[TTC Study] Chapter 6 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Taoist Texts]

Based on the Chinese linguistic structure, 谷神 means the "spirit of the valley". 谷(valley) is an adjective or modifier and 神(spirit) is the subject. 谷神 is one term with compound characters. They are not two entities. It should be interpreted as the "spirit of the Valley"

 

oh noes....!!!!

 

 

Prayers Against Spirits of the Valley † His Kingdom Prophecy

 

www.hiskingdomprophecy.com/spirits-valley/

May 7, 2011 - Prayers Against Spirits of the Valley are taken from Apostle John Eckhardt's book “Prayers that Rout Demons”

 

 

 

 

[Marblehead]

Seems that John has problems with valleys and spirits that I have never experienced. He really needs to leave those spirits alone, especially those from Kentucky.

[ChiDragon]

http://ctext.org/wenzi/jing-cheng/zh

Ch.13

老子曰：大道無為，無為即無有，無有者不居也，不居者即處無形，無形者不動，不動者無言也，無言者即靜而無聲無形，無聲無形者，視之不見，聽之不聞，是謂 微妙，是謂至神，「綿綿若存」，「是謂天地根。」道無聲，故聖人強為之形，以一句為名天地之道。大以小為本，多以少為始，天子以天地為品，以萬物為資，功德至大，勢名至貴，二德之美與天地配，故不可不軌大道以為天下母

 

(TT I'll leave Wenzi translation up to you...for all I know you've done it already..)

 

 

I think that 谷神 is just a poetic alternative name for Dao -- gu/valley describing the enormous void-like nature of Dao, and shen describing its mysterious, all-present nature.

 

In which case, the silly-sounding translations aren't far off. If we accept the "valley spirit" as the "deep eternal" as the Dao, it fits right in with the other chapters that describe Dao as inexhaustible, eternal, mysterious father/mother of all things. And this fits with the Wenzi chapter above.

 

Yes, Lao Zi and Wen Zi knew that there is one, and only one, spirit of the valley which is Tao.

[Marblehead]

 

Yes, Lao Zi and Wen Zi knew that there is one, and only one, spirit of the valley which is Tao.

But I still like to visualize it as a specific place I can go to rest.

[ChiDragon]

But I still like to visualize it as a specific place I can go to rest.

 

Yeah, you can visualize it all you want with your imagination. You will rest right next to Tao or even on top of it. Furthermore, if you are lucky enough, you will be inside Tao....

[dust]

至虛恒也 Reaching eternal emptiness,

獸中孰也 Who can maintain it?

萬物方乍居以頒復也 Life flourishes all around, living in coming and going;

天道熉熉 The Way of Heaven is balance,

各復丌堇 Everything returns to its root

 

I wonder if this (ch.16 GD version) is relevant? The last character, 堇 jin, is also the last character in the MWD ch.6, which I translated as "root" in 16... though right now I can't remember why (I think just because it made more sense than any other translation)

 

I'm wondering now if one or the other is wrong..

[Marblehead]

Well, you are consistent with the way Henricks did it.

 

I have never had a problem with "returning to ones roots".

 

To me, within context, it could mean physical death or it could mean returning to ones true nature.

 

Of course, in your translation above, line 1 to line 5 would imply death. Line 2 doesn't matter but lines 3 and 4 is the beginning and the end (the coming and going).

[dust]

Yes it is at least partly about death.. though not exclusively, I feel (death isn't the only type of returning to roots..just the most powerful)

 

With regard to this chapter (6), I have now a number of possible permutations:

 

浴[/谷]神不死 valley/desire/grain spirit/god not die

是胃玄牝 is called mysterious gorge/female

玄牝之門 mysterious gorge/female door

是胃天地之根 is called heaven earth root

縣縣 / 綿綿呵其若存 stupid/worry/continuous ha! it’s like generations/life/surviving

用之不堇[/勤] its use not clay / not merely / not root [/ not regular]

[Marblehead]

Oh, I like lines 1 through 4 so much. Very sexually oriented. (But that's nature, isn't it?)

 

Have fun making lines 5 and 6 a continuation of the first four lines. Hehehe.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

I wish more text got represented as dustybeijing did it! Its has a very nice lateral-ness to it.

 

Edit: spelled dustys name wrong.

Edited November 29, 2014 by Rocky Lionmouth

[dust]

I think that way of presenting it is more faithful to the original Chinese than most translations

 

The problem is, people say "Well, that's not a translation! It's just a bunch of words!" and run off to find someone else to tell them how to interpret it..

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 6 The Mysterious Female
1. 谷神不死
2. 是謂玄牝。
3. 玄牝之門
4. 是謂天地根。
5. 綿綿若存，
6. 用之不勤。

English translation:
1. The spirit of the valley never dies.
2. It is called the mysterious female.
3. The door of the mysterious female,
4. It is called the root of heaven and earth.
5. She seems existed eternally,
6. With her endless reproduction capability.

Annotation:
1. The spirit of the valley was referred as Tao by LaoTze in this chapter. Gu(谷) means valley.
2. 谷神(gu shen) actually means the "god of the valley". Perhaps, it may sound better in English as the "spirit of the valley".

[Taoist Texts]

道德經6

《道德經》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 《列子·天瑞》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地之根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。

《老子河上公章句·成象》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。

《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 浴神□死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃□地之根。縣縣呵若存，用之不堇。

《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 浴神不死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃天地之根。縣縣呵其若存，用之不堇。

 

 

This chapter is a mess on a completely different level from the rest of the TTC which is a fine mess in its own right. Almost none of its terminology is attested anywhere else besides TTC and is not repeated within TTC.

 

Its two lines are different in purpose. The first one appears to be definitive,

 

谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。

 

in the same format as formulas in other early texts like

三面之人不死，是謂大荒之野。(Shanhai jing)

… here is a three faced man who doesn’t die, he is called the savage of great wilderness

 

The second one seems to be instructive.

 

綿綿若存，用之不勤。

 

The first protagonist in the chapters is a ‘valley spirit’, which is not attested at all besides as in TTC, which makes it is a dismissible misunderstanding. The second variant, ‘a bathing spirit’ is not attested either, however there is a rare combo graphically similar to the latter

 

內官不過九御，外官不過九品，足以供給神祇而已，豈敢厭縱其耳目心腹以亂百度？.

 

《國語 - Guo Yu》 [Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)]

 

to feed spirits 給神.

 

The first sentence then would be a short hand for: The place where the spirits are fed is called 玄牝 (a combo unique to TTC). However 玄 is an alias for Heaven 天

 

指海。 汉 扬雄 《太玄·饰》：“次五，下言如水，实以天牝。” 司马光 集注：“牝，谷也。天牝，谓海也。

http://www.zdic.net/c/9/3f/99771.htm

 

玄牝 is the same as 天牝 which is a sea, in this case a sea inside the human body as per

 

天牝從來，復得其往，氣出於腦，即不邪干。

 

..what comes from the Heavenly female send back again, let qi rise to the brain then no evil will interfere.

 

《黃帝內經 - Huangdi Neijing》《素問 - Suwen》

 

Further, this sea within the body precedes a location of 天地根 as in Wenzi

 

體本抱神，以遊天地之根 …embrace spirit within body, travel to the root…

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%A4%A9%E5%9C%B0%E4%B9%8B%E6%A0%B9#n58545

 

which must be some vestige of ancient cosmogony later relocated within the body.

 

The second part of the chapter is garbled and obviously cut short since there is no description of the results anticipated from the instructions in the chapter.

[dust]

This chapter is a mess on a completely different level from the rest of the TTC which is a fine mess in its own right.

 

No disagreement from me on that.. (as much as I love it)

 

 

The second one seems to be instructive.

 

綿綿若存，用之不勤。

 

Why instructive?

What instruction?

 

 

The first protagonist in the chapters is a ‘valley spirit’, which is not attested at all besides as in TTC, which makes it is a dismissible misunderstanding.

 

Or fairly decent evidence that more than one author is responsible for the modern TTC.

 

or

 

to me at least, 谷神 is very easily understandable as Dao. To personify Dao as a 'spirit' of sorts would enable one to talk of it 'not dying'

 

or

[see below]

 

The second variant, ‘a bathing spirit’ is not attested either, however there is a rare combo graphically similar to the latter

 

內官不過九御，外官不過九品，足以供給神祇而已，豈敢厭縱其耳目心腹以亂百度？.

 

《國語 - Guo Yu》 [Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)]

 

to feed spirits 給神.

 

Not convinced...!

 

 

The second part of the chapter is garbled and obviously cut short since there is no description of the results anticipated from the instructions in the chapter.

 

Assuming they are instructions.

 

 

 

I'll offer another interpretation, which is discernible from the permutations available:

 

 

浴神不死 The desire to be immortal [a god that does not die]

是胃玄牝 Is called the mysterious gorge

玄牝之門 The door to the mysterious gorge

是胃天地之根 Is called the root of Heaven and Earth

綿綿呵其若存 Continuous! for generations

用之不勤 Used but useless

[Marblehead]

I think that way of presenting it is more faithful to the original Chinese than most translations

 

The problem is, people say "Well, that's not a translation! It's just a bunch of words!" and run off to find someone else to tell them how to interpret it..

Thing is though, once you have the translation to your satisfaction you can then work it up into something grammatically correct in whatever language it is being translated into.

[Marblehead]

Perhaps, it may sound better in English as the "spirit of the valley".

Yes, I like that.

[Marblehead]

... the savage of great wilderness

You can keep your savage of the great wilderness. Hehehe.

[Marblehead]

浴神不死 The desire to be immortal [a god that does not die]

是胃玄牝 Is called the mysterious gorge

玄牝之門 The door to the mysterious gorge

是胃天地之根 Is called the root of Heaven and Earth

綿綿呵其若存 Continuous! for generations

用之不勤 Used but useless

I hope that wasn't offered for my consumption.

[dust]

I don't really understand why it would've been specifically for you..?

 

When I paint, I paint only what's in my head. For me. And it's nice when others like it.

When doing this translation stuff, same idea. It's not for other people -- though I'm glad when it's useful to others.

[ChiDragon]

I don't really understand why it would've been specifically for you..?

 

When I paint, I paint only what's in my head. For me. And it's nice when others like it.

When doing this translation stuff, same idea. It's not for other people -- though I'm glad when it's useful to others.

 

Besides it is useful to others, the main concern is that the translation conveys the meaning of the original without any doubt.

 

This chapter was to portray that Tao is a Mysterious Female by Lao Zi. However, one shouldn't neglect that the Chinese culture and philosophies were derived from the Yi Jing(易經). If one go to Chapter 42, then one will see that Chapters 6 and 42 are related back to the Yi Jing. Of course, one must have to be familiar with the Yi Jing about Wu Ji(無極) and Tai Ji(太極) to begin with.

 

Chapter 6 The Mysterious Female

1. The spirit of the valley never dies.

2. It is called the mysterious female.

3. The door of the mysterious female,

4. It is called the root of heaven and earth.

5. She seems existed eternally,

6. With her endless reproduction capability.

 

Chapter 42 - Genesis

1. 道生一。

2. 一生二。

3. 二生三。

4. 三生萬物。

 

Translation

1. Tao engenders One;

2. One engenders Two;

3. Two engender Three;

4. Three engender all things.

 

易經...

無極生太極 Wu Ji engenders Tai JI

太極生陰陽. Tai Ji engenders Yin-Yang

陰陽 => 8 trigrams => 64 hexagrams

 

Wu Ji(無極) is Tao;

Tai Ji is One;

Yin-Yang is two;

Trigrams and the hexagrams are all things.

Edited November 29, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

This chapter is a mess on a completely different level from the rest of the TTC which is a fine mess in its own right. Almost none of its terminology is attested anywhere else besides TTC and is not repeated within TTC.

 

I personally have always had a problem with 'valley spirit' and was easily convinced by others earlier in this thread that Valley is not the real meaning...

 

Its two lines are different in purpose. The first one appears to be definitive,

 

Interesting point

 

The first protagonist in the chapters is a ‘valley spirit’, which is not attested at all besides as in TTC, which makes it is a dismissible misunderstanding. The second variant, ‘a bathing spirit’ is not attested either, however there is a rare combo graphically similar to the latter

 

內官不過九御，外官不過九品，足以供給神祇而已，豈敢厭縱其耳目心腹以亂百度？.

 

《國語 - Guo Yu》 [Warring States (475 BC - 221 BC)]

 

to feed spirits 給神.

 

Gu Shen is also in Liezi and Baopuzi... have you see these? I can send this as needed.

 

The first sentence then would be a short hand for: The place where the spirits are fed is called 玄牝 (a combo unique to TTC). However 玄 is an alias for Heaven 天

 

Yes, this is true... I have often argued that 玄 is better understood as 'origin'... origins are a mystery but for some reason, 'mystery' has been the accepted translation in most cases.

 

指海。 汉 扬雄 《太玄·饰》：“次五，下言如水，实以天牝。” 司马光 集注：“牝，谷也。天牝，谓海也。

http://www.zdic.net/c/9/3f/99771.htm

 

玄牝 is the same as 天牝 which is a sea, in this case a sea inside the human body as per

 

天牝從來，復得其往，氣出於腦，即不邪干。

 

..what comes from the Heavenly female send back again, let qi rise to the brain then no evil will interfere.

 

《黃帝內經 - Huangdi Neijing》《素問 - Suwen》

 

Further, this sea within the body precedes a location of 天地根 as in Wenzi

 

體本抱神，以遊天地之根 …embrace spirit within body, travel to the root…

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E5%A4%A9%E5%9C%B0%E4%B9%8B%E6%A0%B9#n58545

 

which must be some vestige of ancient cosmogony later relocated within the body.

 

​Brilliant find... This makes me think of the Central Scripture of Laozi...

[dawei]

I'll offer another interpretation, which is discernible from the permutations available:

 

 

浴神不死 The desire to be immortal [a god that does not die]

是胃玄牝 Is called the mysterious gorge

玄牝之門 The door to the mysterious gorge

是胃天地之根 Is called the root of Heaven and Earth

綿綿呵其若存 Continuous! for generations

用之不勤 Used but useless

 

I do applaud your seeking a translated meaning... and the first line is really a great swing as you ignore trying to use 'valley spirit' in any manner which I can greatly appreciate.

 

But I personally don't like 'gorge' as I am confident the female aspect is intended; that which is the origin of life is female and immortality means nothing if you cannot be born in the first place.

 

玄 for me means origin, not mystery...

 

'Root' is ok if one can see it ties to origin... which I think is support for my previous point.

 

不勤 - inexhaustible ; Its use is never exhausted

[Taoist Texts]

Why instructive?What instruction?

 

to guard 'it' non-stop 綿綿若存，

 

Gu Shen is also in Liezi and Baopuzi... have you see these? I can send this as needed.

 

Liezi just quotes TTC so its not an independent source; could not find it in BPZ on ctext

http://ctext.org/baopuzi?searchu=%E8%B0%B7%E7%A5%9E

so yes please if you could

 

 

. This makes me think of the Central Scripture of Laozi...

me too, since they belong to same tradition but different strands of it since TTC nomenclature is not in Zhongjing

[Taoist Texts]

浴神不死 The desire to be immortal [a god that does not die]

 

i would love 浴 or 谷 to be variants of 欲 but is it supported elswhere?

[Taoist Texts]

also in favor of neigong theory from a roughly contemporaneous text

 

容成公者，自稱黃帝師，見於周穆王，能善輔導之事。取精於玄牝，其要谷神不死，守生養氣者也。髮白更黑，齒落更生。事與老子同，亦云老子師也。

 

http://ctext.org/lie-xian-zhuan?searchu=%E7%8E%84%E7%89%9D#n285625

 

take semen send to the Dark Female wanting the gushen not to die