[TTC Study] Chapter 5 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Excellent info. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

[dawei]

Excellent info. Thanks for taking the time to do that.

 

Yes... now we're getting somewhere once we can get outside of a single book and see the history which leads up and influences it

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Another reflection on the "straw dogs" part here:

 

The sage realizes that all beings belong to Heaven and so reveres them as such.

 

This could be seen, for example, in the original line for I Ching hexagram 20, Wind over Earth, Observing.

 

"Observing, one has washed the hands but not made the offering. There is sincerity, which is reverent."

 

This shows the demeanor with which one approaches that which belongs to heaven. The sage knows that he too belongs to Heaven, and that we all belong to Heaven to the same degree that the cells in our body belong to us.

 

The Sage does not serve man, he first serves Heaven, and in first serving Heaven also serves man as man belongs to Heaven. He has kindness and love for all people (see DDJ49), but his portioning out of this kindness and love adheres to the will of Heaven and not of humanity. When serving the will of man, it is simply a byproduct of his serving Heaven.

 

This is why the sage is not "ren."

 

Also, if the sage were "ren," in the traditional way of practicing it - he would make all types of sacrifices for powerful people as would be his duty in serving the hierarchies. So, saying that the sage is "not ren," imo, would suggest that he doesn't serve the hierarchies by making these sacrifices, sacrifices which attempt to "coerce" Heaven rather than simply serving it's natural will.

[dust]

天地之間亓猷囤籥與 The space between Heaven and Earth is like a bellows,

虛而不屈動而愈出 Empty but never breathless, increasing as it goes

 

 

(my GD..)

 

One point: "breathless" is a bit of a stretch linguistically -- others have used "inexhaustible" -- but I think it works. We're talking about air, and about the bellows never releasing or losing or giving up all the air... never running out. But as it's an organic, almost living process that we're talking about, I think the idea of breath adds some poetic-ness

 

edit: and oh, what a lovely short chapter. Just right for today.

Edited October 31, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I was slow at grasping the significance of these two lines the first couple times I read them.

 

And, of course, empty space is really not empty.

 

But the bellows is a perfect example because every time it is used it is replenished.

 

And I agree, breathless might be stretching a bit. Jerry Lee Lewis was breathless. But breathless suggests someone or some thing is breathing and we don't want to be personifying Tao.

[dust]

You make a good point.

 

Not breathless, then. Perhaps stick to inexhaustible.

 

edit: I had thought, "Empty but never emptied" ...?

Edited October 31, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Marblehead]

You make a good point.

 

Not breathless, then. Perhaps stick to inexhaustible.

 

edit: I had thought, "Empty but never emptied" ...?

Yes, "empty" would be good because we know that empty space really isn't empty. There are all sorts of things going on in there.

[dust]

The character 屈 was, apparently, originally a pictograph of someone squatting and taking a dump, so something along the lines of "empty" might also be used to refer to that

[dawei]

天地之間亓猷囤籥與 The space between Heaven and Earth is like a bellows,

虛而不屈動而愈出 Empty but never breathless, increasing as it goes

 

 

(my GD..)

 

One point: "breathless" is a bit of a stretch linguistically -- others have used "inexhaustible" -- but I think it works. We're talking about air, and about the bellows never releasing or losing or giving up all the air... never running out. But as it's an organic, almost living process that we're talking about, I think the idea of breath adds some poetic-ness

 

edit: and oh, what a lovely short chapter. Just right for today.

 

That is a good self-check for a translation... a bellows does not 'breath'... so how can it be breathless... but it breaths in a way we do understand... So I personally think its function is more important than the idea of breathing.

[Marblehead]

The character 屈 was, apparently, originally a pictograph of someone squatting and taking a dump, so something along the lines of "empty" might also be used to refer to that

Can something sound wrong and right at the same time?