[TTC Study] Chapter 7 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

I know what you mean, I don't like "selflessness" there either. I haven't come up with a better (less potentially misleading) way of expressing it yet but I will.

 

Hehehe. It normally takes me two fully packed paragraphs to explain what I am talking about in this regard. I hope you find that special word that says it all. I would probably use it and save myself all that typing.

[rene]

Maybe part of the trouble is that the word conveys something that does not exist.

 

The words (and concepts) of selfless and selflessness are rooted in either/or thinking. Either "self" or "self-less".

 

How about instead of "self/selfless" the idea of "not only self" is used. You know, both.

 

The earlier lines call for both. I bet you guys can come up with a word.

[cheya]

 

 

?? Sheathing the internal body

 

?????Heaven is long lasting Earth is long enduring.

??????????

Heaven and Earth are capable of being long lasting and ever long enduring

??????becase they do not live OF THEIR OWN ACCORD

?????Therefore they are capable of long life

???? That is why the saints have

???????a former body but also a latter body;

???????a non-body but also a sheath body

???????without it how would their Non-Being embody?

??????Its because of the above they are capable of perfecting their embodiment.

 

Hi TianShi,

This is such a JUICY translation! Thank you!

To me, your translation has much in common with Waysun Liao (Nine Nights with the Taoist Master), whose barebones translation of Ch. 7 & goes like this (p 285 of the Appendix):

 

The Universe is everlasting.

Why does the Universe last forever? Because it does not bear itself,

therefore, it is ever-existing.

Therefore, the saint stays behind his body as if his body goes ahead of himself. And since he stays out of his body, his body lasts longer.

It is because he is rid of his consciousness of self that he gains his true self.

 

In the main text, which Liao presents as a teaching novel, Laotzu's words are embedded in the story (p 65). Below, Laotzu is explaining chapter 7 to the prince who questions him:

 

"Because the power of Tao prevails, (7-1) the Universe is everlasting.

Why does the Universe last forever? Because it does not bear itself, therefore, it is ever existing.

Therefore, the saint stays behind his body and allows the power of Tao to enter his body first; it's as if his body goes ahead of himself. And since he stays out of his body, allowing Tao's power to run his body, his body lasts longer. It is because he is rid of his consciousness of self that he gains his true self. Therefore he lives, by the power of Tao, a much longer life."

 

Then [the prince] asked, "Master, you seem to say that I must turn even my body over to this power of Tao. But if I ever learn to practice so that the power of Tao enters my body, how then will my body function in daily life?....."

 

[Laotzu replies] "Just practice until the power of Tao enters your body, then let the power of Tao run the whole mission for you. Don't worry; it will take care of everything in the best way. See, (8-1) the highest good, the power of Tao at work, is just like water..." [here the text moves on into chapter 8.]

[majc]

The infinite skies, and our ancient ground...

How are they so longstanding?

 

They don't exist just by themselves.

That's how their growth can be sustained.

 

Thus...

The Master leaves himself behind,

and his person comes forth.

Forgets himself,

and his nature unfolds.

 

Is it not when self is lost that he's fulfilled?

Edited December 11, 2010 by majc

[rene]

The infinite skies, and our ancient ground...

How are they so longstanding?

 

They don't exist just by themselves,

and that's how their growth is sustained.

 

Thus...

The Master leaves himself behind,

and his person comes forth.

Forgets himself,

and his nature unfolds.

 

Is it not this loss of self

by which he's filled?

 

 

The infinite skies, and our ancient ground...

How are they so longstanding?

 

They don't exist just by themselves, .... (which means, they don't exist only by themselves)

and that's how their growth is sustained.

 

Thus...

The Master leaves himself behind,

and his person comes forth.

Forgets himself,

and his nature unfolds.

 

Is it not this loss of only self ... or maybe Is it not this loss of just self for consistancy w/line above

by which he's filled?

 

how do you like the way i take liberties with your words!

[rene]

Hi TianShi,

This is such a JUICY translation! Thank you!

To me, your translation has much in common with Waysun Liao (Nine Nights with the Taoist Master), whose barebones translation of Ch. 7 & goes like this (p 285 of the Appendix):

 

The Universe is everlasting.

Why does the Universe last forever? Because it does not bear itself,

therefore, it is ever-existing.

Therefore, the saint stays behind his body as if his body goes ahead of himself. And since he stays out of his body, his body lasts longer.

It is because he is rid of his consciousness of self that he gains his true self.

 

In the main text, which Liao presents as a teaching novel, Laotzu's words are embedded in the story (p 65). Below, Laotzu is explaining chapter 7 to the prince who questions him:

 

"Because the power of Tao prevails, (7-1) the Universe is everlasting.

Why does the Universe last forever? Because it does not bear itself, therefore, it is ever existing.

Therefore, the saint stays behind his body and allows the power of Tao to enter his body first; it's as if his body goes ahead of himself. And since he stays out of his body, allowing Tao's power to run his body, his body lasts longer. It is because he is rid of his consciousness of self that he gains his true self. Therefore he lives, by the power of Tao, a much longer life."

 

Then [the prince] asked, "Master, you seem to say that I must turn even my body over to this power of Tao. But if I ever learn to practice so that the power of Tao enters my body, how then will my body function in daily life?....."

 

[Laotzu replies] "Just practice until the power of Tao enters your body, then let the power of Tao run the whole mission for you. Don't worry; it will take care of everything in the best way. See, (8-1) the highest good, the power of Tao at work, is just like water..." [here the text moves on into chapter 8.]

 

Cheya - thanks for posting that, glad you're jumping in!

 

This:

[Laotzu replies] "Just practice until the power of Tao enters your body, then let the power of Tao run the whole mission for you. Don't worry; it will take care of everything in the best way. See, (8-1) the highest good, the power of Tao at work, is just like water..." [here the text moves on into chapter 8.]

 

- seems to point to getting beyond the either/or thinking of the prince who feared he'd have to choose between the sacred and profane. (-:

 

 

edit typo

Edited December 10, 2010 by rene

[Marblehead]

Maybe part of the trouble is that the word conveys something that does not exist.

 

The words (and concepts) of selfless and selflessness are rooted in either/or thinking. Either "self" or "self-less".

 

How about instead of "self/selfless" the idea of "not only self" is used. You know, both.

 

The earlier lines call for both. I bet you guys can come up with a word.

 

Yeah. That's what I mean.

[dawei]

in neidan, the internal alchemy there is a set phrase -"a body outside of body", it refers to an out-of-body experience. in it, the internal body that was inside, exits the flesh body and is now outside of it. that is why this internal body is referred to here as an outside body. confusing, i know. :

I practice neidan so I understand where your going with the explanation. thanks.

[dawei]

The infinite skies, and our ancient ground...

How are they so longstanding?

 

They don't exist just by themselves, .... (which means, they don't exist only by themselves)

and that's how their growth is sustained.

 

Thus...

The Master leaves himself behind,

and his person comes forth.

Forgets himself,

and his nature unfolds.

 

Is it not this loss of only self ... or maybe Is it not this loss of just self for consistancy w/line above

by which he's filled?

 

how do you like the way i take liberties with your words!

I like that Rene

 

To borrow from Tianshi, I was thinking of the word 'not self-embodied'. I guess I need confess my taking liberties too

[cheya]

 

 

This:

[Laotzu replies] "Just practice until the power of Tao enters your body, then let the power of Tao run the whole mission for you. Don't worry; it will take care of everything in the best way. See, (8-1) the highest good, the power of Tao at work, is just like water..." [here the text moves on into chapter 8.]

- seems to point to getting beyond the either/or thinking of the prince who feared he'd have to choose between the sacred and profane. (-:
edit typo

Hi Rene
Actually, the Prince is responding in frustration to Laotzu's continual emphasis on non-action. The Prince can't figure out how he can rule his complex border state without acting. How can he control his people if he doesn't DO anything??? Laotzu continuously tells him to "broadcast" his intent through exercising the power of Tao, guiding his subjects into correct action simply through the force of his Te. TianShi's translation seems to be in the same ball park, and I'm very curious where he will go with it.

Liao's book was my gateway into the TTC. I had a couple other translations, and did appreciate the beauty of the words, but had trouble applying any of it to my life until I read Nine Nights. Then I had enough of a framework, and still plenty of confusion, to search out other translations that could address my growing list of questions! Most translations don't help much at all. Of course I'm just interested in what has meaning for me in my life, not in the finer details of the Chinese language, so I lean toward translations that treat the TTC as an instruction manual for merging with Tao.

But every translation is interesting, and I'm totally delighted with the emergence of this
TTC sub forum, and all the ensuing discussion!

 

[rene]

Actually, the Prince is responding in frustration to Laotzu's continual emphasis on non-action. The Prince can't figure out how he can rule his complex border state without acting. How can he control his people if he doesn't DO anything??? Laotzu continuously tells him to "broadcast" his intent through exercising the power of Tao, guiding his subjects into correct action simply through the force of his Te. TianShi's translation seems to be in the same ball park, and I'm very curious where he will go with it. ... But every translation is interesting, and I'm totally delighted with the emergence of this TTC sub forum, and all the ensuing discussion!

 

Me too, both.

 

And I've not heard of Nine Nights before this; something new to explore! Glad you're here. (-:

 

warm regards

 

Nine Nights

 

edit to add TaoBums link!

Edited December 10, 2010 by rene

[Aaron]

Hello people,

 

Truth is subjective. First thing to keep in mind is that this chapter doesn't appear in the Guodian Text. This is another chapter that found its way into the Tao Teh Ching as Taoism began to incorporate Buddhist and Confucian values. With that said, that is perhaps one of the reasons it's so hard to fit this into what we've learned from other chapters so far.

 

In keeping with the Guodian retrospect, the only chapters that do appear in those texts that we've looked at so far are chapter 2 and 5. Hence the idea of duality that is coming into play may be a result of the Buddhist idea of ego that became popular after the Tao Teh Ching was originally written.

 

If we examine this chapter, then there are two ways to do that, examine it in it's original context, as it relates to the other chapters we've read that have appeared in the Guodian (original intent we could call it), or examine it as it relates to the Three Religions/Philosophies that were becoming accepted as being of equal value at that time. Both examinations are valid.

 

With the latter method of examination in mind, we should keep in mind the previous chapters regarding sentimentality, which follows the Guodian view of nature. This chapter could be an attempt to reconcile that notion with Buddhist and Confucian thought that was popular at the time.

 

Aaron

Edited December 10, 2010 by Twinner

[Procurator]

Hi TianShi,

This is such a JUICY translation! Thank you!

To me, your translation has much in common with Waysun Liao

Hello, you are most welcome.

 

yes his is probably closest to original i ever saw.

[Mal]

Liao's book was my gateway into the TTC. I had a couple other translations, and did appreciate the beauty of the words, but had trouble applying any of it to my life until I read Nine Nights. Then I had enough of a framework, and still plenty of confusion, to search out other translations that could address my growing list of questions! Most translations don't help much at all. Of course I'm just interested in what has meaning for me in my life, not in the finer details of the Chinese language, so I lean toward translations that treat the TTC as an instruction manual for merging with Tao.

 

Thanks for the quotes from Nine Nights

[majc]

Ha, well I learned something from this thread. I learned that early friday evening was probably not the best time for good translateyness.

 

Is it not when self is lost that he's fulfilled?

 

edit: oh and Rene, you can take any liberties you want. It's all good.

Edited December 11, 2010 by majc

[rene]

its actually a very good question, that really goes to the crux of the matter.

 

You see, as opposed to modern j-xtian thinking an immortal soul its not a given. It has to be perfected and not every one is capable of it. That is why the text emphisises "capable", only on that condition will one have a long lasting embodiment in this world.

 

TianShi, hello

 

I've been thinking on this for a few days and, thanks to you, I can now see what the departing point is between my perspective and others'.

 

You are speaking of longevity or immortality: the taoist immortality or the christian/other immortal soul/afterlife/etc. I know there are major differences between traditions regarding this concept - but they all seem to boil down to extending one's existence beyond a natural-span life, in some form or another.

 

And I can see how the concepts in Ch 7 can be translated and used like a springboard for those whose beliefs include these things, but for me - as mine do not - the concepts in Ch 7 reflect something very different.

 

My read is that the relationship (described in the first lines) between Heaven and Earth and that which sustains it - is the same relationship that exists (in the later lines) between the Sage and that which sustains him. That which sustains - occurs naturally, at all times and in all things, including ourselves.

 

You described to Dawei in one of your posts: "Heaven and Earth are long living, its a fact. Why? Because there is something that sustains them from within, from another dimension." To me, this 'something' is already there, within us and sustaining us, just as it does for Heaven and Earth. Impartially and in a fullsome manner.

 

It seems anything more that would need to be done would be extraneous baggage designed to fill a hole that doesn't exist. Or so it seems to me.

 

warm regards

 

 

edit: cleanup

Edited December 12, 2010 by rene

[dawei]

My read is that the relationship (described in the first lines) between Heaven and Earth and that which sustains it - is the same relationship that exists (in the later lines) between the Sage and that which sustains him. That which sustains - occurs naturally, at all times and in all things, including ourselves.

 

You described to Dawei in one of your posts: "Heaven and Earth are long living, its a fact. Why? Because there is something that sustains them from within, from another dimension." To me, this 'something' is already there, within us and sustaining us, just as it does for Heaven and Earth. Impartially and in a fullsome manner.

Rene. Interesting points. I think your first point above is correct; the parallel structure implies as you said but only implies some sort of parallel picture.

 

I see the second point as partial true; It is in us but doesn't mean we possess it in the same magnitude and/or quality as Heaven and Earth. I simply care it to Qi; the Qi in me is not same as another in magnitude and/or quality. I can build it up or not. Like food, I can eat well or not. our results will differ.

 

I tend to see this difference as existing between Heaven and Earth, and people... until one seeks out to minimize those differences. Just my thoughts.

[Procurator]

TianShi, hello

 

It seems anything more that would need to be done would be extraneous baggage designed to fill a hole that doesn't exist. Or so it seems to me.

 

Hi:)

 

great, and its all good. as long as your happy with yr POV then its all good.)

[rene]

dawei and TianShi - thanks for your thoughts on this. Our perspectives are different which is natural and all the more reason I'm grateful that you (and others) share your takes on these things. (-:

 

warmest regards

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 7 - The Unselfishness

1. 天長地久。

2. 天地所以能長且久者，

3. 以其不自生，

4. 故能長生。

5. 是以聖人後其身而身先，

6. 外其身而身存。

7. 非以其無私邪！

8. 故能成其私。

 

Translation in terse English...

1. Heaven and Earth are eternal.

2. The reason they are eternal,

3. Because they do not strive for themselves.

4. Therefore, they are eternal.

5. A gentleman always place himself behind but ended up in front.

6. One keeping oneself in a neutral position will survive.

7. Is not because of his unselfishness!

8. Which gained his personal accomplishment.

[Marblehead]

Nice.

 

Line 7 can be misunderstood. Your translation leaves little room for that but still it must be remembered that the Sage is going to take care of him/herself so total unselfishness is not the case.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, it was self understood. A Sage is still human. However, in general, the emphasis was placed on the notion of "his unselfishness".

Edited May 31, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Yes, it was self understood. A Sage is still human. However, in general, the emphasis was placed on the notion of "his unselfishness".

 

Yep. Just checking in with you.

[JustARandomPanda]

I'm so happy. I finally after all these years aquired my own copies of Tao te Ching/Hua Hu Ching and the Annalects of Confucius.

 

This is the chapter I'm on currently.

 

This translation is from Hua-Ching Ni (his was the only copy that included Hua Hu Ching which I also wanted)

 

Chapter 7

 

Heaven is everlasting and Earth is perpetual

Why so? Because they live

Without holding onto any consciousness of Self.

Therefore, they can endure forever.

One who does not separate his being

from the nature of universal wholeness

lives with the universal virtue of wholeness.

He, too, dissolves all conciousness of self

and lives as the universe.

By putting himself behind others,

he finds himself foremost.

By not considering his own personal ends,

his personal life is accomplished.

He finds himself safe, secure and preserved.

Because he does not hold a narrow concept of self,

his true nature can fully merge

with the one universal life.

[anatman]

Nature is everlasting because it does not have a Self.

In this way the sage:

Serves his Self last and finds it served first;

Sees his body as accidental and finds it endures.

Because he does not serve his Self, he is content.

 

in an attempt to understand,i found this one,and no,i don't understand.i do agree with a few of the posters that there is a strong buddhist influence in this.but thanks to everyone for their comments.