[TTC Study] Chapter 6 of the Tao Teh Ching

[ChiDragon]

Yeah, I have experienced my Yin side many times. I used to think that I had a little gay blood in me. Hehehe.

 

Yeah, I used to think that I had a little lesbian blood in me. I have experienced my Yang side many times. Hehehe.

 

 

 

PS....

dawei...you see how it works....??? The Yin and Yang in Tao has perfect balance.

Edited January 2, 2012 by ChiDragon

[GOOWDAY]

堇jin few;little;reduce

 

There is one thing in the world,It never die,and its use never reduce,It is the root of the heavan and the earth.

 

Now we call it: information

Edited January 4, 2012 by GOOWDAY

[dawei]

dawei...you see how it works....??? The Yin and Yang in Tao has perfect balance.

I see the concept which we call Dao as a non-entity and is related to the concepts of Yin and Yang as a part of the energetic and manifest world. I do not ascribe Yin and Yang to the undivided, non-entity concept which I would call Dao.

 

IMO, as long as you see yourself as Yin or Yang (or any combination), your still struggling in the manifest world.

Edited January 2, 2012 by dawei

[ChiDragon]

Emotions goes up and down, isn't that the combination of Yin and Yang at work in your inner soul....???

[dawei]

Emotions goes up and down, isn't that the combination of Yin and Yang at work in your inner soul....???

I don't apply the concept of emotions to Dao.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

[Marblehead]

Well, I like it.

 

And yes, I can deal with the suggestion that the valley is the source. (Also the place of return.)

 

Your point of the valley being synonymous with the middle path may be well taken.

[ChiDragon]

H.E...

 

So, you did put some effort into learning Chinese......

[Stosh]

I dont speak the language and couldnt guess at translation

accuracy ,, but I love english well and your translation

is beautiful to mine ears.(and brain)

Id buy your book

If you write one.

Stosh

[Harmonious Emptiness]

I dont speak the language and couldnt guess at translation

accuracy ,, but I love english well and your translation

is beautiful to mine ears.(and brain)

Id buy your book

If you write one.

Stosh

 

haha Thanks bro!

[sree]

Mr Chi, judging from the discussion thus far, each has gone away with his own take on Chapter 6 which seems

like a magician's hat. One guy pulls out a rabbit, the next a dove, yet another a red scarf...and so on and on.

The wonderful thing is that everyone is happy with his or her prize of wisdom. No quarreling allowed.

 

Western science, on the other hand, is exacting. If it is a rabbit, it is not a hare; if it is a dove, it is not a crow.

And if you don't get it right in double quick time, you don't get to eat.

 

So, what is the value in the study of the Tao Te Ching? Does our survival depend on getting it right? Or has it

fallen to the level of Shakespeare affording a display of wit and wordplay with much ado about nothing? Surely, Chinese scholarship in the tradition of Confucius was more serious than this.

 

Let's look at your translation below.

Why is such a straightforward verse 谷神不死 so befuddling?

 

 

Chapter 6 The Mysterious Female

1. 谷神不死

2. 是謂玄牝。

3. 玄牝之門

4. 是謂天地根。

5. 綿綿若存，

6. 用之不勤。

 

English translation:

1. The spirit of the valley never dies.

2. It is called the mysterious female.

3. The door of the mysterious female,

4. It is called the root of heaven and earth.

5. She seems existed eternally,

6. With her endless reproduction capability.

Edited December 25, 2012 by sree

[ChiDragon]

"Why is such a straightforward verse 谷神不死 so befuddling?"

 

People were so locked up to the meaning of each character, 谷神, without considering the rest of the context.

Without knowing what the meaning of Line 1, one still could figure out what is the meaning of the "spirit of the Valley" meant from Lines 2 through 6. If Lines 2 through 6 were not talking about Tao then what else can it be.....??? Even from Line 1 by itself, if not Tao never dies, then what else could that be....???

 

Tao has no beginning and no ending which is a good implication that Tao never dies. If the "Spirit of the Valley" was not an implication of Tao, then what else can it be......???

Edited December 25, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Jeff]

Mr Chi, judging from the discussion thus far, each has gone away with his own take on Chapter 6 which seems

like a magician's hat. One guy pulls out a rabbit, the next a dove, yet another a red scarf...and so on and on.

The wonderful thing is that everyone is happy with his or her prize of wisdom. No quarreling allowed.

 

Western science, on the other hand, is exacting. If it is a rabbit, it is not a hare; if it is a dove, it is not a crow.

And if you don't get it right in double quick time, you don't get to eat.

 

So, what is the value in the study of the Tao Te Ching? Does our survival depend on getting it right? Or has it

fallen to the level of Shakespeare affording a display of wit and wordplay with much ado about nothing? Surely, Chinese scholarship in the tradition of Confucius was more serious than this.

 

Let's look at your translation below.

Why is such a straightforward verse 谷神不死 so befuddling?

 

 

Chapter 6 The Mysterious Female

1. 谷神不死

2. 是謂玄牝。

3. 玄牝之門

4. 是謂天地根。

5. 綿綿若存，

6. 用之不勤。

 

English translation:

1. The spirit of the valley never dies.

2. It is called the mysterious female.

3. The door of the mysterious female,

4. It is called the root of heaven and earth.

5. She seems existed eternally,

6. With her endless reproduction capability.

 

Mr. Sree,

 

You seem to see a hard and set meaning in the above words. Who is it that you see that... has existed eternally, can endlessly reproduce, between heaven & earth, and is a spirit?

 

[ChiDragon]

1. The spirit of the valley never dies.

2. It is called the mysterious female.

3. The door of the mysterious female,

4. It is called the root of heaven and earth.

5. She seems existed eternally,

6. With her endless reproduction capability.

 

Metaphoric interpretation:

1. Tao never dies.

2. Tao is the mysterious female.

3. The door opened to Tao.

4. Tao is the root(creator) of heaven and earth.

5. Tao is eternal.

6. Tao has the endless reproduction capability.

 

We are talking about Tao as a spirit but not just a spirit of any kind...!!!.

[sree]

Mr. Sree,

 

You seem to see a hard and set meaning in the above words. Who is it that you see that... has existed eternally, can endlessly reproduce, between heaven & earth, and is a spirit?

 

 

I don't see a set meaning in any word. But I do feel that each Chapter has only one central message that cannot be massaged to your liking or to suit your particular worldview. This belief, that no two people think alike and everyone is an individual with equal rights to be different, may work in choosing your happy meal at McDonald's but not in the defusing of a bomb.

 

I don't see a spirit. If you are seeing things, then you are reading literal meanings into every translated word.

[sree]

We are talking about Tao as a spirit but not just a spirit of any kind...!!!.

 

And definitely not a 谷神 spirit or a 齐天大圣.

Chinese scholarship in the tradition of Confucius was the passion of incorruptible brilliant minds in the quest for living life the right way and not as hedonistic, selfish brutes. It was the realization of 天人合一.

Edited December 25, 2012 by sree

[sree]

 

People were so locked up to the meaning of each character, 谷神, without considering the rest of the context.

 

Precisely! 玄牝 was another stumbling block.

[dawei]

And definitely not a 谷神 spirit or a 齐天大圣.

Chinese scholarship in the tradition of Confucius was the passion of incorruptible brilliant minds in the quest for living life the right way and not as hedonistic, selfish brutes. It was the realization of 天人合一.

Your happy meal is a Confucian understanding of the DDJ... Have it your way (Burger King slogan).... but realize that Tao is simply a part of something larger... so, IMO, Tao is not the final answer because Spirit is not Tao alone...

 

And you should consider 玄 as origin or primordial... nothing mysterious except as a stumbling block...

[sree]

Your happy meal is a Confucian understanding of the DDJ... Have it your way (Burger King slogan).... but realize that Tao is simply a part of something larger... so, IMO, Tao is not the final answer because Spirit is not Tao alone...

 

And you should consider 玄 as origin or primordial... nothing mysterious except as a stumbling block...

 

You are a self-professed member of a Taoist cult. This is your choice. My approach to the studying of the Classics is that of a scholar. We have nothing in common.

[dawei]

You are a self-professed member of a Taoist cult. This is your choice. My approach to the studying of the Classics is that of a scholar. We have nothing in common.

What Taoist cult is that? I don't profess to follow any lineage or any specific practice... other than an interest in Medical Qigong. I am eclectic in accepting many ways, teachings and energy work.

 

Your welcome to approach such topics by reading books alone but let's try to keep stay calm and be careful of accusations which are silly.

 

Realize the Confucian sub-forum in another area.

[sree]

What Taoist cult is that? I don't profess to follow any lineage or any specific practice... other than an interest in Medical Qigong. I am eclectic in accepting many ways, teachings and energy work.

 

Your welcome to approach such topics by reading books alone but let's try to keep stay calm and be careful of accusations which are silly.

 

Realize the Confucian sub-forum in another area.

 

A scholar is not a bookworm. And a scholar in the Confucian tradition is not a student of Confucian classics.

You are quite limited in your understanding. But that is fine. You are not to be blamed. Mao Zedong has done much harm to the the Chinese people and you are an unfortunate victim.

[sree]

Tao has no beginning and no ending which is a good implication that Tao never dies. If the "Spirit of the Valley" was not an implication of Tao, then what else can it be......???

 

"Spirit of the Valley" is just a figure of speech. But let's examine the "never die" aspect of life itself. Chapter 7 talks about this. Shall we move over to Chapter 7 to explore this futher?

[Jeff]

 

I don't see a set meaning in any word. But I do feel that each Chapter has only one central message that cannot be massaged to your liking or to suit your particular worldview. This belief, that no two people think alike and everyone is an individual with equal rights to be different, may work in choosing your happy meal at McDonald's but not in the defusing of a bomb.

 

I don't see a spirit. If you are seeing things, then you are reading literal meanings into every translated word.

 

Mr. Sree,

 

With my question, I was asking for your interpretation of the chapter. All you have shared is that you "don't see a spirit". You seem to have your own "happy meal" to share, or do you consider it a Confucian bomb?

 

I am interested in your perception.

 

[dawei]

A scholar is not a bookworm. And a scholar in the Confucian tradition is not a student of Confucian classics.

You are quite limited in your understanding. But that is fine. You are not to be blamed. Mao Zedong has done much harm to the the Chinese people and you are an unfortunate victim.

And to an understanding of daoism, TCM, etc... you are not a victim? LOL

 

You forsake all the earliest understandings of Lao Zi in exchange for a Wang Bi and communist purging of the spiritual aspects of TCM and daoism... Your too funny sometimes at your own ideas.

 

Realize you want science as your yardstick. Actual experience in what Lao Zi talks about seems irrelevant to you. Westerners have no ability to understand... anything other than your scholarly way is a belief system... That is fine and limiting.

 

I'll turn to energy work; healing; reading the ancient texts; and allow an understanding for why Lao Zi is also referred to as 太上老君. I look to expand and allow and accept the history which Lao Zi is a part of. I hope you are at least are tolerant that some people are capable of exploring such experiences and understanding instead of blaming obstacles. Is that limiting?

 

We simply have different approaches. Can you tolerate and allow that here?

[dawei]

"Spirit of the Valley" is just a figure of speech. But let's examine the "never die" aspect of life itself. Chapter 7 talks about this. Shall we move over to Chapter 7 to explore this futher?

Realize that 'valley' is not the original chinese... the original is 浴神.

 

And realize that this 'figure of speech' also occurs in the Liezi (列子) and the Baopuzi (抱朴子). Ergo, it is an ancient formula mentioned by three persons which are not really of scholarly backgrounds but of daoist energy and immortality...

 

But I did want to simply share with you my scholarly research from the past... I honestly hope we can discuss and exchange such ideas but we don't have to agree.