dust Posted November 29, 2014 Guodian 30 不谷以兵强於天下 Are without desire to wage war 57 我谷不谷而民自樸 I desire no desire and the people simplify themselves 46 咎莫僉唬谷㝵 No fault is more common than greed The GD author, at least, very certainly used 谷 as desire I had 綿綿 as "continuous" -- where does 'guard' come from? I do applaud your seeking a translated meaning... and the first line is really a great swing as you ignore trying to use 'valley spirit' in any manner which I can greatly appreciate. But I personally don't like 'gorge' as I am confident the female aspect is intended; that which is the origin of life is female and immortality means nothing if you cannot be born in the first place. 玄 for me means origin, not mystery... 'Root' is ok if one can see it ties to origin... which I think is support for my previous point. 不勤 - inexhaustible ; Its use is never exhausted But gorge represents the female, doesn't it? The receiving 玄 means dark, black, profound. I found no other meanings previously, so have always translated along these lines. I'm open to the idea that it might mean 'origin' 勤 means hard-working, industrious, constant -- an opposite of this could easily be not-hard-working, not-constant, right? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted November 29, 2014 Guodian 30 不谷以兵强於天下 Are without desire to wage war 57 我谷不谷而民自樸 I desire no desire and the people simplify themselves 46 咎莫僉唬谷㝵 No fault is more common than greed The GD author, at least, very certainly used 谷 as desire Excellent, excellent Dusty, that finally settles it. One mystery less, there is no valley spirit in TTC, there never have been, and 2500 years of cryptic vocabulary is owed to a simple misread. Brilliant. I had 綿綿 as "continuous" -- where does 'guard' come from? hmm i just noticed that ctext does not GD for ch. 6. By guard I meant 存 道德經6 《道德經》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 《列子·天瑞》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地之根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 《老子河上公章句·成象》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 浴神□死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃□地之根。縣縣呵若存，用之不堇。 《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 浴神不死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃天地之根。縣縣呵其若存，用之不堇。 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted November 29, 2014 Ascribe it to the simplicity I've been cultivating, perhaps, but I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 29, 2014 (edited) Why not just work the Received Version to avoid lots of misunderstanding, mistranslation,misinterpretation, misleading and arguments....??? 《道德經》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 Edited November 29, 2014 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted November 29, 2014 (edited) Well, for the purpose of this post, I'll go ahead and assume that it was indeed sarcasm... After all the potential misunderstandings and garbles etc that we've covered, including all the pieces in your earlier post, many of which require fairly large leaps of faith to resolve, why should it not be as simple as one 'wrong' character? Not necessarily even a wrong character -- maybe the correct character written at the wrong period in history... As for me...I think perhaps it's a combination. The Gushen refers to the Tao, but there's still the hint of a possibility of gu being yu. Pin 牝 can also mean gorge (i.e. valley). "Root" or origin also appears as 根 and potentially as 玄 and even 堇 [勤] An orgy of double/triple meanings with references to sex, femininity, immortality (the absurdity of), and of course Tao.. Edited November 30, 2014 by dustybeijing 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted November 29, 2014 Ascribe it to the simplicity I've been cultivating, perhaps, but I honestly can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not... I am genuinely laudatory and elated at your insight Also I am sarcastic about all poor souls who held forth on the subject of valley spirits. What can you do thou? Elvis has left the building. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted November 29, 2014 with references to sex, femininity, immortality (the absurdity of), and of course Tao.. you had me at sex Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted November 29, 2014 Why not just work the Received Version to avoid lots of misunderstanding, mistranslation,misinterpretation, misleading and arguments....??? 'cause we really really like all of those also... work is a four letter word 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted November 29, 2014 you had me at sex So many responses to that...but here's not the place Well, you're more laudatory and elated than me...not sure it can be quite so simple.. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 29, 2014 How about some Red PIne? The valley spirit that doesn't die we call the dark womb the dark womb's mouth we call the source of creation as real as gossamer silk and yet we can't exhaust it 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 30, 2014 (edited) How about some Red PIne? The valley spirit that doesn't die we call the dark womb the dark womb's mouth we call the source of creation as real as gossamer silk and yet we can't exhaust it 《道德經》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 I don't see where the original text that says dark womb.....!!! Edited November 30, 2014 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 30, 2014 (edited) hmm i just noticed that ctext does not GD for ch. 6. By guard I meant 存 道德經6 《道德經》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 《列子·天瑞》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地之根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 《老子河上公章句·成象》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 浴神□死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃□地之根。縣縣呵若存，用之不堇。 《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 浴神不死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃天地之根。縣縣呵其若存，用之不堇。 存: accumulate deposit exist keep live 存 堇 is a herbal vegetable 堇 Edited November 30, 2014 by ChiDragon 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted November 30, 2014 存: accumulate deposit exist keep live 存 agreed. accumulate and deposit is better than guard 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 30, 2014 agreed. accumulate and deposit is better than guard Would you accept the following translation....??? 綿綿若存 She seems to be existed continuously. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted November 30, 2014 yes, but only partially. You see, TTC is a practical manual and as such should contain instructions in a basic three part format 1. Premise/Problem 2 Instruction 3 Results. What you offer is a description, while i believe that there is an instruction in there. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 30, 2014 (edited) yes, but only partially. You see, TTC is a practical manual and as such should contain instructions in a basic three part format 1. Premise/Problem 2 Instruction 3 Results. What you offer is a description, while i believe that there is an instruction in there. Good, I am glad that you agree and making prgogress. I also agree partially that [1. Premise/Problem 2 Instruction 3 Results] are only take place in different chapters of the TTC. It is not necessarily that has to be true for all the phrases. It is true that lines 5 and 6 are exactly a description. Thus that's why you had come to such conclusion but with a wishful thinking that should be instructional. 5. 綿綿若存， 6. 用之不勤 5. She seems to be existed eternally, 6. With her endless reproduction capability. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In addition, I would like to point out that the character 縣 in the line below was in error: 縣縣呵若存 緜 is a synonym for 綿. It seems to me that 縣 was mistakenly used for 緜 in the following versions: 《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 浴神□死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃□地之根。縣縣呵若存，用之不堇。 《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 浴神不死，是胃玄牝。玄牝之門，是胃天地之根。縣縣呵其若存，用之不堇。 In fact, the corrections had been made in the later versions. 《道德經》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 《列子·天瑞》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地之根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 《老子河上公章句·成象》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 Edited November 30, 2014 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 30, 2014 《道德經》: 谷神不死，是謂玄牝。玄牝之門，是謂天地根。綿綿若存，用之不勤。 I don't see where the original text that says dark womb.....!!! Red Pine is known to take liberties with his translations (self admitted) (actually, his are more like transliterations). But he does present support from others in his notes as to why he has chosen his method of translation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 30, 2014 Red Pine is known to take liberties with his translations (self admitted) (actually, his are more like transliterations). But he does present support from others in his notes as to why he has chosen his method of translation. I don't know what you are trying to tell me. I don't know there was any special method in translation but the translation from one language to another. Like just get the true meaning across as close as possible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 30, 2014 I don't know what you are trying to tell me. I don't know there was any special method in translation but the translation from one language to another. Like just get the true meaning across as close as possible. Okay. I will try again. You have a Chinese character. You want to translate it into English (or most any other language). You look in the dictionary of translations and you see six different words that could be used to translate that one Chinese character. So you first have to look at all the other words in the thought series that the Chinese character is found in and try to get a "feel" for the "thought" the original writer of the Chinese character was trying to present. Your own already established understandings and opinions will dictate what you think the original was meant to represent and you will select the one word that closest represents what you think the word is supposed to mean. A translation from one Roman language to another is rather easy. Translations from German to English is rather easy if one is fluent with both languages. From Chinese to English is much different. Much needs be added tot he English translation for it to make any sense because in the original Chinese much was unspoken but assumed it would be properly understood. Red Pine tries to make his translations as easy as possible for an English reader. Therefore he does a lot of transliteration, adding words that were missing in the Chinese but were understood by a Chinese reader. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted November 30, 2014 I agree with you both But I don't think Laozi meant 'womb' But I can't be sure 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 30, 2014 I agree with you both But I don't think Laozi meant 'womb' But I can't be sure Hehehe. Yes, I would question the usage of the word "womb" as well. But Red Pine did justify, to his own mind, its usage. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted November 30, 2014 So you first have to look at all the other words in the thought series that the Chinese character is found in and try to get a "feel" for the "thought" the original writer of the Chinese character was trying to present. Your own already established understandings and opinions will dictate what you think the original was meant to represent and you will select the one word that closest represents what you think the word is supposed to mean. Good explanation. The trick is that the most common 'words' may not even convey the 'meaning', and that is part of the appreciate in even looking at different translations; what it represented to them. In context, a chinese character can carry too many possible meanings. I once said that chinese language is similar to 'fill in the blanks' game. The problem is that this can lead to lots of guessing on some level. It seems we understand what he meant by dark womb but would not of chosen that picture; and that is another facet to choosing a word, it may also offer a picture meaning. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 30, 2014 (edited) .............Red Pine tries to make his translations as easy as possible for an English reader. Therefore he does a lot of transliteration, adding words that were missing in the Chinese but were understood by a Chinese reader. You're very correct in all of the above. Except Red Pine didn't do a every good job as you'd claimed as he was. There was no way that one can translate anything for the message with "dark womb". With justification...??? come on....!!! Edited November 30, 2014 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 30, 2014 You're very correct in all of the above. Except Red Pine didn't do a every good job as you'd claimed as he was. There was no way that one can translate anything for the message with "dark womb". With justification...??? come on....!!! I never judged him. Please don't put that weight on me. However, Red's notes to that read: Su Ch'e says, "A valley is empty but has form. A valley spirit is empty and has no form. What is empty and has no form is not alive. So how can it die? 'Valley spirit' refers to its virtue. 'Dark womb' refers to its capacity. This womb gives birth to the ten thousand things, and we call it dark because we see it give birth but not how it gives birth." ... and ... Hsueh Hui says, "The words Lao-tzu chooses are often determined by the demands of rhyme and should not be restricted to their primary meaning, 'Thus, p'in:female animal can also be read p'in:womb." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted November 30, 2014 (edited) I never judged him. Please don't put that weight on me. However, Red's notes to that read: Su Ch'e says, "A valley is empty but has form. A valley spirit is empty and has no form. What is empty and has no form is not alive. So how can it die? 'Valley spirit' refers to its virtue. 'Dark womb' refers to its capacity. This womb gives birth to the ten thousand things, and we call it dark because we see it give birth but not how it gives birth." ... and ... Hsueh Hui says, "The words Lao-tzu chooses are often determined by the demands of rhyme and should not be restricted to their primary meaning, 'Thus, p'in:female animal can also be read p'in:womb." Fine...!!! Thank you for those quotes. It seems to me those quotes are personal interpretations but not the consensus of all the knowledgeable native scholars. Thus one should not rely on them to reflect the contextual meaning of Chapter 6. Edited November 30, 2014 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
