What is there to win?

[strawdog65]

Hello everyone!

 

 

I am constantly confronted with the conclusion that contention

is useless If contention is just an excuse to create an argument.

 

In any argument what is there to win? ( I am quite emphatically

speaking of an intellectual argument, nothing physical where

your life may be at risk.)

 

Fighting for your side of whatever it may be,

even if its just your belief of what is true.

 

What is to be won?

 

A pat on the back of the winning sides ego?

 

And what is winning?

 

You most times still leave an argument with the same point

of view you arrived with, and nothing has changed.

 

What difference does it make if someone disagrees with you?

 

If the Tao is really impartial then both viewpoints can be said to

have equal merit at all times. There will always be evidence to

support either side of the argument.

 

All People judge things based on what they believe to be true.

So an argument can be said to be a disagreement with someone else's truth.

 

So... what is there to be won?

 

Nothing is to be won.... arguing about a viewpoint

is a race of the Ego, there are no winners.

 

Therefore....I humbly submit to you my fellow Taobums,

that contention for the act of just arguing is wasted on the Sage.

He will not contend, for he knows it matters not what other

people think, Tao accepts all viewpoints into its completeness.

 

 

Peace!

[Sloppy Zhang]

In philosophy classes in the past, I've come across forms of dialectic. It's basically argument, but the goal is not to win- in arguing, two (or more) people learn more about their side, the side of the opposition, and can explore a topic more deeply, coming across concepts that neither would have discovered on their own (at least in the areas of it I studied, which focused on Plato, and his use of it in some Socratic dialogues).

 

So even if your goal of argument is not "to win", that doesn't mean it is useless either.

 

As many have mentioned in the "has TTB helped you?" thread, discussion can lead to alternative views, opening new paths, allow you to get new perspectives on your own path, question yourself, test your convictions, change, or keep the ones you already have, etc etc.

 

No reason to shy away from a good bit of contention, as long as you maintain your awareness of what it is you are doing, and do not get caught up in any juvenile actions.

Edited December 10, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Taomeow]

There's two main impulses that draw people of two different kinds into arguments:

 

1. I need to prove I am right.

 

If I'm not right, I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, mommy and daddy won't love me. (The world is a stand-off for mommy and daddy who were the first experience of "the world" and got the basic blueprint of "what the world is like" imprinted into the child. For people imprinted in this manner, proving their rightness is, on a deeper level, about proving to the world their right to exist, something they aren't imprinted to take for granted and need to keep struggling to establish. Because it is the struggle itself that was imprinted rather than the "victory," no amount of victories ever makes any difference to them -- they will still seek the struggle. This is typical for those who were not accepted for who they are early on, and instead were being molded and shaped into what the parents wanted to get for the end product, either by direct demands or indirectly via subtle "attitudes" of approval and disapproval toward the child's every manifestation. Many of them had to show "accomplishments" or else face contempt, lack of acceptance, lack of love... lack of the right to just be. In other words, this type of personality originates in trauma.)

 

2. I need truth to prevail over lies, misconceptions, delusions, mistakes, falsehoods, ruses, honest but costly errors, dishonest manipulations, and so on.

 

This is normal and healthy. One may or may not verbalize this need, but not verbalizing it is nowhere near "always" superior to verbalizing it. "Wake up, your house is on fire" is what you might want a neighbor next door to be able to yell at the top of his lungs rather than keep to himself.

[rene]

I grew up playing a game with my dad: "Pick a topic, any topic. Pick a side, any side, I'll take the other." and we'd be off to the races! As soon as we'd reach a seeming stalemate - we'd switch sides and argue the opposite position! Most times it would end up with us both laughing to tears and conceding there was no clear winner. I played this with him for 40 years. Our last game was the week before he died. I let him win that one.

[strawdog65]

I grew up playing a game with my dad: "Pick a topic, any topic. Pick a side, any side, I'll take the other." and we'd be off to the races! As soon as we'd reach a seeming stalemate - we'd switch sides and argue the opposite position! Most times it would end up with us both laughing to tears and conceding there was no clear winner. I played this with him for 40 years. Our last game was the week before he died. I let him win that one.

 

That to me sounds like the very best contention possible.

What a wonderful parent, mentor and friend.

Rene, you are fortunate to have had such an influence in your life.

 

 

Peace!

[Taomeow]

I grew up playing a game with my dad: "Pick a topic, any topic. Pick a side, any side, I'll take the other." and we'd be off to the races! As soon as we'd reach a seeming stalemate - we'd switch sides and argue the opposite position! Most times it would end up with us both laughing to tears and conceding there was no clear winner. I played this with him for 40 years. Our last game was the week before he died. I let him win that one.

 

Sounds wonderful.

 

My parents used to always agree with each other and never have arguments between themselves -- they teamed up against me instead. Did you and your dad gang up on your mom by any chance? or a sibling of yours?..

[rene]

Did you and your dad gang up on your mom by any chance? or a sibling of yours?..

 

Gang up? Not that I recall; never a need to gang up re anything in our family. Mom and my brother didn't join in on the game but they were usually around watching us go at it . In later years, there were times when I had the opportunity to work with dad and as a team, well, our 'win' record was about 98%, which meant more to our clients, than us.

[rene]

That to me sounds like the very best contention possible.

What a wonderful parent, mentor and friend.

Rene, you are fortunate to have had such an influence in your life.

 

strawdog, thanks, yes - I'm grateful every day to have had the childhood I did. (-:

[Taomeow]

Gang up? Not that I recall; never a need to gang up re anything in our family. Mom and my brother didn't join in on the game but they were usually around watching us go at it . In later years, there were times when I had the opportunity to work with dad and as a team, well, our 'win' record was about 98%, which meant more to our clients, than us.

 

Nice. Well, you will have to forgive my looking under the carpet and around the dark corners, I've seen very few happy families and fewer happy childhoods. (I posted in the John Lennon Legacy thread today thinking exactly along these lines -- have you heard what he has to say to his audience before he starts singing "Mother"? I tend to hold a similar view... we had the same therapist, only some 25 years apart. )

[Alfred E]

Hello everyone!

 

 

I am constantly confronted with the conclusion that contention

is useless If contention is just an excuse to create an argument.

 

In any argument what is there to win? ( I am quite emphatically

speaking of an intellectual argument, nothing physical where

your life may be at risk.)

 

Fighting for your side of whatever it may be,

even if its just your belief of what is true.

 

What is to be won?

 

A pat on the back of the winning sides ego?

 

And what is winning?

 

You most times still leave an argument with the same point

of view you arrived with, and nothing has changed.

 

What difference does it make if someone disagrees with you?

 

If the Tao is really impartial then both viewpoints can be said to

have equal merit at all times. There will always be evidence to

support either side of the argument.

 

All People judge things based on what they believe to be true.

So an argument can be said to be a disagreement with someone else's truth.

 

So... what is there to be won?

 

Nothing is to be won.... arguing about a viewpoint

is a race of the Ego, there are no winners.

 

Therefore....I humbly submit to you my fellow Taobums,

that contention for the act of just arguing is wasted on the Sage.

He will not contend, for he knows it matters not what other

people think, Tao accepts all viewpoints into its completeness.

 

 

Peace!

 

I keep Some people on Perm-Ignore. Sad but necessary.

[strawdog65]

I keep Some people on Perm-Ignore. Sad but necessary.

 

 

Alfred,

 

I am sorry to hear that. From your posts that I have read, I think you have

contributed a very strong viewpoint that is based on much experience

and knowledge gained from years of being immersed in something

few of us will ever have the opportunity to do. Living in China...

I can barely imagine how your perspective is so different from those of

us who are struggling to take off our blinders and really see the world

with an unflinching eye.

 

Try clearing the air with whomever is so combative ... let them know

you have a separate viewpoint, but are not interested in the wasting of

valuable effort and energy being in contention with them. There is

always the opportunity to learn from opposing views, there is no

need for either side to be a winner. Both sides win when something

is gained by the understanding of living without needless animosity.

 

The most wonderful thing we can all share... is our individual view

of the magnificent world we live in. Agreement is not necessary,

accepting that everyone has their own view of what's going on is

the beauty of being open and curious without judging .

 

Give it a go, see if you can make it work.

Consider it just another challenge to be puzzled out.

 

Peace!

[rene]

Strawdog - apparantly you have some contention with Alfred's choices and methods? Perhaps you have a need to 'win' him over to your way of doing things.

[strawdog65]

Strawdog - apparantly you have some contention with Alfred's choices and methods? Perhaps you have a need to 'win' him over to your way of doing things.

 

 

Rene.... I will always concede, especially if i'm expected...to win

 

 

Peace!

[Sloppy Zhang]

Rene.... I will always concede, especially if i'm expected...to win

 

 

Peace!

 

I wouldn't say that, as sticking to such a strategy prevents you from changing as the situation calls for it

[strawdog65]

I wouldn't say that, as sticking to such a strategy prevents you from changing as the situation calls for it

 

 

Hi Sloppy Zhang!

 

I tire of contending that contention is unnecessarily contentious.

 

As Kojak was fond of saying: " Who loves ya' sloppy?"....

 

Peace!

[Birch]

Sounds wonderful.

 

My parents used to always agree with each other and never have arguments between themselves -- they teamed up against me instead. Did you and your dad gang up on your mom by any chance? or a sibling of yours?..

 

 

Wow, mine too, when I was much younger. In fact I can say that throughout my entire childhood and some way into what followed, no-one ever took my defense in anything. So later on when I realized that this "ganging up" thing seemed to be a source of strength, I would find subtle ways to team up with my father against my mother (on very specific topics) but he would ultimately shift the blame for "making mom upset" to me when things got rough.

 

Hopefully I'm not doing it to anyone here in this forum (the "ganging up" thing) and that my well-considered arguments are well-received (if not always agreed with ) and the ill-considered ones understood as such.

[Trickster_Crow]

there is nothing to win. In the book how to win friends and influence people they say that arguing is one of the fastest ways to losing a friendship.

Edited December 12, 2010 by Trickster_Crow