[TTC Study] Chapter 6 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Ah, my spirit of the valley has reared her head again.

 

Yes, I have always viewed this as the Yin principle, the place of rest, the passive. Sure, even the dark side of the mountain is fitting.

 

I'm not sure about the laughing sound but if we were in the valley, playing along the mountain stream there would be laughing sounds.

[lienshan]

Ah, my spirit of the valley has reared her head again.

 

Yes, I have always viewed this as the Yin principle, the place of rest, the passive. Sure, even the dark side of the mountain is fitting.

the swinggates ( the roots / heaven and earth / two mountainsides) + the space in between

The space in between is considered as consisting of two elements: the darkness + the spirit

They are called the (male of) darkness and the female of darkness.

They are in the Mawangdui chapter 1 called the darkness and its additional darkness.

 

Is the darkness equal to Yang and is its additional darkness equal to Yin? Or is it the other way around?

 

The dark side of the material mountain is fitting the Yin principle ... no problem.

But is the nonmaterial part of the valley fitting the Yin principle ... that's the problem!

[Marblehead]

Is the darkness equal to Yang and is its additional darkness equal to Yin? Or is it the other way around?

I've never thought about that but, yes, I think it would be the other way around. The mysterious female.

 

The dark side of the material mountain is fitting the Yin principle ... no problem.

But is the nonmaterial part of the valley fitting the Yin principle ... that's the problem!

But wouldn't the darkside be mysterious? Actally nonmaterial until one experiences it?

[ChiDragon]

Is the darkness equal to Yang and is its additional darkness equal to Yin? Or is it the other way around?

 

You had spent so much time in studying the TTC; and you are still having trouble with Yin-yang.

If there is lightness then there is darkness. The lightness is Yang and the darkness is Yin.

 

Did you skip Chapter 2....???

Edited June 2, 2013 by ChiDragon

[lienshan]

I've never thought about that but, yes, I think it would be the other way around. The mysterious female.

 

The problem with this chapter is, that the translators break the lines against the ancient grammar rules:

 

浴神不死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃天地之根。

 

but doing so would in classical chinese demand a 也 character behind 玄牝之門 so the correct syntax is:

 

浴神不死，是胃玄牝玄牝之門，是胃天地之根。

 

The spirit of the valley isn't a dead one.

These are the swinggates of the mysterious female and the female of the darkness.

These are called the roots of the heaven and the earth.

I try to read two female types; a supernatural and a natural:

the spirit - the mysterious female - the heaven

the valley - the female of the darkness - the earth

[Marblehead]

Okay. I see where you are wanting to go with this.

 

Are you sure you can justify, from the Chinese characters, the mysterious female and the female of the darkness?

 

We might also be going too deep into this mysterious female thing.

 

Most translations read the first line as:

 

The spirit of the valley never dies

 

or

 

The valey spirit, not dying

 

or words to that effect.

 

Except for Tao, which is not a thing, there is nothing that is non-dying.

 

In your third line you suggest that the mysterious female AND the female of darkness are the roots of heaven and earth. However, we know that Tao is the root of heaven and earth.

 

Mitchell's translation is interesting:

 

The Tao is called the Great Mother:

empty yet inexhaustible,

it gives birth to infinite worlds.

 

It is fun for me to imagine "the spirit of the valley" as the "mysterious female" (yin) but I wonder if this is really a valid way of looking at the chapter rather simplistically as Mitchell has done.

[lienshan]

Are you sure you can justify, from the Chinese characters, the mysterious female and the female of the darkness?

 

These two lines have exactly the same structure:

 

是胃玄牝玄牝之門

是胃天地之根 These 是 are called 胃 the roots 根 of 之 the heaven 天 and the earth 地

 

The last line is easily read. The heaven and the earth are two roots (with a space in between).

To read the heaven and the earth as being one single root makes no sense in my opinion.

 

門 is a pictograph of the swinggates; a gate consisting of two parts.

玄 means both the mystery/mysterious and the darkness/dark. (the context decides which one).

牝 means the female.

 

That'll say if you read the first line in exactly the same way as you read the following easily read line,

then is the and between 玄牝 and 玄牝 what the author guides you to read in the difficult line.

[lienshan]

In your third line you suggest that the mysterious female AND the female of darkness are the roots of heaven and earth.

However, we know that Tao is the root of heaven and earth.

 

I read the five lines of the Mawangdui B version in this way:

 

line 1: Laozi expresses his own opinion in a statement: The spirit of the valley isn't a dead one.

line 2: Laozi quotes somebody else (These are called..)

line 3: Laozi quotes somebody else (These are called..)

line 4: Laozi comments the two quotes.

line 5: Laozi expresses his own opinion in a conclusion: I use the nonmaterial one.

 

The problem with reading Tao Te Ching as a cookbook is,

that whenever he quotes somebody else, to show what he is talking about,

then are these quotes being read and translated as if he expresses his own point of view.

[Marblehead]

Fair responses to both. I am unable to question further due to my inability to read the Chinese language.

 

However, "spirit of the valley", "the feminine" and "yin" will remain a part of my understanding of this chapter. The gates, or the roots, have been a matter of discussion for me before and will surely be so again. (My thoughts are not firmly established here yet.)

[lienshan]

I find the doubled character in line 4 of the Mawangdui B version interesting:

a part of something already divided

 

The pictograph shows a hanged man which refers to the spirit of a dead one:

 

The spirit is a single ten thousand thing who has spoken. (Shuo Gua §6)

 

The doubled character of the Received version is this more neutral character:

everlasting / endless / weak

 

The pictograph shows the cotton used to make a thread.

[Marblehead]

Could it have, there (in China) and back then, been understood that 1.) already divided is equal to the spirit had left the dead body, and, 2.) this spirit is everlasting?

 

I would align this with the shamanistic beliefs of the times.

[lienshan]

What's already divided is the valley (into what's material and what's nonmaterial).

 

The spirit is a further subdivision of what's nonmaterial.

[Marblehead]

Okay. You know I can't go there with you.

[lienshan]

What's already divided is the valley (into what's material and what's nonmaterial).

 

The spirit is an additional subdivision of what's material.

 

The spirit uses what's nonmaterial.

 

 

The spirit of the valley isn't a dead one.

These are called the swinggates of the mysterious female and the female of darkness.

These are called is called the roots of heaven and earth.

The echoing sound of the subdivision's subdivision is like an existing one.

It uses its nonmaterial one.

Edited June 4, 2013 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

Well, in order to have the velley we must have its compliment, the mountains. So yes, there is already a division but it is complimentary. Walking the mountains is a lot of work, resting in the valley is nice.

 

For me the spirit is like the Great Pumpkin, it offers nice things to our child-heart. But the Great Pumpkin really doesn't exist except in our mind.

 

But I can follow the flow from the mountain (effort) to the valley (rest) to the spirit (return it source). The divisions came out of Oneness and through spirit we return to Oneness.

[Hilarious Username!]

Marblehead makes a good point that one must distinguish between WOMAN, and feminine. What might be interpreted by some as a reference to Yin and Yang could be lost in failing to do so.

[dawei]

What's already divided is the valley (into what's material and what's nonmaterial).

 

The spirit is an additional subdivision of what's material.

 

 

Is there any hierarchy [or time reference] intended here?

 

Meaning: Is the spirit a subdivision of the material or is the material a subdivision of the spirit?

[ion]

Hello folks,

 

It's that time again. Here's Chapter 6. I look forward to hearing your comments.

 

 

Chapter 6

 

(Tr. By John C. H. Wu)

 

The Spirit of the Fountain dies not.

It is called the Mysterious Feminine.

The Doorway of the Mysterious Feminine

Is called the Root of Heaven-and-Earth.

 

Lingering like gossamer, it has only a hint of existence;

And yet when you draw upon it, it is inexhaustible.

 

 

(Tr. by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

 

The valley spirit never dies;

It is the woman, primal mother.

Her gateway is the root of heaven and Earth.

It is like a veil barely seen.

Use it; it will never fail.

 

(Tr. by Robert Henricks)

 

1. The valley spirit never dies;

2. We call it the mysterious female.

3. The gates of the mysterious female—

4. These we call the roots of Heaven and Earth.

5. Subtle yet everlasting! It seems to exist.

6. In being used, it is not exhausted.

 

 

------------

 

Aaron

The spirit of the valley/fountain never dies, because in its unactivated stillness is a field of latent potential. If the fountain stops gushing/ the valley stops over flowing and drys up, it is still all there as potential.

 

 

I read the tem "old yin" somewhere years ago and thought to myself that it was a reference to this state of latent potential, Im not sure if that is correct use of the term, because I read the term but dont know the definition.

 

My understanding is that the yin yang is actually yin-yang-yin which sort of translates to stillness-action-activity or potential-activation-expression.

 

I dont think this chapter is so much about the valley spirit in action, but is more about the stillness/latent potential of the mysterious female. When we look at an empty valley, its being is a reflection of the mysterious female, its becoming a lake and flowing out is an expession of the yins union with yang.

The Valley spirit in action is a reference to male and female union, not to the mysterious female. The mountains/watershed that create the valley, and the low valley itself is the mysterious female. The water (rain and in puring streams) that pour into the water by way of the water shed is male, the outward flowing streams from the lake the valley becomes is the female. But it happens all at once. So the perfect union of yin yang is this constant benificial life givving cycle.

 

So it goes mysterious female/potential(watershed)- male/action(incomming water)- female/activity(out flowing waters), take out the male, the activity returns to stillness/latent potential.

 

That the mysterious female is barely there at all is because it cant be said to exists. It only exists in spirit/principle. This is a direct example of its non-being creating its being, and its being creating its non-being.

 

The nature of the mysterious female(stillness-non-being-latent potential), is to be still;if something is put in it, it uses it up on route to returning to stillness-latent potential. As if it was the nature of a car to be in pristine condition, yet out of gas on the side of the road(mysterous female), so, if you put gas(yang) in it and turn it on its nature is to return to that state so it drives itself off full throttle(yin) to the fullest potential of the amount & quality of the fuel put in it's tank until the fuel(yang) is used up and the car is again on the side of the road in a state of stillness and in just as pristine condition(mysterous female).

 

With the original primordial yin yang, the yang is not limited, a reflection of its originator, the mysterous female, so yang is never used up and the yin can never be used up so it does not return to the said state of stillness, however all the activity there in, existence, life and everything are the result of mysterous female in a state of returning to that state of stillness.

 

In the world of form, the yin-yang of any form being or event would go Mysterous female(/stillness/potential), male(the action/active principle/cause), female(activity/effect), mysterious female (the playing out of the active principle/cause through effect, the using up of its energy and returning to the original state of stillness/ the not there, being there in potential).

 

Because the mysterious female is "barely existing" it appeares that all events start with the yang principle/ the cause, but it starts an ends with the original female.

 

This is why we should know the male but dwell in the female, we should be still and un assertive but receptive to action, spring into activity/let the action course through but add nothing to it, when its gone on its own we should return again to stillness.

Edited July 23, 2013 by ion

[wayne]

Well, in order to have the velley we must have its compliment, the mountains. So yes, there is already a division but it is complimentary. Walking the mountains is a lot of work, resting in the valley is nice.

 

For me the spirit is like the Great Pumpkin, it offers nice things to our child-heart. But the Great Pumpkin really doesn't exist except in our mind.

 

But I can follow the flow from the mountain (effort) to the valley (rest) to the spirit (return it source). The divisions came out of Oneness and through spirit we return to Oneness.

Interesting.

 

Based on the Complementarity of opposites,

I have taken the following interpretation for "谷神":

 

This verse is often interpreted as “The spirit of the valley never dies.” We have identified Spirit 谷 and God 神 as two opposite modes of Tao. 谷 (Valley) and 鬼 (Spirit) are used interchangeably. Spirit (鬼) and God (神) is a pair of opposites, as used in Chapter 39 and 60. Therefore, Valley is taken to be the opposite of God.

 

and "玄牝" as "The Profound Source/Resource 玄牝 remains as wholeness, without differentiation. It is the source for heaven and earth or the myriad things."

 

 

note: Profound (玄) - is associated with a state without distinctive separation of Wu and Yu. The state cannot be clearly and distinctively described.

 

 

My published translation is:

 

The Spirit and God never die.

They are the profound source for the myriad things

The door of the profound source is the root for heaven and earth.

Ceaseless and perceptible, it functions without exhaustion.

 

This is based on the "Oneness of Tao."

 

[Marblehead]

Hi Wayne,

 

I'm glad you found time to come talk with us a bit.

 

To the first line of your translation, myself, being an Atheist and a Materialist, would not be able to accept line 1 but I see how you got there.

 

----------

 

and "玄牝" as "The Profound Source/Resource 玄牝 remains as wholeness, without differentiation. It is the source for heaven and earth or the myriad things."

 

note: Profound (玄) - is associated with a state without distinctive separation of Wu and Yu. The state cannot be clearly and distinctively described.

 

Yes, I prefer the reading "It is the source for Heaven, Earth, and the Ten Thousand Things." I think it puts the process in proper perspective.

 

And I agree, "Profound" would be complimentary, not dualistic. That would be Wu and Yu complimenting each other.

 

Way back when, when I tried to reduce my dualistic thinking and felt the need to stop using the word (concept) balance so that I could veiw life as being more complimentary instead of 'this against that', I ended up with the word (concept) of 'harmony'. I think that 'harmony' allows for more non-dualistic thinking (awareness).

 

Then along the way Rene helped me with the suggestion of replacing the dualistic concept of "good/bad" with "useful/useless" (to me). That allows me to judge the usefulness of someting to me without judging its usefulness to others.

 

Therefore, without the mountains there would be no valley and without the valley there would be no mountains. Thus we have the harmony of Yin and Yang, of Wu and Yu, of Heaven and Earth, of Earth and the Ten Thousand Things, and on and on.

 

And then, yes, "The state cannot be clearly and distinctively described" because they are always in a dynamic state. (Hehehe. Do you like the way I found a way to use the word "Dynamic"?)

[ChiDragon]

Interesting.

 

Based on the Complementarity of opposites,

I have taken the following interpretation for "谷神":

 

This verse is often interpreted as “The spirit of the valley never dies.” We have identified Spirit 谷 and God 神 as two opposite modes of Tao. 谷 (Valley) and 鬼 (Spirit) are used interchangeably. Spirit (鬼) and God (神) is a pair of opposites, as used in Chapter 39 and 60. Therefore, Valley is taken to be the opposite of God.

 

Based on the Chinese linguistic structure, 谷神 means the "spirit of the valley". 谷(valley) is an adjective or modifier and 神(spirit) is the subject. 谷神 is one term with compound characters. They are not two entities. It should be interpreted as the "spirit of the Valley" rather than "the valley and the spirit".

Edited July 26, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Riyue]

Based on the Complementarity of opposites,

...

"Oneness of Tao."

 

谷 gǔ3 神 shén2 as complements - just as you wu xiang sheng .... i like that...

[Riyue]

Marblehead said:

"...being an Atheist and a Materialist, would not be able to accept line 1..."

 

 

The translation shen: god is misleading -

Somebody with a background of judeo-christian-education understands the term "god" as "Bible-God".

-

At page 36 of "The Logic of Tao Philosophy" the term shen is elaborated:

Shen is DAO - a manifestation in the phenomenal world-

...a holistic and explicit natural order

...it is not identified as a personified god.

Edited July 31, 2013 by Riyue

[Marblehead]

 

At page 36 of "The Logic of Tao Philosophy" the term shen is elaborated:

Shen is DAO - a manifestation in the phenomenal world-

...a holistic and explicit natural order

...it is not identified as a personified god.

That is the way I have always understood it. I was born into a Christian family so for my own purposes I have to make distinctions so that I am not being understood to hold to the Christian, or any other, concept of a personified god.

 

I highly doubt that Lao Tzu held any concept of a personified god.

 

(Yes, he did talk about the ancients but that is different.)

[dust]

http://ctext.org/wenzi/jing-cheng/zh

Ch.13

老子曰：大道無為，無為即無有，無有者不居也，不居者即處無形，無形者不動，不動者無言也，無言者即靜而無聲無形，無聲無形者，視之不見，聽之不聞，是謂 微妙，是謂至神，「綿綿若存」，「是謂天地根。」道無聲，故聖人強為之形，以一句為名天地之道。大以小為本，多以少為始，天子以天地為品，以萬物為資，功德至大，勢名至貴，二德之美與天地配，故不可不軌大道以為天下母

 

(TT I'll leave Wenzi translation up to you...for all I know you've done it already..)

 

 

I think that 谷神 is just a poetic alternative name for Dao -- gu/valley describing the enormous void-like nature of Dao, and shen describing its mysterious, all-present nature.

 

In which case, the silly-sounding translations aren't far off. If we accept the "valley spirit" as the "deep eternal" as the Dao, it fits right in with the other chapters that describe Dao as inexhaustible, eternal, mysterious father/mother of all things. And this fits with the Wenzi chapter above.