[TTC Study] Chapter 6 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

I agree with the above bolded comment.

 

It is not really trying to force the spirit on just one thing; it is the spirit which moves along as water moves along the valley.

 

True. We are not talking about a 'thing'. We, and I think Lao Tzu as well, was talking about a concept.

[ChiDragon]

No, no. The hammer must always remain servicable and ready to use.

 

Yes, as long as the hammer was not used to force thing to fit......

[Marblehead]

Yes, as long as the hammer was not used to force thing to fit......

 

Hehehe. I've not attained that level of mastery yet.

[dawei]

It is not really trying to force the spirit on just one thing; it is the spirit which moves along as water moves along the valley.

 

There is some fetish on requiring word by word translations at the expense of understanding what is meant (or pictured). The more I have thought about Chapter 6 the more the 'Valley' (or possibly 'Valley Streams' using the MWD character) is nothing but a setting for the mind to picture; it is nothing but the background picture for the every present 'Spirit'. In which case, leaving out the 'Valley' in a translation is not an issue, which I have seen a few translators do.

 

Here is a translation mentioned in another thread:

谷神不死,是谓玄牝。玄牝之门，是谓天地根。绵绵若存，用之不勤。

A spirit can not die, this is called "XuanPin". The door of XuanPin, is called "root of the world". It seems exist there, being used without mind.

 

I have to mention that LaoZi didn't tell us the Dao clearly in TTC.

So TTC is a book which is very difficult to grasp the meaning of it.

So I suggest to spend more time on other books in the beginning, coming back onto TTC later.

I would like to ask Lao Zi to comment more on his translation. I agree with not translating "XuanPin" and leaving it as-is. But maybe we could talk more about The relationship of the Spirit, XuanPin and the root.

[Lao Tzu]

 

I would like to ask Lao Zi to comment more on his translation. I agree with not translating "XuanPin" and leaving it as-is. But maybe we could talk more about The relationship of the Spirit, XuanPin and the root.

What do you want to know?

[dawei]

I am not asking for a job interview; just a discussion. Can't you think of anything to say to support the translation you made?

 

If it is really necessary to ask questions to get you to think what to write, I'll indulge you:

1. Why not translate "Valley" (why leave it out in a translation)?

2. What is XuanPin? (code for what?)

3. What is "root of the world" ? (is 'world' code for something else?)

4. How does the Spirit relate to XuanPin and the root of the world?

5. Do you see Neidan principles and ideas to the passage?

[Lao Tzu]

I am not asking for a job interview; just a discussion. Can't you think of anything to say to support the translation you made?

 

If it is really necessary to ask questions to get you to think what to write, I'll indulge you:

1. Why not translate "Valley" (why leave it out in a translation)?

2. What is XuanPin? (code for what?)

3. What is "root of the world" ? (is 'world' code for something else?)

4. How does the Spirit relate to XuanPin and the root of the world?

5. Do you see Neidan principles and ideas to the passage?

I just did not know where to start with the discussion. So I asked you, If it makes you uncomfortable, I apologize to you for it.

1. Because it doesn't mean "Valley", thus translation can only make readers confused, I think.

2.XuanPin: According to the reference, Xuan means sky, Pin means earth. I didn't think it is necessary to translate like that. I wanted make it simple.

3."root of the world" means the world is based on it, coming from it. It is like a root.

4.Spirit, XuanPin, and "the root of the world" are different words for describing the "Dao"

5.Yes, it is describing the property of the Dao. And you may know more about the Dao from the passage.

[Marblehead]

Henricks' footnote to Chapter 6:

 

Chou Tz'u-chi's arguement that yu (normally "bathe") here for ku ("valley") [yu is always used for ku in the Ma-wang-tui texts] means the desire aroused by seeing female genitalia seems forced. Yu can hardly mean anything other than "valley" or "valley stream" in a number of contexts below (e.g., see chapters 32 and 39).

[dawei]

Henricks' footnote to Chapter 6:

 

Chou Tz'u-chi's arguement that yu (normally "bathe") here for ku ("valley") [yu is always used for ku in the Ma-wang-tui texts] means the desire aroused by seeing female genitalia seems forced. Yu can hardly mean anything other than "valley" or "valley stream" in a number of contexts below (e.g., see chapters 32 and 39).

Although 'Pin' means female animal (and often used as mother) to support a feminine picture... but I'll not try to support the argument.

[Lao Tzu]

Although 'Pin' means female animal (and often used as mother) to support a feminine picture... but I'll not try to support the argument.

Yes, some translation can only make you more confused.

[dawei]

I just did not know where to start with the discussion. So I asked you, If it makes you uncomfortable, I apologize to you for it.

1. Because it doesn't mean "Valley", thus translation can only make readers confused, I think.

2.XuanPin: According to the reference, Xuan means sky, Pin means earth. I didn't think it is necessary to translate like that. I wanted make it simple.

3."root of the world" means the world is based on it, coming from it. It is like a root.

4.Spirit, XuanPin, and "the root of the world" are different words for describing the "Dao"

5.Yes, it is describing the property of the Dao. And you may know more about the Dao from the passage.

1. Your not explaining how you handle 'Gu'... are you treating GuShen as a compound meaning for Spirit or just leaving it aside as not necessary to translate?

2. I like how Dr. Yang, Ywing-Ming handles this: Yuan is original and Pin is female/mother , so the origin of life; another concept for Dao. He also says that XuanPin is Taiji in the YiJing (Book of Change).

3. Root of the world: I see them all related too. Same as root of XuanPin ; root of the Spirit; thus, root of Dao. To unite with XuanPin is to unite with the Spirit is to unite with Dao.

[ChiDragon]

Henricks' footnote to Chapter 6:

 

Chou Tz'u-chi's arguement that yu (normally "bathe") here for ku ("valley") [yu is always used for ku in the Ma-wang-tui texts] means the desire aroused by seeing female genitalia seems forced. Yu can hardly mean anything other than "valley" or "valley stream" in a number of contexts below (e.g., see chapters 32 and 39).

Well, I see you did some homework with no doubt in my mind that you understood the text.......

[flowing hands]

I think you've all gone off on the wrong foot!!!!

 

The whole verse is about recognizing the primordial energy that exists and is the basis of the Tao and is ever present in all things.

 

Don't get too hung up on words written by other translators. Li Erh existed at a time where deep shamanistic society was dominant. His words are about recognizing the inter relationship between living and non living things, the energy that exist and gives life to all things and the way those things are able to live with their surrounding environment. Mankind's path in this he describes also. The word "valley" does not exist in this verse or stanza, as it does not make any sense at all. This is what Li Erh told me when I was taught his true words, for I looked at other translations at the time and begged him to tell me about them. Believe this or not.

[Lao Tzu]

1. Your not explaining how you handle 'Gu'... are you treating GuShen as a compound meaning for Spirit or just leaving it aside as not necessary to translate?

2. I like how Dr. Yang, Ywing-Ming handles this: Yuan is original and Pin is female/mother , so the origin of life; another concept for Dao. He also says that XuanPin is Taiji in the YiJing (Book of Change).

3. Root of the world: I see them all related too. Same as root of XuanPin ; root of the Spirit; thus, root of Dao. To unite with XuanPin is to unite with the Spirit is to unite with Dao.

1. "Gu", I think it describes the porperty of the spirit(Dao). Its meaning is more like "expansive and empty", yes, the character "Gu" in Chinese means "valley", but I think that only translating it into "valley" can make readers confused.

[Marblehead]

Although 'Pin' means female animal (and often used as mother) to support a feminine picture... but I'll not try to support the argument.

 

Hehehe. Yes, we shouldn't take that arguement any further than I already have.

[Marblehead]

Well, I see you did some homework with no doubt in my mind that you understood the text.......

 

Yes, that is why I remain with the "valley spirit" translation.

[Marblehead]

I think you've all gone off on the wrong foot!!!!

 

Yeah, I have been known to start off on the wrong foot.

 

But I still like "valley spirit" because for me it relates to Yin which in my understanding a place of rest. So I rest with the valley spirit. And yes, in my mind the feminine is the root of all things. Tao gave birth to One, ... only the female gives birth.

[dawei]

I think you've all gone off on the wrong foot!!!!

 

The whole verse is about recognizing the primordial energy that exists and is the basis of the Tao and is ever present in all things.

 

Don't get too hung up on words written by other translators. Li Erh existed at a time where deep shamanistic society was dominant.

Thanks for sharing that. I will admit I am getting more and more turned off by translators... Although that is how Jwing-Ming essentially interprets the chapter:

 

"The Shen resides at the space between the two hemispheres of the brain. This space acts as a valley between mountains, which is able to trap energy and generate resonant vibrations in the valley, that correspond with the energy outside the valley..."

 

There is more but one can look at his Embryonic Breathing book.

[flowing hands]

Yeah, I have been known to start off on the wrong foot.

 

But I still like "valley spirit" because for me it relates to Yin which in my understanding a place of rest. So I rest with the valley spirit. And yes, in my mind the feminine is the root of all things. Tao gave birth to One, ... only the female gives birth.

 

I think one has to begin to forget whatever you have read and learnt. In unlearning you can begin to understand, the mind left completely open, the heart also. What is 'male' or 'female' is lost to the whole. Some may say that shadow is yin and sunlight is yang, I would say they exist to be a whole and shouldn't be broken up. Once the whole is broken up, it is very difficult to find one's way back. Go up the mountain, leave the parts to be what they are and seek the whole, there you shall understand all things and not bother with small details that will distract you from understanding. All things are equal and made from the Tao; male,female are one and need to come together as equals as they were created.

[Marblehead]

... I would say they exist to be a whole and shouldn't be broken up.

 

I would agree with that as at its roots, in my understanding Yin and Yang are the polarities of Chi and they are therefore an undividable unity.

[ChiDragon]

I would agree with that as at its roots, in my understanding Yin and Yang are the polarities of Chi and they are therefore an undividable unity.

The undividable Unity is Tao but Tao itself can be either more Yin or Yang as his choice. He likes to be more Yin(feminine) in this chapter as the mysterious female.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I have experienced my Yin side many times. I used to think that I had a little gay blood in me. Hehehe.

[dawei]

The undividable Unity is Tao but Tao itself can be either more Yin or Yang as his choice. He likes to be more Yin(feminine) in this chapter as the mysterious female.

I think this confuses non-entity Dao with the manifest world; Dao is made to be 'something' in such a description. I personally don't see Dao as the undivided unity but the process part of it.

[ChiDragon]

I think this confuses non-entity Dao with the manifest world; Dao is made to be 'something' in such a description. I personally don't see Dao as the undivided unity but the process part of it.

 

If one don't put Tao in the process yet, then one might see Tao is undivided. Even though Tao is part of the process of it, it still is.

 

Please Look at Marblehead.....

Yeah, I have experienced my Yin side many times. I used to think that I had a little gay blood in me. Hehehe.

[dawei]

Please Look at Marblehead.....

Yeah, I have experienced my Yin side many times. I used to think that I had a little gay blood in me. Hehehe.

Are you changing your name to 'fruitcake' now? I don't need to go gay to experience Tao... YMMV. Have fun with your new found 'buddy'.