[TTC Study] Chapter 6 of the Tao Teh Ching

[sree]

Mr. Sree,

 

With my question, I was asking for your interpretation of the chapter. All you have shared is that you "don't see a spirit". You seem to have your own "happy meal" to share, or do you consider it a Confucian bomb?

 

I am interested in your perception.

 

 

 

 

I do not discuss the Tao Te Ching with non-Chinese. It is not because I am a racist bigot as Dawai perceives me. All foreign translations are not useable for meaningful discussion because they evoke concepts unconnected to Chinese philosophical thought. You may argue and say, 'what's the big deal, we are all humans". I don't think it is that simple.

[Jeff]

 

I do not discuss the Tao Te Ching with non-Chinese. It is not because I am a racist bigot as Dawai perceives me. All foreign translations are not useable for meaningful discussion because they evoke concepts unconnected to Chinese philosophical thought. You may argue and say, 'what's the big deal, we are all humans". I don't think it is that simple.

 

Then why discuss it in English at all?

 

[Marblehead]

Then why discuss it in English at all?

 

Excellent question! In fact, why discuss it at all? Why discuss anything? Why live? We could just find a corner in a vacant building and die.

[dawei]

I do not discuss the Tao Te Ching with non-Chinese. It is not because I am a racist bigot as Dawai perceives me. All foreign translations are not useable for meaningful discussion because they evoke concepts unconnected to Chinese philosophical thought. You may argue and say, 'what's the big deal, we are all humans". I don't think it is that simple.

It's more about isolationist thought and intolerance of foreigners (outside opinion)... China has a very long documented history of that. Sorry that I offended you. It is simply this trait which one still sees today in some fashion but if we agree to disagree and can discuss some items without offense then we show tolerance for other opinions.

 

But I would extend to you that you have a point in the midst of this issue but to claim no westerner or translation can capture it at all defeats the purpose of bothering to discuss it (as was said).

 

IMO, one may not really understand deeper meanings of Lao Zi by only reading the DDJ... it helps to know history and read other daoist classics as well. Knowing the areas that Dao influenced (TCM, energy work, feng shui, spirituality, etc) also helps. So while I hold this position, it does not stop me from discussing whatever levels can be discussed.

[ChiDragon]

Then why discuss it in English at all?

 

 

Excellent question! In fact, why discuss it at all? Why discuss anything? Why live? We could just find a corner in a vacant building and die.

 

Gentlemen....

Please believe me. I know the frustration. However, there are big differences in the conversations between "westerner and easterner" and "easterner and easterner". If you pay close attention to the conversation between sree and me, you will see a big difference because we do share some common ground.

[Marblehead]

I am paying close attention. Sometimes Northerner can't understand Southerners.

 

Knowledge and wisdom should be shared. If it is not shared it will seal the downfall of that old knowledge and wisdom. I wouldn't want that to happen with the knowledge and wisdom contained in the TTC.

[sree]

Then why discuss it in English at all?

 

 

The Chinese (like Lin Yutang and Gia Fu-Feng) here in this forum are western-educated intellectuals. We are comfortable bantering in English even though we can break into an all Chinese "ching chong ching chong" affair. Also, at the vernacular level, both English and Chinese are pretty even in terms of mental payload delivery capability.

Classical Chinese (

古文)

 

is something else. It doesn't lend itself to bantering the way westerners do in English. So, we just chuck in

 

谷神不死, which is the Tao Te Ching proper, and discuss it like you foreigners

別國人

in English.

Edited December 26, 2012 by sree

[sree]

Excellent question! In fact, why discuss it at all? Why discuss anything? Why live? We could just find a corner in a vacant building and die.

 

Lighten up, my friend. There is value in discussing the English version of the Tao Te Ching for you guys. It may not be the real McCoy you are grappling with but think of the sense of self-worth, happiness and inspiration you fellows get. Also, the mental exercise in taking metaphysical leaps is equivalent to mental taichi for staving off alzheimer's disease. The Chinese play mahjong to keep mentally fit. Therapy is not common in China.

[Marblehead]

Lighten up, my friend.

Hehehe. Okay, I will. But I did get your attention, didn't I?

[sree]

I am paying close attention. Sometimes Northerner can't understand Southerners.

 

Knowledge and wisdom should be shared.

 

Of course, when it is possible to do so.

 

If it is not shared it will seal the downfall of that old knowledge and wisdom. I wouldn't want that to happen with the knowledge and wisdom contained in the TTC.

 

You don't have to worry about the Tao Te Ching ever getting lost to the Chinese. These days, they are a pretty corrupt lot with their mad struggle for wealth everywhere, especially in China. But there are enough Chinamen around who still respect their traditions and light joss sticks for their ancestors every morning.

 

But there are other good stuff accessible to you, like George Bernard Shaw, Thoreau, Emerson, Jefferson. Preserve those. Even Jiang Zemin studied Abraham Lincoln and could recite his Gettysburg address by heart.

 

Why insist on climbing a tree when you have no legs? (Chinese proverb.)

Edited December 26, 2012 by sree

[Marblehead]

Why insist on climbing a tree when you have no legs? (Chinese proverb.)

If it is the tree one is supposed to be in there is no other choice than to climb it.

 

And yes, it is amazing how rapidly China is becoming Westernized.

 

So I'll make you a deal: You read Kant and I will read Lao Tzu.

Edited December 27, 2012 by Marblehead

[dawei]

First: Therapy is not common in china because it is almost taboo for anyone outside of the two people having an issue to tell them what to do... People do not interfere with other people's business; and people do not go outside of their family to get advice.

 

The principle of Dao is universal and not hovering over china... So an understanding is accessible by anyone... but non-chinese clearly pose some challenges to having that inner sense on some level.

 

Sree shares good insight into issues like chasing wealth while lighting joss sticks. But China is not westernizing that quickly. That may be western media or Taiwan or Hong Kong talk... Don't believe everything you read or hear from the media. This may be an example of where the west simply may not really understand what is in the east...

 

Shall we discuss the chapter?

[Marblehead]

Shall we discuss the chapter?

No! It's more fun bickering about something that doesn't matter.

[XieJia]

☷

 

坤

[dynamictao]

I would take the first verse as "The Ghost (Spirit) and God never die." in the same spirit as "Wu and Yu never die."

Any two opposites will always appear together to represent a reality, such as Tao.

I use Spirit, since Ghost may induce spurious meaning. But Ghost 鬼 is interchangeable with Valley 谷 because they have the similar sound at ancient time.

 

Spirit and God are two opposite manifestation modes of Tao as a whole. Spirit (or Ghost)「谷」and God 「神」may be treated as a pair of opposites. A common interpretation is “The spirit of the valley never die.” However, 谷 (Valley) and 鬼 (Spirit, Ghost) are interchangeable, and refer to the un-manifested whole of Tao. The manifested whole of Tao is God (神) and the un-manifested (implicit manifestation) is Spirit (Valley). This pair also appears in Chapter 39 and 60.

[Marblehead]

Y'all have to talk about that without me as I'm not into all those gods, spirits, or ghosts. For me the spirit of the valley is Yin. the state/condition of rest.

[flowing hands]

 

 

 

I do not discuss the Tao Te Ching with non-Chinese. It is not because I am a racist bigot as Dawai perceives me. All foreign translations are not useable for meaningful discussion because they evoke concepts unconnected to Chinese philosophical thought. You may argue and say, 'what's the big deal, we are all humans". I don't think it is that simple.

I am non Chinese but I know the DDJ better than you or in fact anyone else alive on this planet. You don't have the original. Li Erh's original thought can be easily transmitted to any other language and any other culture, if the expression and sentiments are right. Li Erh did not just write his thoughts down just for the Chinese, he wrote them down for all peoples and all living things. He chose me to teach, not a Chinese person, what does that tell you?

 

Be humble, act as if you know nothing, remember the passage in Chuang Tzu about the Master who showed his student how powerful his control and knowledge of the Dao was and when his student realised this, he knew that he knew nothing and returned to looking after the pigs and cooking for his wife.

[dynamictao]

Quote from one of my books:

[With the prevailing problems in interpretation....]

 

"Most Chinese thinkers start to protect Tao as a unique kind of Chinese thinking and claim that Tao is far superior and cannot be analyzed with Western ideas. A few even suggest that Western scholars should “think like a Chinese” in dealing with these issues that cannot be resolved by the Chinese thinkers.

 

Many Western philosophers will not accept Tao as a systematic philosophy. However, many others start to inherit Tao thinking without definite logic; most would expand on Tao with their own interpretations based on the historical Chinese commentaries. "

 

[so the West inherit the problems and end up with the same problems ... How can we break this endless loop?]

 

Albert Einstein says:

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."

[Marblehead]

Can we look at just the pictures and forget the words?

[flowing hands]

Quote from one of my books:

[With the prevailing problems in interpretation....]

 

"Most Chinese thinkers start to protect Tao as a unique kind of Chinese thinking and claim that Tao is far superior and cannot be analyzed with Western ideas. A few even suggest that Western scholars should “think like a Chinese” in dealing with these issues that cannot be resolved by the Chinese thinkers.

 

Many Western philosophers will not accept Tao as a systematic philosophy. However, many others start to inherit Tao thinking without definite logic; most would expand on Tao with their own interpretations based on the historical Chinese commentaries. "

 

[so the West inherit the problems and end up with the same problems ... How can we break this endless loop?]

 

Albert Einstein says:

"The significant problems we face cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them."

 

No it is not unique thinking, many cultures like the north American Indians have similar ideas and Russian bodies have been dug up I do believe with acupuncture marks tattooed on their bodies. So the ideas of Qi and its manifestations have been known to many ancient civilizations, but described in a different way. The central idea though is universal, but has been misinterpreted by mostly Christian influenced ideas that have nothing to do with Dao. Hence many people in the west interpret the DDJ in a very stolid/intellectual way, when it should not be. Most of us have been persuaded to think in a way by our teachers and however we try to see things differently, the subconscious mind kicks in its own version of reality, which is what we all do to remain sane. From my experience, we have to go through years of self cultivation, ridding the mind and body of desire etc. until it is truly open, when this happens we can then view the world from this perspective. Not many people can really do that. So we are stuck with each and every one of us looking at things from our own perspective according to the way we have been brought up etc. and the way we each view the world and create our own reality.

 

Of course Li Erh Xian Shi was a realised being and his writings show us that he was so.

Edited February 12, 2013 by flowing hands

[dynamictao]

No it is not unique thinking, many cultures like the north American Indians have similar ideas and Russian bodies have been dug up I do believe with acupuncture marks tattooed on their bodies. So the ideas of Qi and its manifestations have been known to many ancient civilizations, but described in a different way.

 

Totally agree with what you see.

If we do it right, we all see different, but equivalent, characteristics of the same reality.

[dawei]

I would take the first verse as "The Ghost (Spirit) and God never die." in the same spirit as "Wu and Yu never die."

Any two opposites will always appear together to represent a reality, such as Tao.

I use Spirit, since Ghost may induce spurious meaning. But Ghost 鬼 is interchangeable with Valley 谷 because they have the similar sound at ancient time.

 

Spirit and God are two opposite manifestation modes of Tao as a whole. Spirit (or Ghost)「谷」and God 「神」may be treated as a pair of opposites. A common interpretation is “The spirit of the valley never die.” However, 谷 (Valley) and 鬼 (Spirit, Ghost) are interchangeable, and refer to the un-manifested whole of Tao. The manifested whole of Tao is God (神) and the un-manifested (implicit manifestation) is Spirit (Valley). This pair also appears in Chapter 39 and 60.

 

I usually take the Valley as more like a picture's background; it is only showing the setting for inherent 'Spirit'; as a combined pictogram they give the feeling of the roaming spirit moving about a valley but the valley represents all existence (or anything which the spirit resides in). Thus, I have tended towards not needing to actually translate 'Valley'.

 

But in my way of thinking, Valley is the manifest of the two... so you give me something to think more about.

 

[dynamictao]

Dawei,

 

Yes. We can enjoy the vast spirit of valley.

For my work (searching for the logical structure of the TTC),

I try to see how "two opposites" participate in a "reality."

That reminds me of the interchangeability of the two Chinese words Ghost/Spirit and Valley.

The traditional interpretations do not have to worry about the overall consistency of

the pair of Ghost (Valley) and its opposite, God.

[dawei]

That reminds me of the interchangeability of the two Chinese words Ghost/Spirit and Valley.

 

Since you like Heng (恆) from the MWD text...

 

Do you have any comment on the MWD text which did not have Valley (谷) but had Yu (浴) ? Do you treat them as interchangeable?

[lienshan]

Keeping that in mind now passage 6 from LZ B from Mawangdui

 

浴神不死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃天地之根。縣縣呵其若存，用之不堇。

 

The spirit of the valley isn't a dead one.

It is called the female of the darkness.

There are the swinggates of the female of the darkness.

They are called the roots of heaven and earth.

The laughing sound of endless endless is like an existing one.

We use its immaterial one.

 

谷 and 浴 are as Chidragon says interchangeable both meaning the valley.

The first refer to the two material mountains which form the valley. These two are called the roots.

The latter refer to what's in between the two mountains.

In springtime a stream and in autumn a pit; like the trigram Water/Pit.

And ofcourse some empty space making the laughing sound of echoes possible.

 

I read the female of darkness as referring to the Yin-Yang theory ... what's the Yin of Yin?

Yin is originally defined as the dark side of a mountain that'll say one material side of the valley.

Edited June 1, 2013 by lienshan