[TTC Study] Chapter 6 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Aaron]

[Marblehead]

The only thing I will say at the moment is that I do not like the usage of the words 'woman', and 'female' in this chapter so John Wu's translation is more appealing to me. There really is a great difference in Taoist philosophy between the word 'feminine' (Yin) and the sexually oriented words. (Besides, I know a few men of high quality who are predominantly feminine.)

[rene]

I like the feminine reference and the shadow of sexuality in the Feng rendition.

 

It seems to underscore the powerful aspect of the place of union, the place of origin, the hidden portal through which the manifest rises.

[majc]

I like the feminine reference and the shadow of sexuality in the Feng rendition.

 

It seems to underscore the powerful aspect of the place of union, the place of origin, the hidden portal through which the manifest rises.

ha, yeah - for that middle bit you're talking about, at one point mine read:

 

The female entrance

is the middleground.

 

It's easy to relate this to reality, but I'm not convinced that it's a fair representation of what was originally intended to have been said.

[Marblehead]

I like the feminine reference and the shadow of sexuality in the Feng rendition.

 

It seems to underscore the powerful aspect of the place of union, the place of origin, the hidden portal through which the manifest rises.

 

Hehehe. Yes, I am aware of that connotation. I just feel it is a distraction. (Okay, so I am an old man. Big deal!)

[manitou]

I'm thinking this is also alluding to the Yin aspect of nature. The emptiness. Adapting this to our daily lives, I would say this is the dynamic (or non-dynamic) of wu-wei, the "do-nothingness" of using the Tao for the highest purpose. This is the quiescent, the receptive. This is the thing that dwells within and waits for the 10,000 things to rise and fall of their own accord, the perch from which we can observe everything with detachment. How to behave when you're nervous? Breathe, relax, do nothing and see what plays out. When you're angry? Do nothing and see what happens. When walking into a room full of strangers? Do nothing and let it come to you. It works every single time. Then, when addressed, we are genuine human beings not vibrating at an unnatural level; we are our genuine selves. Huge things are accomplished by the refined practice of do-nothing, but most people can't see them happening.

[rene]

I'm thinking this is also alluding to the Yin aspect of nature. The emptiness. Adapting this to our daily lives, I would say this is the dynamic (or non-dynamic) of wu-wei, the "do-nothingness" of using the Tao for the highest purpose. This is the quiescent, the receptive. This is the thing that dwells within and waits for the 10,000 things to rise and fall of their own accord, the perch from which we can observe everything with detachment. How to behave when you're nervous? Breathe, relax, do nothing and see what plays out. When you're angry? Do nothing and see what happens. When walking into a room full of strangers? Do nothing and let it come to you. It works every single time. Then, when addressed, we are genuine human beings not vibrating at an unnatural level; we are our genuine selves. Huge things are accomplished by the refined practice of do-nothing, but most people can't see them happening.

 

Manitou, I like your thoughts on this (and your new avatar, very much!). Even though I dont hold to the yin/yang concepts laid onto the TTC, and undoubtedly majc is right in that the various renditions are not (on the surface) what may have been intended, I think what Ch 6 is pointing at is one of those "words aint gonna capture it" aspects.

 

But it's easy to see beneath what is typed, imo, and discover if it reflects the part I bolded in your post above, which from my perspective pretty well nails it. (-:

 

warm regards

[Aaron]

I think this is another chapter that's pretty straight forward. First the spirit never dies. Second the spirit is given feminine properties, I think this spirit may also be the "Mother" that is spoken of in the first chapter. One of the aspects of the unfathomable Tao.

 

In a purely philisophical examination, I would have to wonder about the use of the word spirit, but also I would be unable to deny that the author of the Tao Teh Ching had a thorough belief in spirits, and that he was referring to a literal spirit in this chapter.

 

With that said, this is one of those chapters that lends to the idea that Taoism was meant to be a spiritual practice and not purely philisophical. Also the idea that it is hard to grasp/see/understand, follows along with the description in Chapter One. Finally the theme of inexhaustible is repeated here, reminding us that it is eternally fertile.

 

Just my thoughts off the top of my head.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

In a purely philisophical examination, I would have to wonder about the use of the word spirit, but also I would be unable to deny that the author of the Tao Teh Ching had a thorough belief in spirits, and that he was referring to a literal spirit in this chapter.

 

Aaron

 

Hi Aaron,

 

I had a problem with that early in my reading of the TTC. I solved that problem by associating 'spirit' with 'universal Chi' and the word 'soul' with our 'personal Chi'.

 

Granted that the TTC can be said to contain concepts of metaphysical aspects but for me they are not defined well enough to try to include these concepts in my belief system.

[majc]

Ok, as a disclaimer: this is the chapter which I am least happy with my understanding of. Obviously I know what I mean by it, but I haven't found a translator who has produced anything close, or who's version makes sense in an easy-to-relate-to-reality way - which is what I consider important. So I've gone almost completely my own way with it... (Any sort of feedback therefore very much appreciated!)

 

Following on kind of neatly from Chapter 5's bit on space and the futility of words...

 

That which is receiving doesn't end.

This is the feminine element.

 

The feminine element

is key in all things.

 

On and on, opening up,

without strain.

 

How could you wrap your head around (in other words be able to put words on) the endless "feminine element", receiving aspect, [space]? It just goes on and on, effortlessly opening up, however far you try to pursue it.

Edited December 10, 2010 by majc

[Marblehead]

Ok, as a disclaimer: ...

 

Okay. You got me inspired to post. Hehehe. No disclaimer here though - everything that follows is my opinion and understanding (and a personal preference now and then).

 

I actually like the phrase "the Valley Spirit". I acknowledge the metaphysical tone but don't have a problem with that. I associate the Valley Spirit with Yin, with the Feminine, with the place of resting. I think we all should have our place of the Valley Spirit, a place we can go, either physically or just mentally, to accuire the rest that we so often need.

 

Henricks' line 2 reads: We call it the mysterious female.

 

I read this and think: We call it Yin.

 

Then line 3 would read: The gates to the mystereous feminine.

 

(Remember that we are told to know Yang (the masculine) but hold to Yin (the feminine).

 

And the last line is therefore obvious because we can never use up resting.

 

 

 

And then, to the concept of empty space. You know, there really isn't any 'empty space'. In my mind, empty space is the Mystery. And the Mystery is full of potential.

 

From a scientific point of view, the physical, observable universe is only 4.6% of the composition of the universe while dark matter consists of 23%. The remainder is Dark Energy. (Wikipedia)

 

So 'empty space' is 5 times more massive than is ordinary matter. How empty is that?!? I use the term "Mystery" when I speak to the concept of 'empty space' because even though it exists it is not yet observable. Of course, ordinary matter is what I refer to with the term 'the Manifest'. Dark matter will be observable when parts of it transmutate into ordinary matter but then ordinary matter transmutates into dark matter and this is what I see as one of the cycles in the processes of nature.

 

 

Anyhow, back to the Feminine. I prefer this word over Female because it is not distracting as is the sexual connotations of the word Female.

[dawei]

The phrase Valley Spirit (Gu Shen 谷神) has had many translation variations to include:

- Tao

- The Valley as desire (欲); Note that Gu (Valley) is the left part of this character.

- The Valley as grain; Another meaning for Gu.

- The non-valley as Nothingness

- Emptiness

- Pure intelligence

- The Great Harmony

 

Like Rene, I like the feminine translation left in.

 

Here would be my way of translation:

 

The Valley Spirit has no end-point

This is called the deep-rooted feminine

The deep-rooted feminine

Is regarded as the starting-point of the Universe

It intangibly subsists

By functioning effortlessly

Edited December 8, 2010 by dawei

[dawei]

Ok, as a disclaimer: this is the chapter which I am least happy with my understanding of. Obviously I know what I mean by it, but I haven't found a translator who has produced anything close, or who's version makes sense in an easy-to-relate-to-reality way - which is what I consider important. So I've gone almost completely my own way with it... (Any sort of feedback therefore very much appreciated!)

 

Following on kind of neatly from Chapter 5's bit on space and the futility of words...

 

The receiving aspect comes to no end.

Call this the feminine element.

 

The feminine element

is key in all things.

 

On and on, opening up,

without strain.

 

How could you wrap your head around (in other words be able to put words on) the endless "feminine element", receiving aspect, [space]? It just goes on and on, effortlessly opening up, however far you try to pursue it.

Hey Majc,

 

As short and brief as this is, I cannot find any translation satisfactory for the richness of the images here. I decided to take the day to ponder a translation and I see we have some similar thoughts. I think the one small thing I tried to convey the universe start-point which has no end-point.

 

You said "key", for the gate term or the combination of the gate and root?

 

It's a thoughtful translation. thanks.

Edited December 9, 2010 by dawei

[dawei]

And then, to the concept of empty space. You know, there really isn't any 'empty space'. In my mind, empty space is the Mystery. And the Mystery is full of potential.

I can see your point of using the Yin [aspect], so want to think about that.

 

Yes, empty but not empty is a typical Lao Zi paradox. That's why his imagery is understandable (Valley, bellows, space, etc).

 

Although I honestly don't think it is a mystery; there are enough examples in life that let us truly understand it. But yes, the empty is full (or never exhausted); classic Lao Zi !

[dawei]

I forget to mention that this chapter 6 is mentioned in total in the Lie Zi, who says this is originally from a Huang Di text. What makes that somewhat interesting is that there is an alternate sexual interpretation of this chapter which ironically has support of the earliest commentators AND Huang Di related text! Where is the emoticon for "I'm out of here"

[majc]

You said "key", for the gate term or the combination of the gate and root?

Exactly! - I'm aiming for an English re-rendering which covers an overall combination of the two. It's awesome that you recognized that.

[Marblehead]

Although I honestly don't think it is a mystery; there are enough examples in life that let us truly understand it. But yes, the empty is full (or never exhausted); classic Lao Zi !

 

Yes, I regularly get that response. But, as a noun, I still like the symbolism because of the paradox. As an adjective, it remains a mystery until it is realized (just like many things in life).

[rene]

The phrase Valley Spirit (Gu Shen 谷神) has had many translation variations to include:

- Tao

- The Valley as desire (欲); Note that Gu (Valley) is the left part of this character.

- The Valley as grain; Another meaning for Gu.

- The non-valley as Nothingness

- Emptiness

- Pure intelligence

- The Great Harmony

 

I can see how all of those easily fit as a descriptor for this!

 

 

Here would be my way of translation:

 

The Valley Spirit has no end-point

This is called the deep-rooted feminine

The deep-rooted feminine

Is regarded as the starting-point of the Universe

It intangibly subsists

By functioning effortlessly

 

Dawei - this is now my favorite translation for this Chapter and I printed it off and stuck it appropriately into my tattered Feng/English TTC.

 

Since I was a little girl, I fall asleep by letting my mind sink into the center-point. I used to play with math concepts as a child and the one of perpetual reduction (half of a half of a half, ad infinitum) always facinated me and the first time I was thinking about that at night in bed instead of going to sleep (like I was supposed to be doing!) it moved from my mind to my lower abdomen and I followed it down and in. Wheeeee! And yes, one can pop through to the other side.

 

And that's the reason your translation works for me; your description of Valley Spirit mirrors my experience that finds yes, there is no end-point... yes this is the starting-point of the Universe... and yes, it is effortless.

 

Since then, my perspective is that this mechanism called the Valley Spirit is not limited to the center-point (dantien?) but is fully present everywhere: the Universe also arises on the tip of your fingernail!

 

The Valley Spirit has no end-point

This is called the deep-rooted feminine

The deep-rooted feminine

Is regarded as the starting-point of the Universe

It intangibly subsists

By functioning effortlessly

 

warm regards

 

 

edit:typos

Edited December 9, 2010 by rene

[dawei]

Dawei - this is now my favorite translation for this Chapter and I printed it off and stuck it appropriately into my tattered Feng/English TTC.

 

Since I was a little girl, I fall asleep by letting my mind sink into the center-point. I used to play with math concepts as a child and the one of perpetual reduction (half of a half of a half, ad infinitum) always facinated me and the first time I was thinking about that at night in bed instead of going to sleep (like I was supposed to be doing!) it moved from my mind to my lower abdomen and I followed it down and in. Wheeeee! And yes, one can pop through to the other side.

 

And that's the reason your translation works for me; your description of Valley Spirit mirrors my experience that finds yes, there is no end-point... yes this is the starting-point of the Universe... and yes, it is effortless.

 

Since then, my perspective is that this mechanism called the Valley Spirit is not limited to the center-point (dantien?) but is fully present everywhere: the Universe also arises on the tip of your fingernail!

thanks for sharing that. nice to hear.

 

"Center-point"... I didn't think about that phrase which maybe I'll use in another chapter

 

Although I think these kinds of hyphenations work, it doesn't read as smooth as I would like but it says what I felt at that time. Thanks!

[dawei]

Yes, I regularly get that response. But, as a noun, I still like the symbolism because of the paradox. As an adjective, it remains a mystery until it is realized (just like many things in life).

I know what you mean!

[majc]

The word 'aspect' was horrible. Don't know why I left it in there... couldn't think of a good way to express it. This feels much less unfinished:

 

That which is receiving doesn't end.

This is the feminine element.

 

The feminine element

is key in all things

 

On and on, opening up,

without strain.

Edited December 10, 2010 by majc

[Taomeow]

This chapter is best understood via a study of sacred geometry. The subject of inquiry I propose is the eternal feminine, aka the Vesica piscis.

 

A very inspiring reminder, this chapter. Even though Christians use the vesica piscis as the symbol for Jesus and eternal life coming from this particular source, the idea of this shape representing a male source of life (or a "fountain," as one of the unfortunate translators envisions it -- he should stop jerking off, methinks) is without merit -- a vesica piscis is a vagina, quite explicitly. In sacred geometry, it is the primordial shape that gives rise to all other forms en route to manifestation. All platonic solids (the foundation of material manifestations) and importantly no other primal 3D shapes are derived from the shape of the "flower of life" formed by the natural arrangement of vesica piscis within a circle (the empty circle being the symbol for "the unmanifest," the vesica piscis, the route of manifestation). All of the yummiest taoist goodies ditto -- the bagua, the 64 hexagrams, everything. All of Kabbala, ditto -- the Tree of Life is the superimposition of the straight (male) lines onto the curved (female) pattern of the Flower of Life. All of Vedic sacred geometry, obviously, ditto. All of Moslem art. All of paleolithic art!! And all of the best of modern physics whose connection to sacred geometry has finally been uprooted by my favorite Switzerland's top gun in the physics of vacuum (a black holes dude -- you see a black hole if you look straight into the barrel of a top gun), Nassim Haramein.

 

...sorry for deviating from the delights of the dictionary that are this forum's undeniable forte. It's not mine, so I have to make do with the tao that can be drawn, painted, circumscribed with a compass rather than described with a dictionary... that kind of stuff.

[Marblehead]

This chapter is best understood via ...

 

 

Interesting view. Of course, I'm not into that stuff so ...

[Procurator]

[Elliot]

These posts really cleared my mind a bit, I was unsure what to make of this verse for a while, but it is know understood!

Thanks you all!

Edited December 11, 2011 by Elliot