[TTC Study] Chapter 7 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Ok, analyse this 天人合一.

 

It reads, "You fucked up." But that is only your misunderstanding.

 

Ok, I will have to square off with you and a side headlock take down should take the wind out of your sails. Dawei will then stuff the rat in.

 

Hehehe. I'm too old to be doing that kind of stuff. There are other ways. - Just like there are different paths to the same destination.

[Marblehead]

I prefer dog... all parts...

Actually, I have eaten it only once to the best of my knowledge. It was in Korea and I wasn't told it was dog until after I finished it. I rather thought that it tasted a little like rat but that might have been because the dog had been a ratter before it was my supper.

[sree]

I prefer dog... all parts... and in my alcoholic brew which seeps in a jug at home it includes, 狗鞭. I am not buy or selling this... but people are welcome to taste it. This is becoming one with the dog in us... next step is 天人合一

 

Next step will be good. Before that, we should become one with Marblehead...all parts including 人鞭... in Korean ginseng wine in a jug. I will come and taste it. Where is your home? Hangzhou?

[manitou]

I could be dead wrong here, but it does seem to me that what I have read of Confucius doesn't seem to get into the mindset of wu-wei; it does seem to be more behavior-oriented. One of the focuses of the TTC is 'between ugh and aah, how much difference is there?', which says to me that everything is seen in relation to everything else. There is no good or bad - if you ask a soccer mom what she considers evil, she'll say the dope dealer standing on the corner. If you ask the dope dealer what is evil, he'll answer 'the son of a bitch who ripped me off last night'. Is there a right or wrong? It's all just relative to something else. Perhaps I haven't read enough of Confucius to see the wu-wei in it yet. (I am perusing the Confucius thread and commenting, although nobody else seems to be interested - there is some great stuff in there).

 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I haven't noticed Confucius talking about Not-Doing yet. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I haven't noticed Confucius talking about Not-Doing yet. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

 

See my note about "The Great Learning" in the "Confucian texts" thread. The original is available by google searches.

 

I would say that egoless action, as described in DDJ Ch.7 is to "accomplish without meddling" and this is quite prevalent in The Analects.

[ChiDragon]

I could be dead wrong here, but it does seem to me that what I have read of Confucius doesn't seem to get into the mindset of wu-wei; it does seem to be more behavior-oriented. One of the focuses of the TTC is 'between ugh and aah, how much difference is there?', which says to me that everything is seen in relation to everything else. There is no good or bad - if you ask a soccer mom what she considers evil, she'll say the dope dealer standing on the corner. If you ask the dope dealer what is evil, he'll answer 'the son of a bitch who ripped me off last night'. Is there a right or wrong? It's all just relative to something else. Perhaps I haven't read enough of Confucius to see the wu-wei in it yet. (I am perusing the Confucius thread and commenting, although nobody else seems to be interested - there is some great stuff in there).

 

I guess what I'm trying to say, is that I haven't noticed Confucius talking about Not-Doing yet. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

 

You are 100% correct. There is no Wu Wei in Confucian philosophy. As a matter of fact, the things they do in Confucian philosophy is the exact opposite of Wu Wei.

Edited December 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[sree]

You are 100% correct. There is no Wu Wei in Confucian philosophy. As a matter of fact, the things they do in Confucian philosophy is the exact opposite of Wu Wei.

 

Confucius taught the virtues of humility and filial piety: putting others before self.

Don't you consider Line 5 of Chapter 7 relevant to self-cultivation in this regard?

 

Your translation:

5. 是以聖人後其身而身先，

5. A gentleman always place himself behind but ended up in front.

Edited December 28, 2012 by sree

[Marblehead]

Hi Sree,

 

Just want to let you know that I appreciate you being here and having your discussions with the Dragon. Even though I will disagree with you whenever I feel it is appropriate I do gain insight from a lot of what you post.

 

Oh!, and BTW, for my own personal use I have translated the third treasure to "Humility".

Edited December 28, 2012 by Marblehead

[ChiDragon]

Mr. sree...

There is a difference in the word "gentleman" here between Taoist and Confucian. In Taoism, for being a gentleman was not displayed like the Confucians do. The action done by a Taoist gentleman was behind the scene. In the contrary, a Confucian gentleman has to go through a ritual to show that he is a gentleman by bowing to greet someone and said nice words. They have a tendency of showing superiority with their scholastic arrogance.

[Marblehead]

They have a tendency of showing superiority with their scholastic arrogance.

That is the biggest reason I stopped reading Confucius many years ago. It all felt so phoney to me. Outward expression only, never working on the purification of the Self.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Compare this to the last 2 paragraphs of Doctrine of the Mean, written by Confucius grandson, Mencius' teacher:

 

It is said in the Book of Poetry, "In silence is the offering

presented, and the spirit approached to; there is not the slightest

contention." Therefore the superior man does not use rewards, and

the people are stimulated to virtue. He does not show anger, and the

people are awed more than by hatchets and battle-axes.

It is said in the Book of Poetry, "What needs no display is

virtue. All the princes imitate it." Therefore, the superior man being

sincere and reverential, the whole world is conducted to a state of

happy tranquility.

It is said in the Book of Poetry, "I regard with pleasure your

brilliant virtue, making no great display of itself in sounds and

appearances." The Master said, "Among the appliances to transform

the people, sound and appearances are but trivial influences. It is

said in another ode, 'His Virtue is light as a hair.' Still, a hair

will admit of comparison as to its size. 'The doings of the supreme

Heaven have neither sound nor smell. 'That is perfect virtue."

[sree]

In the contrary, a Confucian gentleman has to go through a ritual to show that he is a gentleman by bowing to greet someone and said nice words. They have a tendency of showing superiority with their scholastic arrogance.

 

Is it fair to judge Confucius' teaching by the conduct of the Confucian intellectual? Harmonious Emptiness has posted above examples of what Confucius taught. Any comment?

[Marblehead]

Compare ...

That sounded so Laoist!

[ChiDragon]

The post of ME was very promising and sounds good. However, Confucians contribute their virtue were with lots of intentions right up front. Confucius had taught a lot more things which need to be evaluated to see the whole picture. I agree with Mr. MH's comments in post #85 about outward expression.

Edited December 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

If it wasn't for the inclination towards prideful show-offyness, Confucius probably would have just kept eating his soup... (edit: meaning to say, that that his lessons would have been unnecessary) The inclination is so strong that people actually managed to use his teachings as one more resource to further their personal desires for fame and status. This happens with most teachings intended to cultivate virtues. They end up just further cultivating ego once somebody figures out how do so.

 

This is why Lao Tzu said "Don't praise Sageliness, and the people won't trade simple sincerity for its lofty status."

Edited December 28, 2012 by Harmonious Emptiness

[sree]

The post of ME was very promising and sounds good. However, Confucians contribute their virtue were with lots of intentions right up front. Confucius had taught a lot more things which need to be evaluated to see the whole picture. I agree with Mr. MH's comments in post #85 about outward expression.

 

It is only fair to compare Confucianists with Taoists. One is a hypocrite while the other is an iron-crotch sex maniac.

 

Please, Mr Chi, give Confucius a fair trial. His philosophy of patience, a central Chinese virtue, has enabled the Chinese to survive through unimaginable hardships for thousands of years. No other great civilization is still standing like China today poised to advance further.

[ChiDragon]

It is only fair to compare Confucianists with Taoists. One is a hypocrite while the other is an iron-crotch sex maniac.

 

Please, Mr Chi, give Confucius a fair trial. His philosophy of patience, a central Chinese virtue, has enabled the Chinese to survive through unimaginable hardships for thousands of years. No other great civilization is still standing like China today poised to advance further.

 

LOL....

 

Yes, I do agree that the Yin-Yang effect of Confucians and Taoists did hold the Chinese culture together. However, the hardship of mental sacrifices had caused many.

Edited December 28, 2012 by ChiDragon

[manitou]

You are 100% correct. There is no Wu Wei in Confucian philosophy. As a matter of fact, the things they do in Confucian philosophy is the exact opposite of Wu Wei.

 

 

Where's the fun in that? The wu-wei is the pony at the bottom.

[ChiDragon]

Where's the fun in that? The wu-wei is the pony at the bottom.

 

There is no fun in that at all......

[sree]

LOL....

 

Yes, I do agree that the Yin-Yang effect of Confucians and Taoists did hold the Chinese culture together. However, the hardship of mental sacrifices had caused many.

 

I don't think it was the Confucianists and the Taoists who held China together. Don't forget that both Japan and Korea, not to forget Vietnam too, have also endured on account of Chinese philosophy. It wasn't the conscious act of practioners but the unconscious influence on society that Chinese philosophical thought had that protected the Chinese culture from atrophy and disintegration inspite of the harmful injection of western philosophy:Marxist communism.

[ChiDragon]

Okay. Fair enough. Thank you for your thoughts. Let's not get into that, here, in the Tao Te Ching section.

[sree]

Okay. Fair enough. Thank you for your thoughts. Let's not get into that, here, in the Tao Te Ching section.

 

Mr Chi, is it not appropriate to discuss it here? Philosophical thought and application go hand-in-hand. How are we to study the Tao Te Ching if we exclude evaluation of its action in everyday life? Scholars were assessed on their mastery of the Chinese Classics in the Imperial Exams in terms of their skill in applying principles to statecraft.

 

Philosophy that has no practical application is like a tree that bears no fruit. Perhaps, 死書 (dead learning) is the reason why China, once a center of world economic power a mere few hundred years ago, went to sleep. Mao Zedong had contempt for such useless scholars. He burned their silly books and marched them all off to the farms to do hard labor in the Cultural Revolution.

[sree]

On second thought, perhaps you are right based on the rules of this forum restricting discussion on texts only.