Religion and reward systems

[strawdog65]

Hello everyone!

 

 

In the practice of a religious belief that is based on a "reward system" such as

heaven, nirvana, or any other kind of promised afterlife, are the actions of the

followers truly genuine if they only act a certain way to reach that afterlife?

If there is no sincerity of the actions... does it matter?

 

My opinion is that, although they may not be sincere about what they do,

their actions still matter. Since our actions define us, what's the difference?

 

I used to believe that the people living their lives trying to get to "heaven"

were just wasting their lives. I see now that it doesn't matter what they

believe as long as they are acting with regard for the world they live in.

This to me is a true reason to be tolerant of any religion that by its

actions has proven its reverence for all life.

 

Conscientious awareness, and the realization of our actions being

necessary or not, this is what I think matters most.

 

The argument that there is only one path... is a fallacy.

The TAO is nameless, the TAO is part of everything imaginable

and unimaginable. All paths do eventually intersect and return

to the all encompassing mystery that is TAO.

 

Peace!

[KoolAid900]

Hello everyone!

 

 

In the practice of a religious belief that is based on a "reward system" such as

heaven, nirvana, or any other kind of promised afterlife, are the actions of the

followers truly genuine if they only act a certain way to reach that afterlife?

If there is no sincerity of the actions... does it matter?

 

My opinion is that, although they may not be sincere about what they do,

their actions still matter. Since our actions define us, what's the difference?

 

I used to believe that the people living their lives trying to get to "heaven"

were just wasting their lives. I see now that it doesn't matter what they

believe as long as they are acting with regard for the world they live in.

This to me is a true reason to be tolerant of any religion that by its

actions has proven its reverence for all life.

 

Conscientious awareness, and the realization of our actions being

necessary or not, this is what I think matters most.

 

The argument that there is only one path... is a fallacy.

The TAO is nameless, the TAO is part of everything imaginable

and unimaginable. All paths do eventually intersect and return

to the all encompassing mystery that is TAO.

 

Peace!

 

That went a different way than I expected, nice!

[Marblehead]

That went a different way than I expected, nice!

 

Yep. And isn't it neat that the conclusion was that religion doesn't really matter but rather the way we live our life is what speaks to the kind of person we are?

[3bob]

From K. Gibran

 

On Religion

And an old priest said, "Speak to us of Religion."

And he said:

Have I spoken this day of aught else?

Is not religion all deeds and all reflection,

And that which is neither deed nor reflection, but a wonder and a surprise ever springing in the soul,

even while the hands hew the stone or tend the loom?

Who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupations?

Who can spread his hours before him, saying, "This for God and this for myself;

This for my soul, and this other for my body?"

All your hours are wings that beat through space from self to self.

He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked.

The wind and the sun will tear no holes in his skin.

And he who defines his conduct by ethics imprisons his song-bird in a cage.

The freest song comes not through bars and wires.

And he to whom worshipping is a window, to open but also to shut, has not yet visited the house of

his soul whose windows are from dawn to dawn.

Your daily life is your temple and your religion.

Whenever you enter into it take with you your all.

Take the plough and the forge and the mallet and the lute,

The things you have fashioned in necessity or for delight.

For in revery you cannot rise above your achievements nor fall lower than your failures.

And take with you all men:

For in adoration you cannot fly higher than their hopes nor humble yourself lower than their despair.

And if you would know God be not therefore a solver of riddles.

Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.

And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightning

and descending in rain.

You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees.

[Alfred E]

From K. Gibran

 

On Religion

And an old priest said, "Speak to us of Religion."

And he said:

Have I spoken this day of aught else?

Is not religion all deeds and all reflection,

And that which is neither deed nor reflection, but a wonder and a surprise ever springing in the soul,

even while the hands hew the stone or tend the loom?

Who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupations?

Who can spread his hours before him, saying, "This for God and this for myself;

This for my soul, and this other for my body?"

All your hours are wings that beat through space from self to self.

He who wears his morality but as his best garment were better naked.

The wind and the sun will tear no holes in his skin.

And he who defines his conduct by ethics imprisons his song-bird in a cage.

The freest song comes not through bars and wires.

And he to whom worshipping is a window, to open but also to shut, has not yet visited the house of

his soul whose windows are from dawn to dawn.

Your daily life is your temple and your religion.

Whenever you enter into it take with you your all.

Take the plough and the forge and the mallet and the lute,

The things you have fashioned in necessity or for delight.

For in revery you cannot rise above your achievements nor fall lower than your failures.

And take with you all men:

For in adoration you cannot fly higher than their hopes nor humble yourself lower than their despair.

And if you would know God be not therefore a solver of riddles.

Rather look about you and you shall see Him playing with your children.

And look into space; you shall see Him walking in the cloud, outstretching His arms in the lightning

and descending in rain.

You shall see Him smiling in flowers, then rising and waving His hands in trees.

 

Thanks - Gibran is one of my favorites I discovered his book "A Tear and a Smile" by accident one day in a museum in Savannah, Georgia where they had his original pencil drawings: "Souls on Fire"

A few Quotes:

"The Whole world is made of Fire and Ice

The burning half is Love."

 

"In the village of the insaine, the Half-wit is hanged;" <=< self explainatory

 

In the village of the blind, the one eyed man is king"

In other words - if you can show them - how to do - where to walk - you are a real teacher.

 

Gibran was from Lebanon.

[manitou]

It doesn't seem possible to improve on how Khalil Gibran put it. that was a thing of beauty. Thank you for typing that out---

 

Yes, I agree it's all about our everyday life. Discussions in this forum often remain in the theoretical, and it would be nice to see this moved a little closer to home. Every action in our day is a direct reflection of our personal philosophy, at the deepest level. And the incredible thing is that we can change our philosophy by first changing our actions. To try and remain in a state of gentle kindness as we're going about the day - this can be an incredible challenge - even though we may sail the heavens in our understanding of the Tao. The Sage is not a fictitious character that we are reading 'about'. The Sage is us. Or at least the highest level of us. It's what we aspire to, otherwise all of this is just mental masturbation.

 

Living in the Appalachians as we do, we are utterly surrounded by bible-thumpers. It seems that their way of looking at things is smug and arrogant - after all, they're going to a wonderful heaven (in fact, they'll be swooped up in some sort of rapture mechanism) and the rest of us heathens will remain here in the slugfest. But there are some wonderful things that come out of their beliefs - many of the churches hook up with say, Habitat for Humanity or simimlar organization, and the church members do an active type of volunteerism. There is some real good there, even if the reasons for participating are selfish or styled toward a satisfactory afterlife.

 

We all make up the whole. The way I see it, I see humanity as a series of concentric circles, each circle containing the same mindset of the people in the circle. The Christians have their place, as do we. There's nothing more beautiful than a Mature Christian who has climbed out of the dogma and ascends to the room of Oneness. When they finally aspire to a Christ-like countenance, this is the room where all paths meet. It's easier for a Taoist to make their way into the room - because the form has already been lost. It's very easy for an atheist to meet in the room - all they need to add is love, if their mindset permits. They have no structure to transcend.

 

The room where all paths meet is the room of love. This is also the room where Wu-Wei, The Power of Silence, or The Peace that Passeth All Understanding comes together. It seems that all great paths end up in this same place where non-action is actually the true dynamic when one knows how to use it. Love and wu-wei go together.

 

I see the Tao Bums, and other sites like this one such as EnlightenNext, etc. - as one of the concentric circles I mentioned above. We are like-minded people communicating at a high frequency vibrational level. Our intent, some of us, is as impeccable as we can make it. This phenomenon with the Internet and instant communications and bringing like-minded spiritual people together is quite something. It's all one. Our psyche is one with the Internet, one of the 10,000 things. Perhaps discussion forums like ours are the tip of the consciousness sphere, as far as human communications are concerned (on a mass level). It feels like we are evolving - and the Internet is the tool doing it. We ARE the supreme intelligence, and for the first time the supreme intelligence can speak back and forth to itself.

[Brian]

Well stated, manitou.

[RyanO]

 

The argument that there is only one path... is a fallacy.

The TAO is nameless, the TAO is part of everything imaginable

and unimaginable. All paths do eventually intersect and return

to the all encompassing mystery that is TAO.

 

 

 

I definitely agree with a lot of what's been said here, but just to offer another perspective, isn't this somewhat contradictory?

 

To say all paths are equal and that they are all part of the Tao? For instance, many monotheists would argue that a personal God is the highest reality.

 

It recalls in my mind the work of John Hick, arguably the most influential religious pluralist:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hick

 

There's a lot to say, but basically his idea is that there is the 'Real' (ie transcendent reality) that one cannot speak about absolutely, only relatively (sounds a lot like the Tao). Religious perceptions all have their own take on this 'Real'.

 

But of course he has his critics. For instance, in some forms of Buddhism, there is no Real, wheareas in Christianity, absolute things can be said about God.

 

Though I realize that your original point was that any religion that teaches reverence for life gets a thumbs up in your book, mine too! Sadly, some do not fall into this category

[Vajrahridaya]

I agree Ryan-O

 

Also, for a Buddhist, this one is made of many, and this one does not subvert the many as well as the many possibilities of many different perspectives. This one is not an ultimate source of the many, but just a holistic view of seeing the many. This one is not a real self standing one that subverts variations and makes them disappear, though you can have that experience if you attach to that idea with enough focus and power, this still doesn't make it anymore real. Buddhism recognizes just how deep chaos goes as well as how deeply ordered it is at the same time.

 

It's true that love is a room that all good spiritual traditions share, but how that love is utilized and cultivated, and maintained is really very different. Some will dissolve into a formless love at death because they believe that very intensely is the Self of all (Vedanta). Other paths teach how to have loving awareness into other lives taking tools of teaching with them in order to help others endlessly (Buddhism), some teach how to have love for a God of all and how to get to a realm where they can be with there favorite idea of God either form or formless in loving embrace(Monotheism).

 

It's true that Love is the great equalizer, but for a Buddhist, there is more to Nirvana than just that.

 

It's a nice gushy feeling when we see that we can all have love and it's the only emotion that can truly be de-conditioned, yes, made infinite. But, Buddhism just doesn't align with the view or experience that all things are really just one thing.

 

It never has. To disagree is to just say that Buddhism is wrong at it's very core, which is fine. But, we are not "monists" (one-ists). I think it's good to not be confused about how ultimate differences can be when it comes to the relative world, and for a Buddhist, that's all there is, there is no ultimate "truth" only an ultimate "insight" called "awake", (Buddhahood).

 

I am a religious pluralist, as I see that all religions have goodness to offer and are worthy of respect, but I also recognize that they have different conclusions about the nature of reality that is not only relative, but ultimate.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[strawdog65]

It doesn't seem possible to improve on how Khalil Gibran put it. that was a thing of beauty. Thank you for typing that out---

 

 

 

Living in the Appalachians as we do, we are utterly surrounded by bible-thumpers. It seems that their way of looking at things is smug and arrogant - after all, they're going to a wonderful heaven (in fact, they'll be swooped up in some sort of rapture mechanism) and the rest of us heathens will remain here in the slugfest. But there are some wonderful things that come out of their beliefs - many of the churches hook up with say, Habitat for Humanity or simimlar organization, and the church members do an active type of volunteerism. There is some real good there, even if the reasons for participating are selfish or styled toward a satisfactory afterlife.

 

We all make up the whole. The way I see it, I see humanity as a series of concentric circles, each circle containing the same mindset of the people in the circle. The Christians have their place, as do we. There's nothing more beautiful than a Mature Christian who has climbed out of the dogma and ascends to the room of Oneness. When they finally aspire to a Christ-like countenance, this is the room where all paths meet. It's easier for a Taoist to make their way into the room - because the form has already been lost. It's very easy for an atheist to meet in the room - all they need to add is love, if their mindset permits. They have no structure to transcend.

 

The room where all paths meet is the room of love. This is also the room where Wu-Wei, The Power of Silence, or The Peace that Passeth All Understanding comes together. It seems that all great paths end up in this same place where non-action is actually the true dynamic when one knows how to use it. Love and wu-wei go together.

 

I see the Tao Bums, and other sites like this one such as EnlightenNext, etc. - as one of the concentric circles I mentioned above. We are like-minded people communicating at a high frequency vibrational level. Our intent, some of us, is as impeccable as we can make it. This phenomenon with the Internet and instant communications and bringing like-minded spiritual people together is quite something. It's all one. Our psyche is one with the Internet, one of the 10,000 things. Perhaps discussion forums like ours are the tip of the consciousness sphere, as far as human communications are concerned (on a mass level). It feels like we are evolving - and the Internet is the tool doing it. We ARE the supreme intelligence, and for the first time the supreme intelligence can speak back and forth to itself.

 

 

Hi Manitou!

 

Thank you for your tremendously heartfelt comments. I resonate to my very core with

what you have elucidated with your words! Incredibly awesome Manitou...YOU Rock!

 

I did not want to make it sound like all religions are the same thing... only that we are all

heading to the same ultimate direction regardless of what we believe or our motivators may be.

The intersection is TAO ... and of course LOVE... especially Love that is without judgment and

free from corruption.

 

Manitou, this part is especially relevant to my personal life...thank you for stating it:

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

Yes, I agree it's all about our everyday life. Discussions in this forum often remain in the theoretical, and it would be nice to see this moved a little closer to home. Every action in our day is a direct reflection of our personal philosophy, at the deepest level. And the incredible thing is that we can change our philosophy by first changing our actions. To try and remain in a state of gentle kindness as we're going about the day - this can be an incredible challenge - even though we may sail the heavens in our understanding of the Tao. The Sage is not a fictitious character that we are reading 'about'. The Sage is us. Or at least the highest level of us. It's what we aspire to, otherwise all of this is just mental masturbation.

 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

 

To endeavor to really walk the walk.... to make changes in our actions... to be consciously "aware" of

our everyday actions and motives for all we do. This challenge is our true becoming!

 

 

Peace!

[RyanO]

Haha figured you might agree Vaj

[Prince...]

I definitely agree with a lot of what's been said here, but just to offer another perspective, isn't this somewhat contradictory?

 

To say all paths are equal and that they are all part of the Tao? For instance, many monotheists would argue that a personal God is the highest reality.

 

It recalls in my mind the work of John Hick, arguably the most influential religious pluralist:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hick

 

There's a lot to say, but basically his idea is that there is the 'Real' (ie transcendent reality) that one cannot speak about absolutely, only relatively (sounds a lot like the Tao). Religious perceptions all have their own take on this 'Real'.

 

But of course he has his critics. For instance, in some forms of Buddhism, there is no Real, wheareas in Christianity, absolute things can be said about God.

 

Though I realize that your original point was that any religion that teaches reverence for life gets a thumbs up in your book, mine too! Sadly, some do not fall into this category

 

His work sounds somewhat like Paul Tillich and his writing about "the God above God" who transcends religion. Tillich says that all religions are an expression of god consciousness to reach the God above God who transcends religion. Where he shoots himself in the foot is when he says where he believes Christianity is the best way. Maybe he was saying the best way for him-- my books are still packed up in my apartment at Seminary 200 miles away.

 

The problem I have with Abrahimic religions are that the concept of Heaven/Hell came much later. You have to ask the question of how Hades replaces Sheol in Biblical scriptures. It wasn't simply substituting a Hebrew word with a Greek word-- that's like substituting a BTFO Dodge for a Bentley, in a sense. The entire idea of Hades replaced the idea of Sheol-- and then a later shift occured because the average person would call me a liar if I said Hades is a nice play to be if you go to the Elysian Fields.

 

Anyway, in 1st and 2nd Temple Judaism (of which Jesus of Nazareth and his followers began teaching at the end of the 2nd period) the idea of an afterlife was not widely accepted. You died, you went to Sheol. It was a shadow realm. That was it.

 

Sometimes I attend AA and NA meetings as a supporter. One guy told his tale of how ministers were pissed off when he said he found God at AA when those same ministers were unable to help him kick his crack addiction. I told him it is because AA is real. When people talk about what they did to kick that addiction, they are talking about something that really worked for them. When a minister stands up and preaches how to get to Heaven? They are talking about a place they have not been or seen and may not even exist depending how deep they wish to go in their scriptures AND the history behind the scriptures.

 

Sorry for the long rant, even though I've decided against ordination, I'm still a preacher/teacher at heart.

[RyanO]

His work sounds somewhat like Paul Tillich and his writing about "the God above God" who transcends religion. Tillich says that all religions are an expression of god consciousness to reach the God above God who transcends religion. Where he shoots himself in the foot is when he says where he believes Christianity is the best way. Maybe he was saying the best way for him-- my books are still packed up in my apartment at Seminary 200 miles away.

 

The problem I have with Abrahimic religions are that the concept of Heaven/Hell came much later. You have to ask the question of how Hades replaces Sheol in Biblical scriptures. It wasn't simply substituting a Hebrew word with a Greek word-- that's like substituting a BTFO Dodge for a Bentley, in a sense. The entire idea of Hades replaced the idea of Sheol-- and then a later shift occured because the average person would call me a liar if I said Hades is a nice play to be if you go to the Elysian Fields.

 

Anyway, in 1st and 2nd Temple Judaism (of which Jesus of Nazareth and his followers began teaching at the end of the 2nd period) the idea of an afterlife was not widely accepted. You died, you went to Sheol. It was a shadow realm. That was it.

 

Sometimes I attend AA and NA meetings as a supporter. One guy told his tale of how ministers were pissed off when he said he found God at AA when those same ministers were unable to help him kick his crack addiction. I told him it is because AA is real. When people talk about what they did to kick that addiction, they are talking about something that really worked for them. When a minister stands up and preaches how to get to Heaven? They are talking about a place they have not been or seen and may not even exist depending how deep they wish to go in their scriptures AND the history behind the scriptures.

 

Sorry for the long rant, even though I've decided against ordination, I'm still a preacher/teacher at heart.

 

Hi Prince,

 

Cool stuff! I majored in Religion in college (I concentrated in Buddhism), and every time I tell someone that they ask me why I didn't go to seminary! Did I mention I live in the heart of the Bible belt?

 

Your story about the minister is a telling one. A lot of times a person with a more liberal approach to religion will espouse how all religions have their virtues and are good for certain people. And this is true to a certain extent. But sadly, it seems the majority of religious people don't have this view. Even people who pay lip-service to ideas about tolerance think their religion is best (after all, why would they follow it if it weren't?), and as such often still try to convert people to their way.

 

This is one reason I heartily endorse they use of reason as a tool evaluate religious claims. One of my favorite books in this arena is The End of Faith by Sam Harris. Interestingly, Harris is one of the main faces in the new atheist movement, against his will: he thinks the term atheist is both intellectually dishonest and tactically unsound. Many atheist fundamentalists gloss over or disdain his last chapter on the preference for a rational spirituality.

[3bob]

Off topic but I read where K. Gibran recounts part of a past life of jis Judas the betrayer of Jesus.

[Birch]

Sam Harris is hot