

It’s important to recognize the poetic ingenuity of the Dao De Jing, which is comparable to the openness of meaning found in the I Ching even. Being familiar with the culture of meaning-associations present in Daoist culture, it's easy enough to fathom the presence of many levels of meaning in any chapter of The Classic of Dao and De.

 

Straw dogs were burned. How do you ensure they burn well in ancient China? With a BELLOWS.

Straw dogs were burned in place of living dogs as sacrifices to Heaven and Earth.

 

The sage is like Dao, the space between heaven and earth (partially referring to Dao) is like a bellows, so the sage is also like a bellows.

 

The bellows blows on the straw dogs to send up the offering.

The sages’ duties essentially involve being covert wu wei leaders of humanity who lead by example and aid in the harmonic alignment of Heaven, Humanity, and Earth.

In the same way that the bellows’ wind blows on the straw offerings, the sages’ cosmic virtue has it’s effortless force which influences the harmony between Heaven, Earth, and Humanity. This is the sages’ offering. Like Native Americans, the sages’ offerings to the Great Ultimate are of their own effort or body, rather than simply offering things which already belong to Heaven and Earth (see Lame Deer “Seeker of Visions). The sage’s virtue is also like a bellows. There is much more being said here that “is not being said.”

 

 

Another side/direction of meaning:

 

The chapter speaks to the transiency of life. “From ashes to ashes.” We are always aging. Heaven is always moving and sometimes (by hurricanes or destiny, for example) expediating that process. The space between Heaven and Earth is, thus, like a bellows, and all beneath it will always pass “from dust to dust.”

 

 

6. It is empty and yet not depleted;
7. Move it and more [always] comes out.
8. Much learning means frequent exhaustions.
9. That's not so good as holding on to the mean.

 

In addition, the barrage of tests that heaven and destiny affords us will never run out. No amount of cleverness will outsmart the Dao. It’s best not to try, but to just go with whatever heaven affords you. This of course includes going with the opportunities presented to you.

[flowing hands]

Forgive the pun, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with the "straw Dogs"

[Marblehead]

Forgive the pun, I think you're barking up the wrong tree with the "straw Dogs"

Are you suggesting that straw dogs don't live in trees?

 

 

Actually, I have a problem with the Sage treating the people as straw dogs. Nature? Sure, no problem there. But the Sage makes choices.

[dawei]

Straw dogs were burned. How do you ensure they burn well in ancient China? With a BELLOWS.

Straw dogs were burned in place of living dogs as sacrifices to Heaven and Earth.

 

The sage is like Dao, the space between heaven and earth (partially referring to Dao) is like a bellows, so the sage is also like a bellows.

 

The bellows blows on the straw dogs to send up the offering.

The sages’ duties essentially involve being covert wu wei leaders of humanity who lead by example and aid in the harmonic alignment of Heaven, Humanity, and Earth.

In the same way that the bellows’ wind blows on the straw offerings, the sages’ cosmic virtue has it’s effortless force which influences the harmony between Heaven, Earth, and Humanity. This is the sages’ offering. Like Native Americans, the sages’ offerings to the Great Ultimate are of their own effort or body, rather than simply offering things which already belong to Heaven and Earth (see Lame Deer “Seeker of Visions). The sage’s virtue is also like a bellows. There is much more being said here that “is not being said.”

 

 

What is often forgotten about the straw dog ritual is why were the straw dogs burnt? The answer that they have exhausted their use is only indirectly correct. The reason is because they contain the sickness or disease or dangerous entity they were meant to absorb off the deceased. The only proper thing to do with such an item would be to burn it to ensure it is not used again or is exposed to anyone else. This ultimately seems to have little connection with bellows.

 

The main issue which I keep coming back to on the 'straw dogs' is whether it has been obscured over the years which I tend towards... Even Wang Bi disagreed with the ritual aspect and seemed to say it should be "straw AND dogs".

 

A lost meaning of Straw Dogs goes back to Huang Di's time... the were hung over doors as protection much like the lambs blood over the doors in the old testament story, so that death would pass by them.

 

I am also suspicious of the fact that the Guodian doesn't have the straw dog part...

[dawei]

Actually, I have a problem with the Sage treating the people as straw dogs. Nature? Sure, no problem there. But the Sage makes choices.

 

It is really meant to be a reflection of the Sage's Wu Wei in regards to nature and people.

 

As Dao provides a blueprint for the arising, the Sage is an imprint for that which has arisen. In both case, Dao and the Sage have the same function in the assisting of the self-becoming of all things. This is done without favoritism or preferential treatment... All things are viewed equally.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, you said it a lot nicer and in a manner I can accept. I think there is still more to the "straw dogs" than is with the current line of thinking.

 

I can't remember a single story where any of Chuang Tzu's sages treated anyone as a piece of useless trash.

 

Yes, I can handle the "without favoritism or preferential treatment". Afterall, that is true compassion and charity.

 

True, "All things are viewed equally." but not thrown into the gutter after the ceremony is over.

 

Oh well, maybe I'll feel more comfortable with it after another twenty or thirty years.

[Marblehead]

And I still have a problem with Flowing Hands' version that he posted in the "Shamanism" thread.

 

Maybe I'll just erase the first four lines of that chapter. Hehehe.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Marblehead

[dawei]

The sage’s virtue is also like a bellows. There is much more being said here that “is not being said.”

 

One idea I suddenly had was to look at the first part as a reference to heart-mind-spirit (UDT) and the second part as a reference to the alchemy process of the body's Qi (LDT).

[dawei]

Yeah, you said it a lot nicer and in a manner I can accept. I think there is still more to the "straw dogs" than is with the current line of thinking.

 

I can't remember a single story where any of Chuang Tzu's sages treated anyone as a piece of useless trash.

 

I agree that the current line feels forced... and when that happens we are right to keep searching and being open.

[Marblehead]

I went back to HE's post #240 and I think he might be on to something. I will read it again, and again, if necessary. He might be stretching the rubber band a little too far though.

[Daeluin]

16 pages in, may as well add my own humble thoughts.

 

Which starts with a simplified understanding of taoist cosmology. This is simplified and from my own perspective, so please be gentle:

 

-----------------------------

 

From absolute nothingness, something is born, and we have duality. And yet duality can only exist by that which holds it together, and so we have a 3rd in between. Precluding spacial existence, we have change within duality, yet no space and no form.

 

Duality itself polarizes and becomes 4, and spacial dimension is conceived of, perhaps. Naturally this duality has a center as well, the 5th. Think on a caltrop:

 

 

A 3 pointed object is flat. Any depth to it implies a 4th direction. The interesting thing about this object is the harmony. None of the points are in opposition to each other, but form a harmonious relationship.

 

Thus we have our two polarities in this conceptual framework, united as one by the center. Here we have the five phases, and as the principle of yin and yang applies to them, they change and transform without attaching to their present states. This principle can be seen in light, which splits in a prism into different shapes and colors, and transforms as it passes through other objects instantly.

 

Then comes six, and to my mind a fundamental crystallization occurs. We define attachment. Separation between inside and outside, self and other. I doubt I would be able to explain this rationally to scientific minds, so please explore on your own. To my mind, this is seen in the six directions of energy, the six types of qi between heaven and earth as described in the Zhuangzi and this chapter. The six pointed star, which is box-like and involves 3 directly opposing polarities connected at the center - a very rigid shape. In taoist numerology, 6 is the yin of water, the number of hexagram lines, etc.

 

And so on, until 10,000 things.

 

But in my basic understanding of this, I like to think this principle of 5 follows the more spiritual, Heavenly aspect of creation, and the principle of 6 follows the more physical mass aspect of creation. Really I suspect spirit also has some level of self-other, but in relation to mass I think these principles can be used to understand the fundamental difference between Heaven and Earth.

 

------------------------------

 

So in the TTC, we have these notions of Heaven and Earth being impartial, Earth following Heaven and Man following Earth and Heaven, etc. When I think on these chapters from the lens of the above principles, it seem pretty simple for me to understand.

 

Heaven is not (as) attached to change or choice of change and simply adapts and transforms based on the given situation. Earth contains the principles by which Heaven works, but also works in terms of attachment. Even still matter impacts matter and change unfolds, gravities draw in, compress, and the five phases create the myriad elements of the periodic table.

 

In between Heaven and Earth, life is born. Spirit and Body mix, Heaven and Earth merge. We are one of many manifestations of this, whereby Heaven is able to gain perspective of Self and Other and enact deliberate change due to the framework, attached nature and perspective of Earth.

 

And there-in lies the key.

 

The tao lies between, in the balance between. Just as life is created in the between, when we explore what is between our self and the other with, we slip into the Mysterious Boundary. When we use our ability to control our environment based on principles of the 6, we are like a rock smashing against other rocks, breaking up and creating ripples of cause and effect. The more we make attachments in our lives, the more we become more Earth-like and less Heaven-like, forming rigid views of life with no flexibility. The more we flow and follow our bliss, just wanting to have fun but ignoring the practicalities of grounding, economic responsibilities, thoughts on our future in mortal bodies, etc, the more Heaven-like we become.

 

Thus the Sage remains impartial, avoids causing ripples or attachments, dissolves polarities and so slips between the boundaries of the existence and interplay of Heaven and Earth.

 

 

1. Heaven and Earth are not ren;
2. They regard the the thousand things as straw dogs.
3. The Sage is not ren;
4. He regards the common people as straw dogs.

 

5. The space between Heaven and Earth—is it not like a bellow?
6. It is empty and yet not depleted;
7. Move it and more [always] comes out.
8. Much learning means frequent exhaustions.
9. That's not so good as holding on to the mean.

 

A bellows works in one direction. It breathes in outside air, but doesn't exhale in the same direction. I exhales internally, and fans the flames, which radiate out.

 

In inner alchemy, one turns the focus of mind around and sends it inward to the lower tan tien. The energy goes in and becomes compressed. When it is full it radiates out as light. Just like our example of the bellows. The air (qi) goes in one direction, and the light is the accomplishment.

 

This is the principle of Superior Te vs Inferior Te. When we work like the bellows, our light manifests and our power is expressed naturally. When we use our power externally instead of internally, we become exhausted.

 

-------------------------

 

In any case, this is only how I view things. Thus far it helps me with understanding taoist principles, but no doubt I'm off track in at least a few ways. These are only unrefined principles and constructs, not polished truths. I realize they are probably a bit of a leap from the conventional understandings. I don't mean to confuse anyone, I just wanted to share what helps me. To me, looking at it from this perspective, it all just lines up and the different ways this chapter is translated don't seem to matter much after that.

Edited July 25, 2014 by Daeluin

[ChiDragon]

If straw dog = straw and dog, then
monkey brain = monkey and brain...???