Any 12-steppers in the room?

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

@ ralis - any chance you would want to expound on your hellinger work? sounds interesting.

 

@ vaj - sending you some love. sincere question: might you be addicted to your buddhist beliefs? (When you can't help but leave your mark in TTB threads, even after politely being asked to "leave the room," I wonder... )

I think the addiction is to compulsive force feeding proselytizing Buddhism, not the beliefs themselves. That's what we're all picking up on.

 

And yes, there does exist genetic variants in the expression of alcoholism, (but it does not explain all alcoholism). Some people actually process alcohol differently, and there is a genetic variant in which some opioid receptors come into play, so that the addictive experience and tendency is much stronger. There's no easy way to tell of you are affected, so if there is a family history, it is considered a strong risk factor for being alcoholic.

[ralis]

I think the addiction is to compulsive force feeding proselytizing Buddhism, not the beliefs themselves. That's what we're all picking up on.

 

 

 

Also the denial of any proselytizing. Now he has framed it as sharing.

[Vajrahridaya]

I think the addiction is to compulsive force feeding proselytizing Buddhism, not the beliefs themselves. That's what we're all picking up on.

 

More blind lunacy. Don't like it, don't read it, seriously. Get over yourselves.

No more excuses... stop trying to change me. I just spit what I know and if you don't like it's smell, then look the other way. No one is forcing anyone to read anything. Look and judge your own actions, not mine!!

 

It's you guys who ruin threads by responding and arguing... giving me more opportunities to clarify my point, which you don't like to begin with, so just let it go if you don't want me to clarify my point. Please don't make this thread about that too... SHIT!

 

Please don't respond to this... just read, listen and let it go. Or don't read, but let go for sure.

 

And yes, there does exist genetic variants in the expression of alcoholism, (but it does not explain all alcoholism). Some people actually process alcohol differently, and there is a genetic variant in which some opioid receptors come into play, so that the addictive experience and tendency is much stronger. There's no easy way to tell of you are affected, so if there is a family history, it is considered a strong risk factor for being alcoholic.

 

 

There is a strong opioid experience with me, very euphoric and a strong sense of spirituality that goes a long with that... for me. It's somewhat like being on heroin, I know because I've snorted it once, plus I've done Oxycontin, not in an abusive way... just did it a few times in my life.

 

I like being high! I used to get it more from my spiritual practice. I still do, as I have a strong tendency towards happiness. Eh, it's complicated, but I know there is a problem concerning alcohol as it's progressed into something unmanageable over the years.

 

There is a strong risk factor. But, I'm staying away from it... I just know I don't need it, I just want it. So, I'm just curbing that and drinking some soda instead with some heavy processed sugars to feed my liver what it's craving from the alcohol, and it's working... as a weening off it process.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Aaron]

@ ralis - any chance you would want to expound on your hellinger work? sounds interesting.

 

@ vaj - sending you some love. sincere question: might you be addicted to your buddhist beliefs? (When you can't help but leave your mark in TTB threads, even after politely being asked to "leave the room," I wonder... )

 

 

Hello Rainbow,

 

I would remind you that we are defined by those things that are opposite of what we are. The Hero is defined by the villian, the sinner the saint, and perhaps in this case, the Taoist by the Buddhist. I would say asking someone to leave because they're saying something you don't want to hear is kind of silly. So long as they oppose your ideas, then your ideas are real and valid. Be thankful they have come to talk about the other side of things, because it makes your side that much more vibrant and real.

 

Aaron

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

More blind lunacy. Don't like it, don't read it, seriously. Get over yourselves.

No more excuses... stop trying to change me. I just spit what I know and if you don't like it's smell, then look the other way. No one is forcing anyone to read anything. Look and judge your own actions, not mine!!

 

It's you guys who ruin threads by responding and arguing... giving me more opportunities to clarify my point, which you don't like to begin with, so just let it go if you don't want me to clarify my point. Please don't make this thread about that too... SHIT!

 

Please don't respond to this... just read, listen and let it go. Or don't read, but let go for sure.

 

 

 

 

There is a strong opioid experience with me, very euphoric and a strong sense of spirituality that goes a long with that... for me. It's somewhat like being on heroin, I know because I've snorted it once, plus I've done Oxycontin, not in an abusive way... just did it a few times in my life.

 

I like being high! I used to get it more from my spiritual practice. I still do, as I have a strong tendency towards happiness. Eh, it's complicated, but I know there is a problem concerning alcohol as it's progressed into something unmanageable over the years.

 

There is a strong risk factor. But, I'm staying away from it... I just know I don't need it, I just want it. So, I'm just curbing that and drinking some soda instead with some heavy processed sugars to feed my liver what it's craving from the alcohol, and it's working... as a weening off it process.

 

Yikes, man. Everyone likes being high. That's the problem, is not being able to control it. It's not that easy just to switch to "drinking some soda instead" if you actually have a problem with alcohol, and from everything you've written in this thread, clearly you do. If alcohol gives you an experience similar to opiates, you have your work cut out for you. No judgement, but addiction is not about willpower. It's good that you're admitting to a problem Vaj, but it's naive to think it's going to be easy. It's kind of odd that you're playing this out in this forum, but if it gets you to face the problem, whatever. A good start would be going to AA meetings.

Edited December 8, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[三江源]

 

 

 

I like being high! I used to get it more from my spiritual practice. I still do, as I have a strong tendency towards happiness.

 

Not everybody likes being high and a lot of people dont even know what it is really like to be high from practice and have absolutely no idea of how high an ecstatic can go. Having a strong tendency toward happiness gives us a smell of the territory, the knowledge there is more , higher states, more obliteration to be experienced, more ecstacy to be felt.

 

If you need to know the extent of your territory.... which is boundless... this is an issue to bring to consciousness, to fully own your personal freedom and your love of space.

 

Coversely there will be a need for containment. Seemingly paradoxically alcohol provided this containment, it is finite, and liquid consumable like mother, it is visible and attainable and measurable and satisfies the need to bring it all into the body: contained.

 

Expand then diminish, alcohol does both, fulfilling a creation destruction cycle neatly enough, creating an illusion of 'something happening'.. which satisfies the need for Event, in a transient way.

 

Considering the three basic requirements humans have for Structure, Recognition, and Incident.... it's worth looking at which needs arent being met, and which ones might be too dominant. ie too much structure makes people want a drink.. as does not enough recognition..

[Vajrahridaya]

It's good that you're admitting to a problem Vaj, but it's naive to think it's going to be easy. It's kind of odd that you're playing this out in this forum, but if it gets you to face the problem, whatever. A good start would be going to AA meetings.

 

Why not play it out in this forum. You guys are kind of like strangers that I can bounce things off of without much attachment.

 

Also, I've done this before, quit drinking that is, for years at a time. Making a drastic change in my life has not been so hard for me as it is for most people, because my life has been full of change already. I'm not from some place, I wasn't raised in one place, and I haven't done just a few things in my life. Most people I've met are from some place, grew up with some of the same people. Not everyone, but most. For them change is difficult and challenging.

 

It's not so much about will power as it is a decision based upon understanding the outcome of something. Drinking is just not taking me to where I want to go anymore. It was for a few years there in NYC. It was fun, exciting, interesting and I didn't have a problem with it before moving to NYC. But, now that I'm back in Florida, where I was 6 years ago when I didn't have a problem... it's not taking me to fun and exciting places... but quite the opposite, so what's the point?

 

There are going to be times where it's going to be a challenge, of course. But, the more I think of the outcome, the less challenging it becomes. Also, why should I think that it's a hard thing to do? Or easy for that matter? It's neither really. It's just a change.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[三江源]

 

Also, why should I think that it's a hard thing to do? Or easy for that matter? It's neither really. It's just a change.

 

brilliant.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

 

 

There are going to be times where it's going to be a challenge, of course. But, the more I think of the outcome, the less challenging it becomes. Also, why should I think that it's a hard thing to do? Or easy for that matter? It's neither really. It's just a change.

 

 

Good for you. I hope it works for you.

[Alfred E]

I was just wondering how many of us prior derelicts have made it into this forum? And if you're here, do you find that the 12 step process was instrumental in achieving any degree of clarity that you may possess at this time?

 

I've had a feeling that you know what I'm writing about and have waited to see if you were going to tell the story - but if you have, I've missed it - So - Here goes:

 

The founder of the 12 steps was a Taoist.

 

Here is the letter to Bill W. that began the program

http://www.barefootsworld.net/jungletter.html

 

The person that wrote the letter, Dr. Carl G. Jung, also wrote the foreword to the first translation of the Taoist book: The Secret of the Golden Flower and based his works on the above mentioned book as well as the I Ching - and also claimed his works were sourced from these 2 taoist books. read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_the_Golden_Flower

 

Essentialy - the 12 step program is a Taoist Organization.

[Vajrahridaya]

Good for you. I hope it works for you.

 

Me too, I'm not saying that I won't need to keep on my toes or practice lots of self forgiveness... :lol:

 

A good peer support group will be good too.

[Vajrahridaya]

I've had a feeling that you know what I'm writing about and have waited to see if you were going to tell the story - but if you have, I've missed it - So - Here goes:

 

The founder of the 12 steps was a Taoist.

 

Here is the letter to Bill W. that began the program

http://www.barefootsworld.net/jungletter.html

 

The person that wrote the letter, Dr. Carl G. Jung, also wrote the foreword to the first translation of the Taoist book: The Secret of the Golden Flower and based his works on the above mentioned book as well as the I Ching - and also claimed his works were sourced from these 2 taoist books. read about it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_of_the_Golden_Flower

 

Essentialy - the 12 step program is a Taoist Organization.

 

Wow! That's interesting...

[manitou]

Best wishes to anyone trying a weaning off process. I tried that for so long I just about became a chemist. One scotch, then one club soda....ad infinitum. If someone is merely a 'heavy drinker' and truly doesn't have the 'ism' (or compulsive) part of the disease, this would no doubt work. It would only work for me for about 3 or 4 days.

 

I think my first clue should have been when I started going through personality changes when I drank. If I was in a bar I never knew which personality would show up - the one who was combative and wanted to choose off everyone in the room - or the one who was a lover and would go home with someone's husband. I'd still be drinking today if life hadn't gotten so damn unpredictable. It was like living the Tao on steroids.

[Vajrahridaya]

Best wishes to anyone trying a weaning off process. I tried that for so long I just about became a chemist. One scotch, then one club soda....ad infinitum. If someone is merely a 'heavy drinker' and truly doesn't have the 'ism' (or compulsive) part of the disease, this would no doubt work. It would only work for me for about 3 or 4 days.

 

No... I meant wean me off the sugar. I'm not drinking alcohol cold turkey, but I'm drinking lots of soda instead, then I'm going to wean off that. I was referring to weaning off the sugar which is how alcohol is translated in the liver and where lots of the craving comes from.

 

 

It was like living the Tao on steroids.

 

HAHAHA!! So true. So smooth... right? So flow... but out of control, unpredictable... in self destructive ways. Like being at one with the Tao, but towards hell...

 

What I find is that it makes me comfortable in situations where I'd generally feel very uncomfortable about, and for reasons that are very good in the self preservation sense.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Alfred E]

Best wishes to anyone trying a weaning off process. I tried that for so long I just about became a chemist. One scotch, then one club soda....ad infinitum. If someone is merely a 'heavy drinker' and truly doesn't have the 'ism' (or compulsive) part of the disease, this would no doubt work. It would only work for me for about 3 or 4 days.

 

I think my first clue should have been when I started going through personality changes when I drank. If I was in a bar I never knew which personality would show up - the one who was combative and wanted to choose off everyone in the room - or the one who was a lover and would go home with someone's husband. I'd still be drinking today if life hadn't gotten so damn unpredictable. It was like living the Tao on steroids.

I worked 4 years in a hospital for addicts.

There is a cycle called the tollerance cycle.

Beginning there is high tolerance where the user doesn't get intoxicated easily.

At the end the user can take one drink and become falling down drunk.

This is when the liver quits.

[RyanO]

 

Expand then diminish, alcohol does both, fulfilling a creation destruction cycle neatly enough, creating an illusion of 'something happening'.. which satisfies the need for Event, in a transient way.

 

 

I like this. Cool insight, cat!

[RyanO]

Why not play it out in this forum. You guys are kind of like strangers that I can bounce things off of without much attachment.

 

Haha I like this approach. Funny things these forums are.

[manitou]

I worked 4 years in a hospital for addicts.

There is a cycle called the tollerance cycle.

Beginning there is high tolerance where the user doesn't get intoxicated easily.

At the end the user can take one drink and become falling down drunk.

This is when the liver quits.

 

This is just about the best example of why anyone decides to quit drinking who's an alkie. One day the tolerance is gone, and then it just doesn't work any more. We try a million different ways to go back to it 'working' - all the different liquor combinations and tricks that everyone's tried and failed -

Most often it takes an act of extreme humiliation to drive one over the brink of anything as extreme as 'actually quitting drinking'. In my case I threw up outside my boyfriend's car 30 years ago and the wind blew it back in all over him. That's what it took for me. It didn't take being arrested (by my own police agency), not receiving promotions, or losing a marriage and family. For some reason it just took that one ugly event, above described.

But some are truly more intelligent than others. My hat's off to anybody who doesn't have to ride the elevator to the bottom floor. We can get off on any floor. If anyone even wonders, please drag yourself to a couple meetings and see if there's anything there for you. At the very least, I guarantee you'll be surprised at what you hear. It's not what you think.

[Alfred E]

This is just about the best example of why anyone decides to quit drinking who's an alkie. One day the tolerance is gone, and then it just doesn't work any more. We try a million different ways to go back to it 'working' - all the different liquor combinations and tricks that everyone's tried and failed -

Most often it takes an act of extreme humiliation to drive one over the brink of anything as extreme as 'actually quitting drinking'. In my case I threw up outside my boyfriend's car 30 years ago and the wind blew it back in all over him. That's what it took for me. It didn't take being arrested (by my own police agency), not receiving promotions, or losing a marriage and family. For some reason it just took that one ugly event, above described.

But some are truly more intelligent than others. My hat's off to anybody who doesn't have to ride the elevator to the bottom floor. We can get off on any floor. If anyone even wonders, please drag yourself to a couple meetings and see if there's anything there for you. At the very least, I guarantee you'll be surprised at what you hear. It's not what you think.

 

I strongly agree !

 

During the 4 years that I worked in the hospital I was required to sit in on the meetings that were held in the hospital every night (I worked as a body guard/counsellor/etc...) and was totally surprised as to how much I was able to use in my personal life from the meetings.

 

The most astounding was the philosophy of 'bottoming out' that was required before true change could occur in addictive behaviour.

And the people that I met were not the skid row bums that people expect but rather from the most productive levels of society. Why - is equally interesting as it stemmed from the point that when an alcoholic drank they were obviously incapacitated - so to compete within the work force - an alcoholic was forced to become better at what they did than the people that didn't drink/use... This is to say that people often described as 'perfectionists' are the ones you will meet at the AA meetings.

 

And of course there were the stories of how they manipulated their environment to suit them through their 'keepers' (Their caretakers that allowed them to keep drinking/using) which is an education in itself.

 

In essence the nature of their 'keepers' is best described through the number of marriages of police to nurses.

The work of the police is to put themself in danger in order to protect the public. As a result the police are often disabled and need to be nursed back to health.

The nurse has an overactive mothering instinct and needs a mate that is like a baby.

The two needs (police need danger and nurse need baby) feed on each other to make an often childless marriage where the policeman is/becomes the child.

 

This psychological puzzle assembly, of keepers and addictive behaviour, fits together also with substance abuse addicts and nurses (not necessarily female but some men are of the nursing personality as well).

 

Even after I quit the hospital I still go to find a meeting simply to meet good peoples and hear their stories of how they defeated their problems - and - it is a really good place to find sober girls...

[manitou]

Yes, there are plenty of girls there. and girls who are earnestly trying to make a change in their lives. You're not 13th stepping the newcomers, are you, you devil?

 

Alfred, your mention of the police keepers and the nurses is very much mine and Joe's story. I was the cop, the one who needed someone to watch after. My husband (Joe) was the child - the skid row wino. When we met each other at an AA meeting, it was like two forces of nature rushing at each other. We have lived through many years of this dynamic, and seeing it change a little at a time, like moving an old rusty door. The interesting thing is that living with a low-bottom drunk (even a recovering one) has caused me to reach higher and higher in order to transcend horrible behavior. This was 27 years ago; we're actually still together. This has been a HARD path for us...but the dynamic between us is so strong (or sick, whichever) we've broken up many times and always returned. Now we're too damn old to worry about it and too many health problems coming down the road. We're just two happy little peas in a twisted pod...

[Alfred E]

Yes, there are plenty of girls there. and girls who are earnestly trying to make a change in their lives. You're not 13th stepping the newcomers, are you, you devil?

 

Alfred, your mention of the police keepers and the nurses is very much mine and Joe's story. I was the cop, the one who needed someone to watch after. My husband (Joe) was the child - the skid row wino. When we met each other at an AA meeting, it was like two forces of nature rushing at each other. We have lived through many years of this dynamic, and seeing it change a little at a time, like moving an old rusty door. The interesting thing is that living with a low-bottom drunk (even a recovering one) has caused me to reach higher and higher in order to transcend horrible behavior. This was 27 years ago; we're actually still together. This has been a HARD path for us...but the dynamic between us is so strong (or sick, whichever) we've broken up many times and always returned. Now we're too damn old to worry about it and too many health problems coming down the road. We're just two happy little peas in a twisted pod...

13th step - Naw... I'm an enabler of a strange sort - when I worked at the hospital they actually invented a new term for me - Psychiatric Nurse (male).

How I evolved::

I was born first of 47 cousins in the Appalachan mountains, where there is 1 bootlegger for every 100 people, and since I was born #1 I was given the job of babysitter of all 47 cousins. That transferred to the Hospital setting very easily.

 

What would do as an intro is to teach people to ignore the social norms: - Yeast is one of the lowest forms of life on earth - a bacteria - and since yeast eat the sugar - they must be deficating alcohol. So - the TV ads were all lies to get you hooked by selling Bacteria feces to people that believed the TV government ...

Need I say more ?

Wellll - maybe a little more.

It's better to die trying than to die of boredom.

Now - where was that cute little # 13 ?

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, there are plenty of girls there. and girls who are earnestly trying to make a change in their lives. You're not 13th stepping the newcomers, are you, you devil?

 

Alfred, your mention of the police keepers and the nurses is very much mine and Joe's story. I was the cop, the one who needed someone to watch after. My husband (Joe) was the child - the skid row wino. When we met each other at an AA meeting, it was like two forces of nature rushing at each other. We have lived through many years of this dynamic, and seeing it change a little at a time, like moving an old rusty door. The interesting thing is that living with a low-bottom drunk (even a recovering one) has caused me to reach higher and higher in order to transcend horrible behavior. This was 27 years ago; we're actually still together. This has been a HARD path for us...but the dynamic between us is so strong (or sick, whichever) we've broken up many times and always returned. Now we're too damn old to worry about it and too many health problems coming down the road. We're just two happy little peas in a twisted pod...

 

 

:lol:

 

You guys are courageous and I congratulate both of you!

[Vajrahridaya]

13th step - Naw... I'm an enabler of a strange sort - when I worked at the hospital they actually invented a new term for me - Psychiatric Nurse (male).

How I evolved::

I was born first of 47 cousins in the Appalachan mountains, where there is 1 bootlegger for every 100 people, and since I was born #1 I was given the job of babysitter of all 47 cousins. That transferred to the Hospital setting very easily.

 

Wow, that is interesting. Seriously.

 

What would do as an intro is to teach people to ignore the social norms: - Yeast is one of the lowest forms of life on earth - a bacteria - and since yeast eat the sugar - they must be deficating alcohol. So - the TV ads were all lies to get you hooked by selling Bacteria feces to people that believed the TV government ...

Need I say more ?

Wellll - maybe a little more.

It's better to die trying than to die of boredom.

Now - where was that cute little # 13 ?

 

I love it!

 

 

Ugh... alcohol just makes me feel like poo now, no more good feelings on it anymore. It's also boring at this point in my life. It doesn't support my real purpose at all anymore. It doesn't help me engage or transcend limitations for a time being anymore. It doesn't do any of the old fun and barrier breaking things for me anymore, so what's the point?

Edited December 9, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Alfred E]

Wow, that is interesting. Seriously.

I love it!

Ugh... alcohol just makes me feel like poo now, no more good feelings on it anymore. It's also boring at this point in my life. It doesn't support my real purpose at all anymore. It doesn't help me engage or transcend limitations for a time being anymore. It doesn't do any of the old fun and barrier breaking things for me anymore, so what's the point?

Interesting -although- you wouldn't last through the first case of D-T's let alone the taking down of one of the 50+ cases of suicide that I discovered hanging OR Od's for the family to take the gov't insurance.

Psych ward is more your style.

[Vajrahridaya]

Edited December 10, 2010 by Vajrahridaya