Taoist's view on Reincarnation

[surfingbudda]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my interpretation of the Buddhist concept of Reincarnation. Beings develop karma through good or bad deeds and depending on the balance between good and bad karma determines which level one is born into. A bad human may be reborn as a rat or slug, while a good dog may be reborn as a human, just an example. And there are different planes of existence in which one can go to for example, the hell realms, hungry ghost realm, earthly realm, god realm. Once one reaches the status of Human being with free will, then they can bypass this system of birth and rebirth through the act of non-attachment and ridding ones self of karmic influences, when one is entirely pure, they have reached the status of buddha and have attained nirvana therefore escaping samsara. This is my understanding of it. My question is, do Taoists believe in the same process? Would attaining oneness with the Tao, be the Taoist version of becoming pure and attaining Nirvana or whatever you want to call it? What is everyone's personal take on Reincarnation?

Edited December 8, 2010 by surfingbudda

[Marblehead]

I do not hold to the concept of reincarnation in any form as presented by the Buddhist community.

 

I do believe in the concept of reversion and cycles. (From dust to dust, if you will.)

 

We get only one shot at it. Do the best you can while you are here.

[island]

The Hindu and Buddhist concepts of reincarnation and Karma are too complex for me to understand, my innate feeling is in concurrence with marblehead..only one shot! Embrace it with both arms and live it to your fullest potential.

[King Kabalabhati]

The Hindu and Buddhist concepts of reincarnation and Karma are too complex for me to understand, my innate feeling is in concurrence with marblehead..only one shot! Embrace it with both arms and live it to your fullest potential.

 

It doesn't matter at all which one of these truths you believe in. They all encourage an individual to do their best in this life. Anyway, the space of our consciousness is already connected to the universal space. So if you think your consciousness will die, you haven't realised yourself as space. This means what you thought you were will die.

 

Karma does exist, I can see it working, and I prefer to see it as part of my creation. This means I can work with it. Life seems to me both empty and useless, beautiful and inspiring at the same time.

[Sloppy Zhang]

There's a thread on it here.

 

I'll re-post the segment from Frantzis' book, for those that don't have it and want to take a look, it's from "The Great Stillness" (also keep in mind. B.K. Frantzis is speaking from his specific lineage of Taoism, so it may differ even from other taoist views you may find):

 

In their philosophy, the Taoists prefer to focus on life here and now. Neither in the I Ching, the Tao Te Ching of Lao Tse, nor in Chuang Tsu's works is there a strong focus on reincarnation. The Taoist view is that the energy of life is at death mulched in the energy of the Tao and spun out again as another new living manifestation. Chuang Tsu, for example, says: "How marvelous the Creator (the Tao) is! What is he going to make of you next? Where is he going to send you? Will he make you into a rat's liver? Will he make you into a bug's arm?" (Chuang Tsu, Basic Writings, trans. Burton Watson (New York: Columbia University Press, 1964), p 81)

 

Many Taoists believe that the vast majority of human beings do not have the capacity to reincarnate intact. They believe that when a soul dies, its consciousness breaks up and later combines with parts of other fragmented souls, thereby reincarnating as a mosaic soul. This idea is also represented in other traditions, especially shamanic ones, where it is held that a human's body can be composed from different past lives of various entities. Thus, some Taoists believe that the human desire to become integrated is based on a literal need.

 

The primary spiritual purpose of the preparatory and intermediate chi practices of Taoist meditation for achieving spiritual maturity involves gathering all the energies of an individual into one integrated, whole energy or consciousness. This unified energy/consciousness creates a "ling", the Chinese word for "soul". A unified ling can reincarnate intact; a fragmented or nonintegrated human consciousness cannot.

 

Since many Taoists believe that most people will not come back as a unified being, they consider talking about reincarnation to be a waste of time. They do, though, discuss karma, which they often characterize as the Law of Return. In this concept, the energy you put out eventually comes back to you in some form, though it is not certain when or how that will happen. Responsibility for the deeds you do and the psychic energy you put out is critical to the Taoist philosophy of how life and justice works.

 

The life-affirming Taoists seek a primal route to experiencing nature of the nontemporal "soul" by training the body to be fully conscious and aware. By placing attention on the living human body and on Consciousness (which they deem to be immortal) (my note-this isn't your "mental consciousness", but the part of "universal consciousness" that you are connected to at all times, and which you cultivate an awareness of during meditation), Taoists hold that focusing on this present life is as equally important as giving credence to the concept of an afterlife.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Alfred E]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but this is my interpretation of the Buddhist concept of Reincarnation. Beings develop karma through good or bad deeds and depending on the balance between good and bad karma determines which level one is born into. A bad human may be reborn as a rat or slug, while a good dog may be reborn as a human, just an example. And there are different planes of existence in which one can go to for example, the hell realms, hungry ghost realm, earthly realm, god realm. Once one reaches the status of Human being with free will, then they can bypass this system of birth and rebirth through the act of non-attachment and ridding ones self of karmic influences, when one is entirely pure, they have reached the status of buddha and have attained nirvana therefore escaping samsara. This is my understanding of it. My question is, do Taoists believe in the same process? Would attaining oneness with the Tao, be the Taoist version of becoming pure and attaining Nirvana or whatever you want to call it? What is everyone's personal take on Reincarnation?

Reincarnation is Evolution.

Karma is: Every action has an equal and opposite reaction AKA Newton's Third Law of Motion: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion

[Vajrahridaya]

Buddhist concepts of reincarnation and Karma are too complex for me.

 

Which is why I'm Buddhist, as it explains the complexity of my experience, both on and off the cushion.

 

But yeah... I get it. Be here now, but this now is connected to all nows' past and present and is in that sense always the center of all events. So I think getting into the metaphysics as in the subtle causes and conditions around the constant now that is all nows' is getting deeper into the now.

 

I think to be aware of how this now came into being on a personal level and where it's going on a general level, though specifics of the future will always be a mystery to one degree or another due to how complex all this is, is to be more clearly in the now as in you have a clearer understanding of cause and result.

 

At first it's a process of thinking, but then it becomes a process of understanding and directly knowing what intuition is. As in, it's deepened and comes from a wider view.

Edited December 8, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[island]

It doesn't matter at all which one of these truths you believe in.

for me it's not a matter of belief, it's about knowing, and i just don't know! and to be perfectly honest i know very little, if anything at all:) Edited December 8, 2010 by island

[King Kabalabhati]

for me it's not a matter of belief, it's about knowing, and i just don't know! and to be perfectly honest i know very little.

 

OK you're well equipped to learn then

 

I combine teachings that resonate with my personal experience, thus creating my own reality. I as a personal being will never be able to check if it was correct or not

[Vajrahridaya]

OK you're well equipped to learn then

 

I combine teachings that resonate with my personal experience, thus creating my own reality. I as a personal being will never be able to check if it was correct or not

 

That's why it's good to read from past or current masters. Lineage is important in the sense of authentic teachings that bare authenticated results.

 

Even great masters don't stop studying other masters. The process of learning never ends! In the relative sense that is. Buddhahood is said to be the state beyond learning, but that's just referencing emptiness, the state of reference of liberation from learning, learner and learned. But practically speaking, everything is going to keep flowing regardless of ones enlightenment or not, and learning and unlearning is part of this constant process.

[Marblehead]

Even great masters don't stop studying ...

 

Hi Vaj,

 

I was looking for something I could disagree with you about but found nothing. Darn!!!

[surfingbudda]

BKF said, "Many Taoists believe that the vast majority of human beings do not have the capacity to reincarnate intact. They believe that when a soul dies, its consciousness breaks up and later combines with parts of other fragmented souls, thereby reincarnating as a mosaic soul. This idea is also represented in other traditions, especially shamanic ones, where it is held that a human's body can be composed from different past lives of various entities. Thus, some Taoists believe that the human desire to become integrated is based on a literal need."

 

I just find this hard to believe. So according to BKF my being is made up of countless other beings all messed together, if so then howcome I have one true self and not many, wouldn't I be hearing voices or find other parts of my body with a will of their own? If I were made up of many souls, then how come my conscience came out on top and ended up controlling everything, or is it just my soul was lucky enough to become the brain . Also if this were true, how would one explain people remembering past lives, I've heard of people remembering, "Oh ya I found out at past life regression that I was this guys foot last life time". This is assuming past life regression works, but there are cases where people seemingly remember everything about their previous lifes, even the Buddha talked about his 500ish lifetimes that he relived and they are written down in the Jataka tales supposedly. I think I read this happening also in the book, Mysteries of the Life Force, by Peter Meech, he said while doing qigong his past lives began flashing before his eyes.

[thelerner]

BKF said, "Many Taoists believe that the vast majority of human beings do not have the capacity to reincarnate intact. They believe that when a soul dies, its consciousness breaks up and later combines with parts of other fragmented souls, thereby reincarnating as a mosaic soul. This idea is also represented in other traditions, especially shamanic ones, where it is held that a human's body can be composed from different past lives of various entities. Thus, some Taoists believe that the human desire to become integrated is based on a literal need."

 

I just find this hard to believe. So according to BKF my being is made up of countless other beings all messed together, if so then howcome I have one true self and not many, wouldn't I be hearing voices or find other parts of my body with a will of their own?

 

Its not the most pleasant concept of an afterlife, but its shared by a number of Taoists Traditions, not just BKF. (In a history as diverse as Taoism undoubtedly there are a couple other competing theories) The thinking is some people remember past lives because they have a fragment soul that lived it.

 

It also explains human confusion based on the many voices going on at one time due to the number of souls.

 

Michael

[surfingbudda]

Heres an article I found that was interesting, heres the website I found it at My link

 

The Taoist view of life and death is beautifully described in the book Taoism: The Road to Immortality by John Blofeld. The passage from the book below really has helped me to begin to understand the Taoist views on death, views so different from the typical Western perspective. Because this is difficult for me to do justice to by summarizing, I chose to include a long quotation from the book below:

 

“…it is possible to understand what is really involved in cultivation of the Way. Man’s true nature (Mind as it is called in Ch’an (Zen) terminology) is not the personal possession of the individual; rather, individual existence is the prime illusion to be discarded. Belonging to none, the Tao is present in all. Therefore, as Mahayana Buddists are also fond of pointing out, the only difference in this present life between realised immortals and ordinary men is that the former are aware of their underlying identity with the Tao, whereas the latter have not experienced that identity. Cultivation, then, is a matter of unveiling, peeling off successive layers of delusion, each more subtle than the one before. It is a process of liberation. When the final delusion of personal separateness has been cast off, only the physical body (soon to be discarded) remains to be mistaken by the spiritually blind for a personal possession. By then, death has no meaning, except as a welcome release from bondage to an ageing carcass. The adept’s real nature—-the nature of all being—cannot possibly be diminished by the loss of an identity that has had no reality from the first. When clouds obscure the sun, its orb is not diminished; when they are blown away, its brightness is not augmented; the sun is always as it is, whether visible to the eye or not. Thus nothing starts with birth or ends with death; the real is there all the time. However, to understand this intellectually is not enough; it must become a direct perception. To this end, the would-be immortal (goal-winner) follows a regime set forth very simply some two thousand years ago in a work of the Han dynasty:

 

‘Taking good care of his human body, perfecting within himself his endowment of the Real, cleansing will and thought, not straying into the paths of ordinary mortals, his mind and senses utterly serene, impervious to the effects of every sort of ill, welcoming life and death as parts of a seamless unity and therefore not clinging to the one or anxious about the other, free from every kind of anxiety and fear, roaming the world imperturbably at ease, he attains the Way.’

 

“How marvelous to wander through the world ‘imperturbably at ease,’ no matter where one goes or what circumstances arise! No wonder the poems of the mountain-dwelling recluses are full of joy! With this philosophy they were able to welcome life’s lovely scents and colours as gifts to be enjoyed from moment to moment, never regretting their transience or their passing, with never a twinge of anxiety or fear. Where even the prospect of sudden, imminent death has no power to disturb, much less appall, one’s feeling of security is as absolute as that of a child in its mother’s arms!”

 

–John Blofeld, Taoism: The Road to Immortality, 1985, pp. 161-162

 

To relax, to ease up on the excessive striving and anxieties, to “try on” the mindset of “roaming the world imperturbably at ease,” to perceive the Tao inside of oneself and in others, to let go of the fear of death…these are steps towards attaining the Way.

Edited December 8, 2010 by surfingbudda

[3bob]

The following link is not from a Taoist source but some may find it informative or of use:

 

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/brdup/brhad_IV-04.html

 

Om

[surfingbudda]

to me this take on death doesn't appear too different than the Buddhist one. To me, the underlining message of Taoism really touches my heart, however some of the more religious details such as worship of Deities and such I just don't pay attention to. Apparently Lao Tzu didn't either

"I do not concern myself with gods and spirits either good or evil nor do I serve any."

-Lao Tzu

Its interesting that one of the greatest figures of Taoism doesn't take any concern towards the religious aspects of it.

This would simply be my take of the Taoist view: everyone is part of the Tao, upon death we return to the source and then are reborn in a cycle of life and death, until one fully realizes and becomes one with the Tao in the sense from the article above where one burns away different layers of self until one finally realizes there is no self, just Tao

Edited December 8, 2010 by surfingbudda

[Marblehead]

It also explains human confusion based on the many voices going on at one time due to the number of souls.

 

Michael

 

That is normally called schizophrenia.

[3bob]

to me this take on death doesn't appear too different than the Buddhist one. To me, the underlining message of Taoism really touches my heart, however some of the more religious details such as worship of Deities and such I just don't pay attention to. Apparently Lao Tzu didn't either

"I do not concern myself with gods and spirits either good or evil nor do I serve any."

-Lao Tzu

Its interesting that one of the greatest figures of Taoism doesn't take any concern towards the religious aspects of it.

This would simply be my take of the Taoist view: everyone is part of the Tao, upon death we return to the source and then are reborn in a cycle of life and death, until one fully realizes and becomes one with the Tao in the sense from the article above where one burns away different layers of self until one finally realizes there is no self, just Tao

 

Concepts are of some value but I suggest the with-holding of any hard and fast summations based upon same.

 

Also - elder gods, and various spirits can be fairly easily verified at certain levels, (easier imo than reincarnation) and if it was not for their mostly unseen and unknown activities in various realms then the form of mankind who often takes a stance of overwhelming arrogance of independence would not be around to discount them! A Sage works to some degree with god beings if he or she is working in their various realms, granted that does not mean Sages or enlightened ones are slaves to same but where dharmic respect is due it is given, including that given in forms of Buddhism.

 

Om

[surfingbudda]

I do believe in the existence of higher beings of light and stuff, I guess I just don't believe one must submit to them as seen in other religions such as Hinduism. Also, I think human beings are the most powerful beings in the universe, we are God, just most people don't realize it. I like the Taoist idea that the human body is a model of the universe

[manitou]

I would suspect that there is a form of reincarnation because of the continual elevation of our collective consciousness. I'm of the impression (please correct me if I'm wrong) that a baby born into these times has a different set of software than one born a thousand years ago. Is this not a type of reincarnation? I dabble in genealogy and I really suspect that any reincarnation that takes place would take place along DNA lines - only because this would be the most logical way for the spirits that Be to arrange it. I don't know so much about people who think they remember they were Cleo in a past life, tho...

[Aaron]

My opinion,

 

you wont know for sure until you die... hmm... well apparently you wont even know after you die, so there's no way of knowing, so why worry about it? The hypothetical is the most troublesome invention of mankind.

 

Aaron

[Sloppy Zhang]

My opinion,

 

you wont know for sure until you die... hmm... well apparently you wont even know after you die, so there's no way of knowing, so why worry about it? The hypothetical is the most troublesome invention of mankind.

 

Aaron

 

I've heard it said that high level spiritual cultivators can keep their consciousness during the reincarnation process, and at the very least, can control their next incarnation, or at the very least arrange it so that in their next lives they can easily find "the path" again so they can resume where they left off. As they get better at this (assuming they don't achieve enlightenment in the next life), they can control their incarnation so their next incarnation easily recovers memories, then incarnate so there is no loss at all, and then hopefully enlightenment, so the work can continue across lifetimes.

[surfingbudda]

My opinion,

 

you wont know for sure until you die... hmm... well apparently you wont even know after you die, so there's no way of knowing, so why worry about it? The hypothetical is the most troublesome invention of mankind.

 

Aaron

 

I agree, all we can really do is live every moment to its fullest and just enjoy life for the beautiful thing that it is