Any 12-steppers in the room?

[manitou]

I was just wondering how many of us prior derelicts have made it into this forum? And if you're here, do you find that the 12 step process was instrumental in achieving any degree of clarity that you may possess at this time?

[Aaron]

I'm a former 12 stepper. I've looked for ways to reconcile the two ideas (the Tao and 12 Steps), but in the end, I think the 12 steps, regardless of all of its apologetics is still very much a Judeo-Christian organization with Judeo-Christian ethics, whose goal is to advocate Judeo-Christian ideology, rather than allow for personal freedom.

 

With that said, if it's working for you, stick to it. It's all just hypothetical until we reach the end. Everyone should do what they feel is right for themselves, rather than what other people tell them is right for them. If recovery in the 12 steps feels right, then do it.

 

Aaron

[Vajrahridaya]

I think A.A. as a peer support group can be very helpful. One doesn't have to personally interpret the concept of a "higher power" as a supreme being of the universe. For me is the Buddhas, bodhisattva's and my own highest potential.

[manitou]

Twinner - I was speaking more of the actual inventory and amends process in regards to achieving a degree of clarity. You know, the humbility thing.

[fizix]

I'm a former 12 stepper. I've looked for ways to reconcile the two ideas (the Tao and 12 Steps), but in the end, I think the 12 steps, regardless of all of its apologetics is still very much a Judeo-Christian organization with Judeo-Christian ethics, whose goal is to advocate Judeo-Christian ideology, rather than allow for personal freedom.

 

With that said, if it's working for you, stick to it. It's all just hypothetical until we reach the end. Everyone should do what they feel is right for themselves, rather than what other people tell them is right for them. If recovery in the 12 steps feels right, then do it.

 

Aaron

I've been part of a 12 step program for the past 3 years. To say that it is a Judeo-Christian organization whose goals is to advocate Judeo-Christian ideology, rather than allow for personal freedom...well, wow, I think that's the clearest possible indication that you are not truly a "former 12 stepper" as I can guarantee you never actually worked the steps correctly with a sponsor or even have much experience in the Rooms; just because you went to a few meetings does not mean anything... besides, someone who has truly understood the power and principles (which has NOTHING to do with Judeo-Christian ideology, but are simply pure SPIRITUAL principles) is and always will be a 12 stepper, not a 'former', for it becomes evident that it is one of the most powerful yet simple spiritual programs. Many confuse the steps of the Anonymous Fellowships as religious based, merely because of the mention of a 'higher power' that gets eluded to as God on many individual's personal level, however if one were to truly commit to the 12 steps they would see it is a SPIRITUAL, not religious program.

[Vajrahridaya]

I've been part of a 12 step program for the past 3 years. To say that it is a Judeo-Christian organization whose goals is to advocate Judeo-Christian ideology, rather than allow for personal freedom...well, wow, I think that's the clearest possible indication that you are not truly a "former 12 stepper" as I can guarantee you never actually worked the steps correctly with a sponsor or even have much experience in the Rooms; just because you went to a few meetings does not mean anything... besides, someone who has truly understood the power and principles (which has NOTHING to do with Judeo-Christian ideology, but are simply pure SPIRITUAL principles) is and always will be a 12 stepper, not a 'former', for it becomes evident that it is one of the most powerful yet simple spiritual programs. Many confuse the steps of the Anonymous Fellowships as religious based, merely because of the mention of a 'higher power' that gets eluded to as God on many individual's personal level, however if one were to truly commit to the 12 steps they would see it is a SPIRITUAL, not religious program.

 

I agree.

[Aaron]

I've been part of a 12 step program for the past 3 years. To say that it is a Judeo-Christian organization whose goals is to advocate Judeo-Christian ideology, rather than allow for personal freedom...well, wow, I think that's the clearest possible indication that you are not truly a "former 12 stepper" as I can guarantee you never actually worked the steps correctly with a sponsor or even have much experience in the Rooms; just because you went to a few meetings does not mean anything... besides, someone who has truly understood the power and principles (which has NOTHING to do with Judeo-Christian ideology, but are simply pure SPIRITUAL principles) is and always will be a 12 stepper, not a 'former', for it becomes evident that it is one of the most powerful yet simple spiritual programs. Many confuse the steps of the Anonymous Fellowships as religious based, merely because of the mention of a 'higher power' that gets eluded to as God on many individual's personal level, however if one were to truly commit to the 12 steps they would see it is a SPIRITUAL, not religious program.

 

Actually I was a practicing 12 stepper for around 4 years before I got tired of the whole "you need a sponsor" and "meeting makers make it". What I realized, after much time in the program, was that it wasn't the twelve steps that got me sober, but rather a few simple ideas that were realized while I was in the program. First that I couldn't safely drink because I'm an alcoholic (the first step), second the reasons why I drank (fourth and fifth steps), and thirdly, an attempt to clear up the "wreckage of the past" (eighth and ninth steps), so that I didn't end up drinking again. Changing the way I behaved was important too, but in the end, I know for a fact (they keep track of these statistics) that if I had chosen another method to become sober, I would've been just as successful.

 

I'm not saying anything is wrong with AA or the Twelve Steps, but what I can tell you is that it definitely is based on Christian mores and implies a Judeo-Christian element. With that said, I am not anti-twelve steps, I think they do work and for some people they are the best way to get sober. What I am is anti-absolutism, in that many of the people tend to follow the path of "our way or the highway".

 

You have to have a sponsor? I was always of the mind you only needed to have a sponsor to help you through the twelve steps. Meeting makers make it? I haven't been to a meeting in over a year and I don't have the desire to drink. The only way you can truly have a happy fulfilled life is if you're a member of the program (the premise being "We've suffered so much, we're the only ones able to appreciate life"), all of these are false statements that are intended to keep people going to AA.

 

I was a member and I can discuss many other facets with you if you want. I finished my steps with a sponsor, did my fifth step, worked my ninth step, continued my daily inventory (something I still do), but in the end found that I disagreed with many of the things advocated in the program, because I thought it was being advocated so that people could have influence over others (super sponsors to the rescue).

 

Sorry for the sarcasm, but if you're attending meetings you know what I'm talking about. Don't assume because I disagree with the program, that I wasn't a member or "didn't get it", I did, maybe more than you have.

 

My name is Aaron and I'm an alcoholic.

Edited December 6, 2010 by Twinner

[Aaron]

Twinner - I was speaking more of the actual inventory and amends process in regards to achieving a degree of clarity. You know, the humbility thing.

 

 

Hello Manitou,

 

I would say that the inventory is absolutely a humbling experience. My problem is that they refer to it as a moral inventory, as if the reason why people become alcoholics is because they are immoral. I advocate a personal inventory, I just don't think it should be a moral inventory, but actually be about where you have caused harm to others or yourself, which is what they claim it's meant to be, but rarely is it practiced as such.

 

In regards to amends, that is perhaps the most humbling, but it's not enough, if you're simply trying to be humble. As you've probably heard a million times already, "Humility is knowing that you are no better or no worse than anyone else." Humiliation is different. The purpose of the ninth step is to clean up the wreckage of the past, not to instill one with humility. If you keep that in mind, then it becomes a simpler process and one that is less likely to turn ugly for you or others.

 

Aaron

[Vajrahridaya]

I'm really getting a lot out of this thread as I think I might be an alcoholic. I'm trying to figure out what it is? In my life, I'll quit for a few years, but it becomes extreme, like I don't socialize at all, I lock myself up at home and work and become somewhat anti-social. I will go to spiritual retreats and yoga class, but most everyone even at these places has a drink or two at night or during dinner parties, or during birthdays so I can't really socialize with them either if I'm in a not drinking phase. So, it seems I can't get away from being around it socially and when I have one drink it's like there is a dimensional shift in my consciousness and I feel it. I have lots of fun, I enjoy it, but then there's a point where I go from enjoyment to self destruction. Then my spiritual practice starts falling away and my lucid dreaming practice suffers and my meditations suffer and get dulled down, etc. I'm a happy drunk, but then sometimes it gets out of hand and sometimes it gets really out of hand. What is it in us, is it just chemical, is it completely mental, is it both. Probably both. But, supposedly it's hereditary, as my fathers father was an alcoholic. I'm trying to understand? What makes us different from those that can have a couple drinks every once in a while?

[Aaron]

I'm really getting a lot out of this thread as I think I might be an alcoholic. I'm trying to figure out what it is? In my life, I'll quit for a few years, but it becomes extreme, like I don't socialize at all, I lock myself up at home and work and become somewhat anti-social. I will go to spiritual retreats and yoga class, but most everyone even at these places has a drink or two at night or during dinner parties, or during birthdays so I can't really socialize with them either if I'm in a not drinking phase. So, it seems I can't get away from being around it socially and when I have one drink it's like there is a dimensional shift in my consciousness and I feel it. I have lots of fun, I enjoy it, but then there's a point where I go from enjoyment to self destruction. Then my spiritual practice starts falling away and my lucid dreaming practice suffers and my meditations suffer and get dulled down, etc. I'm a happy drunk, but then sometimes it gets out of hand and sometimes it gets really out of hand. What is it in us, is it just chemical, is it completely mental, is it both. Probably both. But, supposedly it's hereditary, as my fathers father was an alcoholic. I'm trying to understand? What makes us different from those that can have a couple drinks every once in a while?

 

Hello Vaj,

 

I can't tell you why you drink, I can only tell you why I drink. If you have a problem, if you believe you have a problem, then there's no reason why you shouldn't check out AA or another program. There are people that are willing to help you and can talk to you about these things. You are not alone. If you want to talk, please feel free to message me.

 

Aaron

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

I'm really getting a lot out of this thread as I think I might be an alcoholic. I'm trying to figure out what it is? In my life, I'll quit for a few years, but it becomes extreme, like I don't socialize at all, I lock myself up at home and work and become somewhat anti-social. I will go to spiritual retreats and yoga class, but most everyone even at these places has a drink or two at night or during dinner parties, or during birthdays so I can't really socialize with them either if I'm in a not drinking phase. So, it seems I can't get away from being around it socially and when I have one drink it's like there is a dimensional shift in my consciousness and I feel it. I have lots of fun, I enjoy it, but then there's a point where I go from enjoyment to self destruction. Then my spiritual practice starts falling away and my lucid dreaming practice suffers and my meditations suffer and get dulled down, etc. I'm a happy drunk, but then sometimes it gets out of hand and sometimes it gets really out of hand. What is it in us, is it just chemical, is it completely mental, is it both. Probably both. But, supposedly it's hereditary, as my fathers father was an alcoholic. I'm trying to understand? What makes us different from those that can have a couple drinks every once in a while?

 

Vaj, I kind of suspected there was a problem with some of the stuff you posted over the past year and a half. No judgement, bro. Getting to this realization is what is important. If you think you might have a problem, then you probably do. And yes, alcoholics or "problem drinkers" can't drink like "normal" people. I too,have strayed near the edge, what's important is that we do something about it. I think all the spiritual work you've done will be strongly in your favor.

You have to get away from that "my teacher says I can drink in moderation" stuff. It seems that you can't, so start from there.

Edited December 7, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

Thanks guys. I want to be how I was without it again, so much clearer. So, I'm going to do that and get the support I need in order to do so. I think AA as a peer support group is good, even though I will of course re-interpret their spiritual premise from within. I do want to try the 12 step program. I'm willing to do anything that will evolve me.

[RyanO]

...

You have to get away from that "my teacher says I can drink in moderation" stuff. It seems that you can't, so start from there.

 

Haha, I'm actually drunk as I write this . Does that mean I have a problem?

 

The rampant alcohol consumption in our (American) society fascinates me. It is true that much of my drinking negates many of my fitness and spiritual goals.

 

At the same time, perfection and sterilization bother me. One can achieve purity and live a totally sober life, but what does that accomplish? It doesn't seem to engage the nitty-gritty of humanity.

 

Alcohol seems to directly engage the part of myself that knows creation is meant to be enjoyed and played with. Everyone I've encountered who is anti-alcohol is too serious, and to be too serious about life is to be mired in delusion, IMO.

 

I agree that 12 steps can be very useful. In fact, my mom is a veteran of CODA which is 12 steps for relationship addicts! Shit, this might be more useful for most people than AA!

 

But does that mean people shouldn't be in relationships? It seems AA might be useful for SOME people, but not all.

 

Vaj, I'm surprised you're admitting a potential alcohol problem, as your posts seem to indicate significant spiritual advancement (I'm being serious). However, when you have people like Chogyam Trungpa being alcoholics, I guess that shouldn't surprise me too much.

Edited December 7, 2010 by RyanO

[Vajrahridaya]

Vaj, I'm surprised you're admitting a potential alcohol problem, as your posts seem to indicate significant spiritual advancement (I'm being serious). However, when you have people like Chogyam Trungoa being alcoholics, I guess that shouldn't surprise me.

 

Chogyam Trungpa was a highly developed master and Bodhisattva, but still was an alcoholic. It didn't stop him from connecting to people during lucid dream states and revealing various super-natural powers of perception, and it didn't stop him from giving initiations into the Vajra path. But, non-the-less... he was an alcoholic which sometimes ended him up in situations that revealed that he was not a Buddha, just a very developed Buddhist.

 

I think Alcoholism is deeply hereditary and physically chemical... like an allergy.

 

I'm not nearly as developed as Chogyam Trungpa, and I am seeing that the choices I've made while being drunk are different from the choices I would make otherwise. Many times, these choices have gotten me into very interesting, and developing of my inner state type of situations. But, as of late, this is just not so, it seems that the time for that is over. The situations that are occurring as of late, are more and more destructive and not nearly as constructive as they used to be. It's also getting in the way of my practice, more and more. So... I think this is a very personal experience and everyone has their process.

 

I appreciate your insight though... as I do agree with the intent of what you are saying, very much so! But, I have to have my own process.

Edited December 7, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

Chogyam Trungpa was a highly developed master and Bodhisattva, but still was an alcoholic. It didn't stop him from connecting to people during lucid dream states and revealing various super-natural powers of perception, and it didn't stop him from giving initiations into the Vajra path. But, non-the-less... he was an alcoholic which sometimes ended him up in situations that revealed that he was not a Buddha, just a very developed Buddhist.

 

I think Alcoholism is deeply hereditary and physically chemical... like an allergy.

 

I'm not nearly as developed as Chogyam Trungpa, and I am seeing that the choices I've made while being drunk are different from the choices I would make otherwise. Many times, these choices have gotten me into very interesting, and developing of my inner state type of situations. But, as of late, this is just not so, it seems that the time for that is over. The situations that are occurring as of late, are more and more destructive and not nearly as constructive as they used to be. It's also getting in the way of my practice, more and more. So... I think this is a very personal experience and everyone has their process.

 

I appreciate your insight though... as I do agree with the intent of what you are saying, very much so! But, I have to have my own process.

 

 

Adult Children of Alcoholics is very good for support! Further, the "Hellinger Work" is an excellent tool to begin to understand family patterns and how one identifies with other members of the family and how one relates to those identities. I had my family constellation done several years ago and it was very revealing! A lot of beliefs and illusions began to fall away after that. Especially religious beliefs! I feel much freer!

 

What is important to realize is that anything can be an addiction. Especially what one holds the closest.

Edited December 7, 2010 by ralis

[King Kabalabhati]

Haha I thought this 12 steps was a form of Qigong

 

Reminded me of the Seven Steps of New Life in SFQ..

 

I have had my share of drinking and smoking weed but now my former abuse is gone down to a more "Tao-wise" level of a beer or two in the weekends and even more random marijuana smoking.. The old craving/addiction for these things is gone, probably due to liver blockages opening. So maybe I don't have the "addict gene" but I did have a liver problem for a long time, ever since my teens.

 

If there is any chance of substance use going out of hand it's a great idea to quit.

[3L3VAT3]

i thought i'd chip in because i go to NA meetings with regularity. I'm not really officially working the steps but i am slowly starting to come around to the whole program... The fact that i am on Methadone Maintenence is a tricky thing with regards to NA. I don't count clean days and only go over the 1st 3 steps until i'm successfully weened off (which is something i'm doing).

 

I used to HATE meetings and i would come up with a whole slew of reasons why it was all bullshit... but in the end i found it highly therapuetic.

 

I think what makes an addict and addict is the justifications that go through ones head; when we do this self-destructive behavior we have it all figured out so it really seems like a good idea... that's where the surrender thing comes in

And i'm starting to realize the higher power thing as well, or at least a higher power that is "loving and caring and could restore me to sanity"

[manitou]

Actually, there is no reason to go to meetings ad infinitum, despite what some say. I've been sober 30 years and went faithfully for the first 10 or so. I never used a sponsor - I didn't want to hand my will over to anyone else at the time (my arrogance was the overriding thing at the time) But the steps are absolute awesome if they're worked earnestly. If they're not done earnestly they're a waste of time. For someone who has turned their life around from total anger and hatred to a life of great peace and joy there is no convincing me that a 12 step program is anything other than miraculous. My old man was a skid row wino in L.A. and today is one of the most spiritually evolved people I know. He's been sober 20 years.

 

The way they dovetail with any of our paths is that the steps are a terrific clearing-house for the obstructions in our psychic chamber. Since a portion of time is spent searching out and writing about our own character defects, it starts the process of internal soul-searching that doesn't really come naturally for us on a daily basis, even if we're stellar people. It's not a brain thing. Most of us here are great thinkers. But working the steps is experiential, not cogitative. The 4th step (personal inventory) is PAINFUL. Relating your inventory to another human being is PAINFUL. It is humbling (not humiliating, humbling...) For many of us it is the first time we actually come face to face with ourselves and really realize that we've become fairly flawed as a result of our reactions to an imperfect world. We walk around with huge buttons on our chest, just waiting for somebody to push one, if we're using alcohol to mask the anger we walk around with.

The men are separated from the boys on the amends process. Locating and making amends (sometimes financial, sometimes verbal) is, again...PAINFUL; an experience that truly brings you to your knees. Just thinking about these things is not sufficient. It must be physically done. This is the beginning of a type of self-realization for the alcoholic that can't be read in books.

 

A higher power can be anything. If I were to describe mine, I guess it would be The Void. Or Love. I think they're interchangeable. Very best wishes to anyone contemplating checking those rooms out. I LOVE those rooms - where else can you see a sober skid road wino sharing his wisdom with a Fortune 500 CEO, and see the CEO in tears? You see everything in there.

 

Someone mentioned alcoholism as being an allergy. Very well put. Actually, the way they describe it in those rooms is 'an allergy of the body coupled with an obsession of the mind'. Pretty much says it.

 

I've always been of the belief that if one is on a spiritual path and runs into personal obstructions, the 12 step framework (in particular the inventory and amends steps) are a quick and powerful way to get that stuff out of your psyche. My experience with the program was wonderful. And the funny thing is that most, if not all, of those high-priced recovery places in Malibu and around the country all send their folks out the door with the caveat that they must protect their sobriety by attending 12 step meetings. Jeez, they might as well have just walked into a meeting in the beginning and saved their $20,000.00. That's what we all did before all these fancy places started springing up. But long live the cottage industry, I guess...

[三江源]

It's a platitude to say that alcoholics are looking for spirit, and think they've found it in a bottle... but it can be the case.

 

It's a way to be free from the usual ego constraints: to expand.

 

The alcoholism in my family is a recourse to a socially recognisable way of being not of usual reality, not within usual confines. It's a way of taking permission to be a true self in a culture which discourages that, but indulges a certain level of inebriation.

 

It's also part of my family's wider frame of reference: drinking a lot in Celtic culture is part of the Celtic self image as a people who like to go the edge and look over.

 

The alcoholics I have known/know personally are physically strong ones who keep a top up level of alcohol in their systems the whole day long, starting with brandy in the morning coffee and continuing in a steady stream all day, so that sobriety is never experienced at all.

 

I really can understand it. I've wondered if alcoholism was inevitably going to get me in the end, because of my family history, but actually I cant physically take alcohol much since I began energy work. It makes me ill.

 

I do think that factoring into one's life the need for ecstatic release and space for largesse makes the need for alcohol less pressing..

 

I dont believe genes dictate alcoholism, I believe a need for blurring of the usual boundaries dictates it, for whatever, many and varied, reasons. So if that is in your family energy field... accept your part in the pattern and find creative ways to do what is needed, to express what need to be expressed.

 

If alcohol was being used as a tool, what was it used for, on the deepest level, and what else could do the job?!

[Aaron]

Hello Manitou,

 

I was making the distinction between humiliation and humbling, i.e. if you're making a "moral inventory", as they call it in the big book, or making you're amends and you're feeling humiliated, then you need to stop and take a break, because that's not what it's supposed to do.

 

Anyways, I was thinking of writing a recovery book based on Tao. I tried to have it pertain to the 12 steps, but because of the heavily moralistic tone, I found that they weren't compatible.

 

Aaron

[ralis]

@ ralis - any chance you would want to expound on your hellinger work? sounds interesting.

 

@ vaj - sending you some love. sincere question: might you be addicted to your buddhist beliefs? (When you can't help but leave your mark in TTB threads, even after politely being asked to "leave the room," I wonder... )

 

When I get a chance, I will comment on the Hellinger Work. Religion can be an addiction!

[manitou]

Hello Manitou,

 

I was making the distinction between humiliation and humbling, i.e. if you're making a "moral inventory", as they call it in the big book, or making you're amends and you're feeling humiliated, then you need to stop and take a break, because that's not what it's supposed to do.

 

Anyways, I was thinking of writing a recovery book based on Tao. I tried to have it pertain to the 12 steps, but because of the heavily moralistic tone, I found that they weren't compatible.

 

Aaron

 

Hi Aaron - one thing for sure is that there is a bolt for every nut in the AA meetings - as you well know! I turned into an absolute religious nut job after first finding AA - I'd been out in the 'desert' for so long without any nourishment at all. I certainly framed everything in my mind around a jesus framework for a few years. Then the evolution went elsewhere - into yogi philosophy; and then on and on.

The steps as they're written aren't specific to any particular moral framework, even though in some places they refer to it as a moral inventory. In other places, they call it a personal inventory. That stuck in my craw a little bit at first too - but I did manage to get over it because I had to. The AA nomenclature can be a little outdated, due to the program was started in 1935 and much of the literature still has that corny sounding 1930's ring to it. But make no mistake, there is power in trying to dig out our character flaws so that our vision is clear. The way I look at it, the AA structure is one of the best and most expedient ways to do the inner work. It really doesn't take all that long, and then once the 'digging out' process has been put into motion, it remains in motion if you are earnest and sincere. (Let's hear a round of applause for Bill W. and Dr. Bob).

Edited December 7, 2010 by manitou

[Vajrahridaya]

It's a platitude to say that alcoholics are looking for spirit, and think they've found it in a bottle... but it can be the case.

 

It's a way to be free from the usual ego constraints: to expand.

 

The alcoholism in my family is a recourse to a socially recognisable way of being not of usual reality, not within usual confines. It's a way of taking permission to be a true self in a culture which discourages that, but indulges a certain level of inebriation.

 

It's also part of my family's wider frame of reference: drinking a lot in Celtic culture is part of the Celtic self image as a people who like to go the edge and look over.

 

The alcoholics I have known/know personally are physically strong ones who keep a top up level of alcohol in their systems the whole day long, starting with brandy in the morning coffee and continuing in a steady stream all day, so that sobriety is never experienced at all.

 

I really can understand it. I've wondered if alcoholism was inevitably going to get me in the end, because of my family history, but actually I cant physically take alcohol much since I began energy work. It makes me ill.

 

I do think that factoring into one's life the need for ecstatic release and space for largesse makes the need for alcohol less pressing..

 

I dont believe genes dictate alcoholism, I believe a need for blurring of the usual boundaries dictates it, for whatever, many and varied, reasons. So if that is in your family energy field... accept your part in the pattern and find creative ways to do what is needed, to express what need to be expressed.

 

If alcohol was being used as a tool, what was it used for, on the deepest level, and what else could do the job?!

 

Wow, that's insightful! Yes, I'm not convinced of the gene theory either, even if so, it's still my own creation as this life is the result of previous lives anyway. So, I'm not really trying to use that as an excuse. Mind over matter... Mind is matter!

 

Anyway... thanks for this insight Cat.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

@ vaj - sending you some love. sincere question: might you be addicted to your buddhist beliefs? (When you can't help but leave your mark in TTB threads, even after politely being asked to "leave the room," I wonder... )

 

Buddha insight is not a belief for me.

 

Thanks for the love though.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

I've always been of the belief that if one is on a spiritual path and runs into personal obstructions, the 12 step framework (in particular the inventory and amends steps) are a quick and powerful way to get that stuff out of your psyche.

 

Indeed. Hmmm...