[TTC Study] Chapter 7 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Aaron]

Here's the next chapter. Keep in mind if you want to discuss a different chapter, just post it, no one will mind.

 

Chapter Seven

 

(Translated by John C. H. Wu)

 

Heaven lasts long, and Earth abides.

What is the secret of their durability?

Is it not because they do not live for themselves

That they can live so long?

 

Therefore, the Sage wants to remain behind,

But finds himself at the head of others;

Reckons himself out,

But finds himself safe and secure.

Is it not because he is selfless

That his Self is realised?

 

 

(Translated by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

 

Heaven and Earth last forever.

Why do heaven and Earth last forever?

They are unborn,

So ever living.

The sage stays behind, thus he is ahead.

He is detached, thus at one with all.

Through selfless action, he attains fulfillment.

 

 

(Translated by Robert G. Henricks: Note this translation is translated from an older version of the Tao Teh Ching and may differ from other translations.)

 

1. Heaven endures; Earth lasts a long time.

2. The reason why Heaven and Earth can endure and last a long time—

3. Is that they do not live for themselves.

4. Therefore they can long endure.

 

5. Therefore the Sage:

6. Puts himself in the background yet finds himself in the foreground;

7. Puts self-concern out of [his mind], yet finds self-concern in the fore;

8. Puts self-concern out of [his mind], yet finds that his self-concern is preserved.

9. Is it not because he has no self-interest,

10. That he is therefore able to realize his self-interest?

 

 

--------------

 

I look forward to the discussion.

 

Aaron

Edited December 8, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Just a note to Henricks' translation, Line 7:

 

"Line 7 is not found in Text A and is also not found in any other known edition of the text. It would appear to be a copy error."

[Marblehead]

What? No one wants to be first to comment on this chapter? Surely y'all aren't waiting for me to be first to comment again!

[Apech]

What? No one wants to be first to comment on this chapter? Surely y'all aren't waiting for me to be first to comment again!

 

By not wanting to be first, you are first.

 

Are you a true Sage Marblehead???

[Marblehead]

By not wanting to be first, you are first.

 

Are you a true Sage Marblehead???

 

Yeah, maybe I was first but I haven't said anything yet. (Hehehe. I sometimes do that even when I say something.)

 

No. I have never nor will I ever suggest that I 'know' anything. Oh, sure, I have my understandings and opinions but you know what the say about opinions? Just like a butt-hole, everyone has one.

 

But I do know how to learn from my mistakes and I assure you, I have made more than my share of mistakes in life.

 

So what's this chapter all about?

 

Only one concept presented as far as I understand it: ego and selfishness.

 

If we preserve those things around us those things around us will provide for all our needs. (Yes, needs, not necessarily desires.)

 

So many examples of this, and so obvious, I think, that I need not even mention any.

[manitou]

Regarding Chapter 7; It seems that the analogy is drawn between the universe not living for Self, giving life to other things through its transformation; and the Sage not living for Self, giving life to others through his transformation. By putting ourselves last, we are not standing on our tiptoes. We are not contending or trying to be more than we are. But by putting ourselves last and Doing Nothing on a situation, the situations will rise and fall as they are intended, knowing that we hold the truth in our hearts and the truth will finally come around to fruition in its own time. The Sage is not a manipulator, but he is capable of bending the light at a very deep level. This is how his Self achieves perfection.

[rene]

I was told once that the Feng translation has buddhist flavorings. Now, I dont know anything about that, but in looking at how differently the opening lines in the three translations are rendered, I can see maybe so.

 

For me, starting with Ch 7, things start to get really repetitive... still enjoyable to peruse, but nothing foundationally new that isn't there already in Ch 1 & 2. My take is that when there's nothing new underlying - the external forms are more open to subjective rendering, opening the door to bring in any desired slant: word choices to support applications towards specific traditions, moralistic justifications, directives, etc.

 

Which is all fine, and I'll enjoy reading everyones' ideas and theories, but I probably wont have much input now.. unless I really disagree with something. Or if I just feel like posting.

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

Which is all fine, and I'll enjoy reading everyones' ideas and theories, but I probably wont have much input now.. unless I really disagree with something. Or if I just feel like posting.

 

warm regards

 

Oh. I'm sure you will find a few reasons to disagree with me. Hehehe.

[dawei]

The main beef I have with translations of this chapter is the opening use of "everlasting", "forever" or "eternal". I know I have read other text of this period and they say even heaven and earth have an end, so a literal meaning is probably not meant. As well, this has become an idiom expression to mean "endure while the earth lasts".

 

Hendricks has an interesting comment that there is an early say, "Heaven Covers and Earth Supports"; they live or exist for the sake of the ten thousand things (not for themself). I only find Yutang also shares this phrase in his commentary.

 

Here are the two original characters for Chang and Jiu the opening line:

 

天長地久

tiān cháng dì jiǔ

 

 

Heaven "Chang" >> Earth "Jiu" >>

 

Only the English/Feng translation above is NOT parallel for lines 1 and 4, which I think the latter is a definition for the former. Each line literally:

line 1: Heaven-long [in distance]-Earth-long [in time]

line 4: Therefore-capable-long-life

 

IMO, however you translate line 4 should reflect that meaning in line 1.

 

In fact, upon further inspection, if I am allowed a second 'beef'... none of them really tie together the first and second parts enough. Hendricks has a hint of it with the word "preserved"; I never realized how much I can disagree with the common translation of what I thought were simple passages...

Edited December 10, 2010 by dawei

[Procurator]

I was told once that the Feng translation has buddhist flavorings. Now, I dont know anything about that, but in looking at how differently the opening lines in the three translations are rendered, I can see maybe so.

 

For me, starting with Ch 7, things start to get really repetitive...

 

Hi rene let me amuse you a little bit cause it would be a shame if you get bored wouldnt it now?

 

u see its not the original that gets repetitive its the know-nothing translators run out of their limited understanding, so their forced to chew same fat over and over.

 

"Heaven and Earth endure because they are selfless" is not that singular nonsense? I can give to charity all i want how that is gonna help with my longevity?

 

as usual the translations could not be any further from the truth.

 

but rejoice! there is a startling new truth in this passage.

 

here is the truth:

 

韬光 Sheathing the internal body

 

天長地久。Heaven is long lasting Earth is long enduring.

天地所以能長且久者，

Heaven and Earth are capable of being long lasting and ever long enduring

以其不自生，becase they do not live OF THEIR OWN ACCORD

故能長生。Therefore they are capable of long life

是以聖人 That is why the saints have

後其身而身先；a former body but also a latter body;

外其身而身存。a non-body but also a sheath body

非以其無私耶？without it how would their Non-Being embody?

故能成其私。Its because of the above they are capable of perfecting their embodiment.

[rene]

韬光 Sheathing the internal body

 

天長地久。Heaven is long lasting Earth is long enduring.

天地所以能長且久者，

Heaven and Earth are capable of being long lasting and ever long enduring

以其不自生，becase they do not live OF THEIR OWN ACCORD

故能長生。Therefore they are capable of long life

是以聖人 That is why the saints have

後其身而身先；a former body but also a latter body;

外其身而身存。a non-body but also a sheath body

非以其無私耶？without it how would their Non-Being embody?

故能成其私。Its because of the above they are capable of perfecting their embodiment.

 

so the phrase 'of their own accord' in the first part correlates with the 'sheath body' in the second part.... and what lasts is 1) the internal body of heaven and earth, and 2) the non-body of the saints.

 

right?

[Procurator]

 

 

right?

yes! absolutely correct. with one minor twist added. the outside physical sheath-body is also made everlasting by virtue of an eternal body inhabiting it.

Edited December 10, 2010 by TianShi

[rene]

yes! absolutely correct. with one minor twist added the outside physical sheath-body is also made everlasting by the virtue of an eternal body inhabiting it.

right - i figured that was already a given.

 

So then, of what need or meaning is the phrase in the last line "capable of perfecting their embodiment" ?

 

With the eternal body inhabiting, isn't the embodiment already 'perfected'?

 

What more would one need?

[dawei]

天長地久。Heaven is long lasting Earth is long enduring.

天地所以能長且久者，

Heaven and Earth are capable of being long lasting and ever long enduring

以其不自生，becase they do not live OF THEIR OWN ACCORD

故能長生。Therefore they are capable of long life

是以聖人 That is why the saints have

後其身而身先；a former body but also a latter body;

外其身而身存。a non-body but also a sheath body

非以其無私耶？without it how would their Non-Being embody?

故能成其私。Its because of the above they are capable of perfecting their embodiment.

your first four lines are common and understandable.

 

Then the fifth line has a slightly different break from common translations on the Sage. ok, that makes sense.

 

Former and latter... body vs non-body because of wai? You read that from the later line of "wu si" , non-being embody, from ebodiment.

 

but the whole point is the progression of meaning:

long lasting means embodiment?

[Procurator]

 

but the whole point is the progression of meaning:

long lasting means embodiment?

Hi:)

 

yes, may be we can put it that way as a shorthand. but if we rephrase what the passage really says it would sound like this:

 

"Heaven and Earth are long living, its a fact. Why? Because there is something that sustains them from within, from another dimension. Now, the saints (the former emperors like Huang, Yu, Shun) were also long living. Why? Because within their bodies of flesh there was an energy body that sustained them from within.What can we learn from this two facts? That if we want to live long we need to imitate this and develop energy bodies."

[Procurator]

right - i figured that was already a given.

 

So then, of what need or meaning is the phrase in the last line "capable of perfecting their embodiment" ?

 

With the eternal body inhabiting, isn't the embodiment already 'perfected'?

 

What more would one need?

its actually a very good question, that really goes to the crux of the matter.

 

You see, as opposed to modern j-xtian thinking an immortal soul its not a given. It has to be perfected and not every one is capable of it. That is why the text emphasises "capable", only on that condition will one have a long lasting embodiment in this world.

[majc]

Hi:)yes, may be we can put it that way as a shorthand. but if we rephrase what the passage really says it woud sound like this:"Heaven and Earth are long living, its a fact. Why? Because there is something that sustains them from within, from another dimension. Now, the saints (the former emperors like Huang, Yu, Shun) were also long living. Why? Because within their bodies of flesh there was an energy body that sustained them from within.What can we learn from this two facts? That if want to live long we need to imitate this and develop energy bodies."

Oh god... pun intended.

 

Dear mods,

 

as long as I make it clear that I'm talking about the twisting of characters in order to fit with what he has decided they should mean before he starts out, is it ok if I call TianShi a ginormous bender?

 

Thanks,

 

majc

[Procurator]

your first four lines are common and understandable.

 

Then the fifth line has a slightly different break from common translations on the Sage. ok, that makes sense.

 

Former and latter... body vs non-body because of wai?

 

in neidan, the internal alchemy there is a set phrase -"a body outside of body", it refers to an out-of-body experience. in it, the internal body that was inside, exits the flesh body and is now outside of it. that is why this internal body is referred to here as an outside body. confusing, i know. :

[Procurator]

call TianShi a ginormous bender?

 

Thanks,

 

majc

Dear majc, i dont know about the mods but you r very welcome to call me anything u like.)

 

dont mention it:)

[majc]

Thanks buddy! I got reported and cautioned before for adding a 't' to the end of your name in what can only be described as a moment of raging hate-fuelled viciousness.

[majc]

Seriously though dude, your thoughts might stand on what I suspect is a mistaken foundation, but they're actually pretty helpful nonetheless. Shine your light on chapter 6 for us... that's a weird one for government, isn't it?

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Y'all are getting way too personal and metaphysical for me to join the discussion.

 

But I am reading your posts.

[majc]

7.

 

The infinite skies, and our ancient ground...

How are they so longstanding?

 

They don't exist just by themselves.

That's how their growth can be sustained.

 

Thus...

The Master leaves himself behind,

and his person comes forth.

Forgets himself,

and his nature unfolds.

 

Is it not when self is lost that he's fulfilled?

 

http://www.openwisdom.org/tao-te-ching/#7

Edited December 11, 2010 by majc

[Marblehead]

7.

 

The infinite skies, and our ancient ground...

How are they so longstanding?

 

They don't exist just by themselves,

that's how their growth can be sustained.

 

http://www.openwisdom.org/tao-te-ching/#7

 

Interesting, these four lines. True that no things 'exist just by themselves'.

 

I think that this is important when considering the role of ego. We are not more than we really are, and that's really not very much in the great picture of the universe.

 

Whether we live "for" ourself or "by" ourself is really the same thing. Either way is "Self" destroying.

 

I do have a problem with the word "selflessness" though because of the extreme lengths one can suggest that we disregard 'self'. Preservation of 'self' is the instinct of survival. If we try to destroy this instinct we will never be at peace with our 'Self".

[majc]

I know what you mean, I don't like "selflessness" there either. I haven't come up with a better (less potentially misleading) way of expressing it yet but I will.