De, Morality, and the Tao Teh Ching

[Aaron]

I was going to wait to start this discussion until the first time it comes up in the Chapter Study of the Tao Teh Ching (well clearly arises), but with the ongoing discussion in Chapter 5, I thought there might be a time and place for it in the here and now. So I propose that we examine this question and try to find evidence to support the advocation or discouragement of Morality, as it's presented within the Tao Teh Ching.

 

Anyone who knows me, knows that I have a strong disagreement with the notion that the Tao Teh Ching advocates morality, or the notion that men should cling to morality, my own opinion, which I will hold off providing evidence to for now, is that the Tao Teh Ching is about Dao and that from Dao springs De, which, although defined as virture, isn't necessarily morality, but rather a natural way of being that springs forth when one is on the path of the Tao (not necessarily the best example, but the easiest way to understand it).

 

With that in mind, De is not ethics, nor is it laws or moralistic behavior, that stems from the idea of right and wrong, but rather the natural way that people behave when left to themselves. When it speaks of virtue, it isn't speaking of a virtue that is meant to benefit man first and nature second, but rather a virtue that works in conjunction with all things, that when one practices this virtue, they practice it in a way that is seperate from self, and rather views the self as part of the whole, in other words I is not just me, but everything that exists.

 

If I practice the virtue of I, in the universal sense, then I realize that, even if I place my own desires last, that I am placing my own well-being first, because my well-being is intrinsically tied to the wellbeing of everything in existence.

 

One cannot practice De, or virtue, without first understanding Tao, hence in order to practice Te, one must first practice Tao, not in the sense that one practices anything, but rather that they are aware of the Tao and rather than work against it (that is to say one could work against it), they work with it.

 

In that sense man is like a water bug in a brook. If the water bug goes against the flow of the water, it tires itself out and dies, but if it accepts the flow of the water as being undeniable, then it allows itself to be guided by the water.

 

If, like the bug, I watch the way things happen and participate, not in opposition, but in harmony, then my actions are not only possible on a cosmic sense, but also harmonious. Everything I need to do can get done, because I see my needs as being determined by the flow of the water. I am small, the water is massive and undeniable, to see my needs as being in opposition of the universe, is like trying to exist in a vacuum without air, I might survive for a small period of time, but once I stop holding my breath, I suffocate.

 

With that in mind, De is the actions that stem from my knowledge, which really is only partly knowledge, but also my experience within the water, something that becomes almost instinctual, a way of being that depends on the water and the flow of the water to exist. Hence Dao begets De, not the other way around.

 

I think the problem that many people have is that they assume that one starts out by practicing De, and from De they beget Tao, and perhaps that can be done, but only if one can see De and understand why De is being practiced. I can observe someone practicing Tao, see the De as it manifests in them and immitate that De, and by virtue of imitation practice De, but without immersing myself in the Tao, getting in the water, I will never clearly understand the principles of Tao or the actual virtue of virtue.

 

Anyways this is getting long and I really only wanted to start the conversation and hear what others had to say. So with that, I'll stop there and look forward to your comments.

 

Aaron

 

Edited- This post was moved by me to the general discussion forum.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Hi Aaron,

 

I just made four posts the the Chapter Five thread concerning this concept.

 

Yes, hehehe, that was a long post, many concepts contained within.

 

But at this point all I will say in response to your post is that this is exactly why I speak to the concept of Te at two different levels. Virtue (Cap "V") is the Way of Tao, and virtue (lower "v") is the Way of man. Virtue (Cap "V") has nothing to do with morality. Morality applies to only the virtue of man.

[Vajrahridaya]

But at this point all I will say in response to your post is that this is exactly why I speak to the concept of Te at two different levels. Virtue (Cap "V") is the Way of Tao, and virtue (lower "v") is the Way of man. Virtue (Cap "V") has nothing to do with morality. Morality applies to only the virtue of man.

 

Yes, that's interesting. The process of the Way of things is impersonal and only personalized through sentient beings.

[Marblehead]

The process of the Way of things is impersonal and only personalized through sentient beings.

 

Yep. And this understanding negates any need to try to justify why shit happens. But that's another story.

[manitou]

Also, most of us when we were young were brought up by the idea that "being good" (as determined by our parents or teachers or churches that we were dragged to) is an evaluation that is made by our superiors (parents, etc). It was something that was determined and outlined by others.

To wear the Tao (and strengthen Te) the virtue we practice is one of our own determination, not the determination of others. Our model is the earth and the cosmos. Our model is the law of nature. And our model is the Sage. The words of another can be adopted or rejected as we see fit, because we are our own moral compass. I am "moral" because this is the best way to live. I've lived the other life. I've lived in immorality and selfishness when I was younger. This way is so much gentler, so much kinder, and so much more realistic.

[Marblehead]

Also, most of us when we were young were brought up by the idea that "being good" (as determined by our parents or teachers or churches that we were dragged to) is an evaluation that is made by our superiors (parents, etc). It was something that was determined and outlined by others.

To wear the Tao (and strengthen Te) the virtue we practice is one of our own determination, not the determination of others. Our model is the earth and the cosmos. Our model is the law of nature. And our model is the Sage. The words of another can be adopted or rejected as we see fit, because we are our own moral compass. I am "moral" because this is the best way to live. I've lived the other life. I've lived in immorality and selfishness when I was younger. This way is so much gentler, so much kinder, and so much more realistic.

 

Exactly. That is how it is stated in Chapter 25, Lines 11 & 12 (Wayne Wang translation):

 

Man follows earth.

Earth follows heaven.

Heaven follows Tao.

Tao follows Tzujan.

 

Now, don't think that we are promised a Rose Garden. The way of earth is not always gentle as can be seen simply by observation.

 

But, as you said, we who follow the Way of Tao understand this and because of this we are more aware of the true realities of life. We follow the path because we want to, not because we were raised that way or because we were told to do so.

 

We understand that life is going to treat us like strawdogs on occasion. But when the rains fall we too will be washed clean.

 

Our virtue (morality) is based upon what we have determined is best for us in order to live as peaceful a life as possible. We each establish our own virtue, or at least, we should. But along with that is the requirement to take full responsibility for our own action. This is the only way we will ever find our heaven before we die. (Can't be blaming the shit that happens in our life on karma.) We are free to determine our own fate.

[rene]

Questions for the learned ones -

 

Is there a chinese character for Virtue? (the societal moralistic kind of virtue)

 

Is it a different character than the one used for De?

 

If it's the same character, is this (yet another) case of LZ choosing one (commonly used) character to point at something else?

(like he did with dao=path/method/way and Dao=Great Dao)

 

Thanks!

[Aaron]

Hello Marblehead and Manitou,

 

First, it's not of our own determination. If we're practicing high Virtue, it can only spring forth from Tao, low virtue is what springs forth from our own determination.

 

High virtue happens as a direct result of practicing Tao, it is spontaneous and occurs as a result of wu wei. The virtue that is determined by us is low virtue, it is the virtue that springs forth from ulterior motives. High Virtue is determined, not by us, but by what's beneficial for everything.

 

The three things held in the highest esteem by Lao Tzu are Wisdom, Virtue, and Tao. In order to practice High Virtue, you must first have Wisdom, which, stems from experiencing the Tao. Even then, low virtue is better than nothing, it's just flawed, as most things are.

 

Aaron

Edited December 6, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Hi Aaron,

 

I must disagree with this because it is not what I experienced in my life.

 

I believe that there is an innate ability for anyone to live a life of high virtue without any knowledge of Tao or Taoist teachings.

 

It is just that most people are acculturated (is that a word?) into low virtue (man defined) and they never have the opportunity to seek any higher values because their low virtue values are generally accepted by, and in fact, supported by, their culture and society in general.

 

Did you know that I am an optimist?

[Aaron]

Hi Aaron,

 

I must disagree with this because it is not what I experienced in my life.

 

I believe that there is an innate ability for anyone to live a life of high virtue without any knowledge of Tao or Taoist teachings.

 

It is just that most people are acculturated (is that a word?) into low virtue (man defined) and they never have the opportunity to seek any higher values because their low virtue values are generally accepted by, and in fact, supported by, their culture and society in general.

 

Did you know that I am an optimist?

 

Hello Marblehead,

 

I'm certain that High De, has nothing to do with virtue, morality, or ethics, but rather has to do with an attitude that occurs when one is exposed to Tao. So for me, the more I think of it, Virtue isn't necessarily a good descriptor for it.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

Hello Marblehead,

 

I'm certain that High De, has nothing to do with virtue, morality, or ethics, but rather has to do with an attitude that occurs when one is exposed to Tao. So for me, the more I think of it, Virtue isn't necessarily a good descriptor for it.

 

Aaron

 

Oh, come on. Hehehe. We need discuss this word more. I enjoyed Dawei's post in the other thread. (This is your thread so maybe, if you feel it appropriate, copy his post over to this thread.) And yes, I do understand that there is confusion caused because of the usage of the word by the Confucians.

 

Of course, my understanding is prejudiced by the words of Chuang Tzu so whenever I speak to the word (concept) this will be reflected in what I say.

 

Yes, I agree that the "High De" that you speak of has absolutely nothing to do with virtue, morality or ethics. And this is why I have come to use the different cases of the letter "V" to indicate that the cap "V" is the virtue of Tao and the lower case "v" refers to the viture of man. (I can define only two levels, High and low.)

 

Yes, I suppose that attitude could be used to define this awareness of 'High De'. But I still suggest that this awareness can intuitively be had by anyone, regardless of philosophical or religious beliefs.

[Aaron]

Oh, come on. Hehehe. We need discuss this word more. I enjoyed Dawei's post in the other thread. (This is your thread so maybe, if you feel it appropriate, copy his post over to this thread.) And yes, I do understand that there is confusion caused because of the usage of the word by the Confucians.

 

Of course, my understanding is prejudiced by the words of Chuang Tzu so whenever I speak to the word (concept) this will be reflected in what I say.

 

Yes, I agree that the "High De" that you speak of has absolutely nothing to do with virtue, morality or ethics. And this is why I have come to use the different cases of the letter "V" to indicate that the cap "V" is the virtue of Tao and the lower case "v" refers to the viture of man. (I can define only two levels, High and low.)

 

Yes, I suppose that attitude could be used to define this awareness of 'High De'. But I still suggest that this awareness can intuitively be had by anyone, regardless of philosophical or religious beliefs.

 

Hello Marblehead,

 

I'm certain that it can be had by anyone. After all it comes from an experiential awareness of Tao, so it's not necessarily exclusive to "Taoists".

 

I'm also of the mind that what most people think of and define as "tao" (the small tao) is actually Te.

 

Aaron

Edited December 6, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

I'm also of the mind that what most people think of and define as "tao" (the small tao) is actually Te.

 

Aaron

 

Absolutely!! I agree with that 110%. (Yeah, I know, but I had to say that. Hehehe.)

[rene]

I'm certain that High De, has nothing to do with virtue, morality, or ethics, <snip>

 

So for me, the more I think of it, Virtue isn't necessarily a good descriptor for it.

 

Couldn't agree more.

 

Using "High virtue and low virtue" is almost as encumbered as "Captial V Virtue and Lower Case virtue".

 

Hey, here's an idea -

 

Why dont' we just use the word "De" when we're talking about De?

 

Leave it "untranslated". That way, we can use the word 'Virtue' to refer to the social/moral concept. Whenever you see the word 'virtue' in a translation, just switch it to 'de' in your head.

[strawdog65]

Hi Aaron,

 

I must disagree with this because it is not what I experienced in my life.

 

I believe that there is an innate ability for anyone to live a life of high virtue without any knowledge of Tao or Taoist teachings.

 

It is just that most people are acculturated (is that a word?) into low virtue (man defined) and they never have the opportunity to seek any higher values because their low virtue values are generally accepted by, and in fact, supported by, their culture and society in general.

 

Did you know that I am an optimist?

 

 

Hi Marblehead and Twinner!

 

I have to strongly agree with Marbles on this as far as life experience.

 

The environment we are immersed within can and does dictate the actions of

many weaker minded, and non-truth seeking individuals in our society.

 

Just turn on a TV and there's your low virtue tool for the masses.

 

In western society, there are few occasions to get that glimpse of High Virtue.

Living a life of ease compared to the lives of the ancients, is probably the

greatest contributor to so many people existing in low virtue.

 

Our dis-connect from all that is of a natural source is so complete,

that to many, using Nature and the universe as our model, is beyond

understanding. But this does not bely what I believe is the innate ability

within us to come to the realization that there is more to life then

eating chicken wings for dinner and oogling a bunch of Hooters girls.

 

We are what our influences are... we are the actions/non-actions we create.

Change of awareness needs to be kindled like a newly started fire,

that way as we throw on the heavier and more substantial logs... the flame

continues to burn deeper and stronger. We are the keepers of that flame

that is the Tao.

 

We are the influence of change in the making... everyday.

 

 

Peace!

[rene]

Are you a big fan of Wayne Dyer, strawdog?

[dawei]

Why dont' we just use the word "De" when we're talking about De?

Now, who gets to do the double post to the other forum; you've had your turn

 

Leave it "untranslated". That way, we can use the word 'Virtue' to refer to the social/moral concept. Whenever you see the word 'virtue' in a translation, just switch it to 'de' in your head.

That probably works on 98% of the time but other words can be translated to virtue... but i get your point. Edited December 6, 2010 by dawei

[strawdog65]

Are you a big fan of Wayne Dyer, strawdog?

 

 

Hi rene!

 

Only "change your thoughts, change your life", because it is

a discussion of the Tao Te Ching .... albeit with a lot of his

personal views on what is meant. Still a likable, positive

book for me,. Changed my thoughts....

 

The rest of his stuff is a little too religiously implicit.

Writing for the masses he does a decent job of presenting

the TTC in a manner that hopefully will create a better

understanding of what Taoism is, at least by his translation.

 

I came to this site to fill in gaps in my understanding, and

to try and get a more impartial view of who and what Taoist's

believe Taoism is.... I'm learning everyday!

 

Besides... where else can I enjoy your pointed Haiku's?

 

Peace!

[rene]

Now, who gets to do the double post to the other forum; you've had your turn

 

If Twinner would have left this thread in the subforum where it belongs, we wouldn't have to do any double posting. But that's okay; we get more exercise this way, running back and forth.

 

 

 

 

:grabs copy, heads back north, hits paste:

[Aaron]

If no one has objections, i can copy the posts over. I only moved the thread to the general area, because I was testing out the move feature and didn't know I couldn't move it back.

 

Aaron

[rene]

If no one has objections, i can copy the posts over. I only moved the thread to the general area, because I was testing out the move feature and didn't know I couldn't move it back.

 

Aaron

 

You cant move it back? Well, that blows. I've no objections to anything you want to do, Aaron. If you make a new thread in the subforum to copy all the posts into, it will probably have to have a different title as the ghost of this thread still resides there. If you do do this, I'd suggest locking this thread, with an invitation to everyone to come north & post.

[Marblehead]

If no one has objections, i can copy the posts over. I only moved the thread to the general area, because I was testing out the move feature and didn't know I couldn't move it back.

 

Aaron

 

Whatever you decide is fine with me. I know how to follow (if you are going the right way, Hehehe).

 

 

Yes Rene, I agree that the word 'virtue' should be understood to be talking to the human traits of social/moral concepts and the Way of Tao, as you express it, the De of Dao. This would reduce the amount of confusion regarding the word.