[TTC Study] Chapter 8 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Apech]

Yuck! My cat just did that on a rug. She can be excused though as she is sick.

 

Yeah, "'go with' their own nature" is valid, I think. The biggest problem I have with the word 'follow' is that it connotes some form of dogma that one is 'following'. Too close to religion for my pleasure.

 

Hair balls maybe .... the cat not you !!!! :lol::lol:

 

Yes that religious type of following ... like following a messiah is pure contrivance ... people want something, power, money, health and think they can get it by pretending to be a slave. Of course they don't mean it ... and any good messiah would tell them to stop and find their own way.

[majc]

Oh, oh. Majc is getting frisky. Hehehe.

Never underestimate the power of word jitsu in bringing clarity.

 

 

But yes, there is a difference between the flow of Tao and the flow of man.

Is there?

[Marblehead]

Never underestimate the power of word jitsu in bringing clarity.

 

Hehehe.

 

Is there?

 

I think so, yes.

 

Please keep in mind that I do not believe in a conscious universe or a conscious Tao.

 

Let's look at the flow of Tao first. Tao functions without intent. Tao does only those things it must do in accordance with its own nature. Tao functions without alterior purpose - it just does what needs be done and that is all. It take no pride or shame in anything it does. (Yes, there are some, but very few, people who have attained this state of essence.)

 

Man, on the other hand, almost always functions with intent. Man oftentimes goes against his/her own nature because of desires and goals they have set in life. Man so very often functions with alterior motive. And all so often we do things in excess. Oh, we take great pride in our successes. And we oftentimes deny our failures.

 

Now, I will suggest that there is no difference between the flow of Tao and the flow of a lion.

 

The 'higher' animals though, like many ape and ocean mammals, oftentimes take courses that are agains our natural flow thereby making life a little harded for us.

[majc]

Now, I will suggest that there is no difference between the flow of Tao and the flow of a lion.

 

The 'higher' animals though, like many ape and ocean mammals, oftentimes take courses that are agains our natural flow ...

Nah, I think we're natural too.

 

 

... thereby making life a little harded for us.

And easier.

[Marblehead]

Nah, I think we're natural too.

 

 

 

And easier.

 

Wow! You covered both those bases with short answers. Hehehe.

 

I sometimes argue the side you are supporting right now.

 

It is so nice to be flexible.

[majc]

I sometimes argue the side you are supporting right now.

But I didn't support any side...

 

 

Nah, I think we're natural too.

[zerostao]

the attitude of the taoist is not a nihilistic one , but rather a proper adjustment

derived from the highest level of inner serenity.(after the transformation of his/her

whole being)(unity) this inner serenity creates and speaks of unlimited potentialities.

in other words, we reach the ground where all creativity springs forth when we become aware

of this> deep underlying harmony.

 

the daily lives of those individuals who have achieved such an inner experience

(enlightenment) does not differ from those of ordinary men.

[spiraltao]

the attitude of the taoist is not a nihilistic one , but rather a proper adjustment

derived from the highest level of inner serenity.(after the transformation of his/her

whole being)(unity) this inner serenity creates and speaks of unlimited potentialities.

in other words, we reach the ground where all creativity springs forth when we become aware

of this> deep underlying harmony.

 

the daily lives of those individuals who have achieved such an inner experience

(enlightenment) does not differ from those of ordinary men.

 

 

 

 

:excl: :excl: :excl:

 

 

 

This really stirkes a chord with me, zerostao! I had a few years of really nihilistic type living. This was very counterproductive to my whole life, though at the time, for some strange reason I thought it was OK.

 

 

 

Bottom line for me in regards to nihilism it is extremely counterproductive to most any positive influence. That was just my case, though.

 

 

 

 

Zerostao, I am of your debt for many years to come for simply suggesting this site! I have really learned about a daoism and have become quite confused with some of these topics. ...but a journey of a thousand miles begins with just one step.

 

 

...since I have began seeking my dao (is this the correct way to put it, cuz that is the best way I know how to describe it), I do see how the baby step method is the ONLY way to tackle it with a real understanding and to get the most benefits! Same with baguazhang! What I was getting at is that even though some of these accomplishments are baby steps, I seem to reap benefits ten fold, ya know?

 

 

 

At any rate I will end this ramble.

[Marblehead]

:excl: :excl: :excl:

 

At any rate I will end this ramble.

 

Nice rambling.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 8 - Be Virtuous like Water

 

Translation in terse English:

1. High virtue like water.

2. Water is good at benefiting all things without contend.

3. Attend places where people disgusted.

4. Hence, water is similar to Tao.

5. Dwell in good selectable places,

6. Good deep in the heart with peace and kind to others,

7. Spoken words with trust,

8. Rule with benevolence,

9. Conduct affairs with best ability,

10.Take action in a timely manner,

11.Therefore, only by not contending,

12.Thus no resentment.

 

1. 上善若水。

2. 水善利萬物而不爭，

3. 處眾人之所惡，

4. 故幾於道。

5. 居善地，

6. 心善淵與善仁，

7. 言善信，

8. 正善治，

9. 事善能，

10.動善時。

11.夫唯不爭，

12.故無尤。

[Marblehead]

Yep. That one is clunky. Hehehe.

 

I do like the phrase "no resentment" though (line 12).

 

Winning brings on resentment. If we do not compete there is no winner therefore there is no resentment (well, most of the time).

[ChiDragon]

Yep. That one is clunky. Hehehe.

 

I do like the phrase "no resentment" though (line 12).

 

Winning brings on resentment. If we do not compete there is no winner therefore there is no resentment (well, most of the time).

Well, we must look at both sides of the story as LaoTze does. If we do not compete there is no winner and looser, therefore there is no resentment(all the time).

[Marblehead]

... therefore there is no resentment(all the time).

 

No. I have found that in life there are those who resent a person for being able to do a good job at something they are not capable of doing. No competition there but still resentment.

[ChiDragon]

No. I have found that in life there are those who resent a person for being able to do a good job at something they are not capable of doing. No competition there but still resentment.

Oh.....Ok

He was not Wu Wei.

 

BTW

I was speaking on the behave for LaoTze in a virtuous manner. It was pure philosophical excluding non Taoist thinking. Anyway, as a rule of thumb, when I discuss philosophy I abide myself within all the definitions in an ideal condition to avoid any misunderstand and avoid constantly defending my justification. Sometimes, I know it is hard to do so because we do not think the same.

[Marblehead]

Oh.....Ok

He was not Wu Wei.

 

BTW

I was speaking on the behave for LaoTze in a virtuous manner. It was pure philosophical excluding non Taoist thinking. Anyway, as a rule of thumb, when I discuss philosophy I abide myself within all the definitions in an ideal condition to avoid any misunderstand and avoid constantly defending my justification. Sometimes, I know it is hard to do so because we do not think the same.

 

Yes, I know that you try to stayas close as possible to the TTC when discussing it. I feel it is necessary for me to point out observations I have had in life while discussing the philosophy because I feel the philosophy must be livable. I feel Taoism is but there are exceptions in my life and path.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, I know that you try to stayas close as possible to the TTC when discussing it. I feel it is necessary for me to point out observations I have had in life while discussing the philosophy because I feel the philosophy must be livable. I feel Taoism is but there are exceptions in my life and path.

Specific cases are different from ideal conditions. It is because specific cases do not fall in the ideal cases. Thus we cannot use a specific case to shoot down the whole ideal philosophical system.

 

PS...

It would be getting monotonous if this specific/ideal case showdown is constantly at large.

Edited June 25, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Specific cases are different from ideal conditions. It is because specific cases do not fall in the ideal cases. Thus we cannot use a specific case to shoot down the whole ideal philosophical system.

 

PS...

It would be getting monotonous if this specific/ideal case showdown is constantly at large.

 

Yep. Ideals are great. They give us something to work toward. They even offer us light when otherwise we see only darkness.

 

But even ideals change because everything changes, no exceptions. So we take the path of our ideals and enjoy the journey even though our ideals are never attained.

 

And it is true, ideals get corrupted by reality. But that does not make them any the less valuable.

[ChiDragon]

Yep. Ideals are great. They give us something to work toward. They even offer us light when otherwise we see only darkness.

 

But even ideals change because everything changes, no exceptions. So we take the path of our ideals and enjoy the journey even though our ideals are never attained.

 

And it is true, ideals get corrupted by reality. But that does not make them any the less valuable.

IMO Ideals do not change. We are only working with reality to reach our ideals. Indeed, as you said, ideals are only corrupted by reality.

[Marblehead]

IMO Ideals do not change.

 

You are still a young man (I am assuming you are a man as opposed to being a woman) but I am sure that in time even your ideals will change. Change makes no exceptions.

 

But you go ahead on and don't let my marbleheadedness alter your ideals.

[ChiDragon]

You are still a young man (I am assuming you are a man as opposed to being a woman) but I am sure that in time even your ideals will change. Change makes no exceptions.

 

But you go ahead on and don't let my marbleheadedness alter your ideals.

Thanks, you won't alter my ideals. My head is harder than marble...

 

If you follow someone else's ideal, then it cannot be changed. Like I'm following LaoTze's. If you follow your own ideal and doesn't work, then, you make change it as time goes along.

 

 

BTW........who sets your ideals....???

[Marblehead]

Thanks, you won't alter my ideals. My head is harder than marble...

 

If you follow someone else's ideal, then it cannot be changed. Like I'm following LaoTze's. If you follow your own ideal and doesn't work, then, you make change it as time goes along.

 

BTW........who sets your ideals....???

 

I don't think I have any ideals. Acceptable is generally good enough for me.

 

True what you say about following someone else's ideals especially if that person is no longer in the physical plane. But our understanding of what was said will change and therefore our ideals will change as well.

 

Hehehe. Are we having fun playing this game?

[dust]

Well...I've been trying, slowly, to evolve my own translation of the DDJ, and decided the other day to base it on the Mawangdui text (because why not?), so have had to change a couple of things from the little amount I already had done.

 

For my own reasons, I've started not at the beginning, but with chapter 8.

 

There are some problems (of course). I shall embolden the differences from the received text, and highlight problematic bits in red, with discussion below. Feedback is welcome (feel free to comment on any of it).

 

 

 

上善若水 The highest good is like water.

水善利萬物而有靜 Water benefits all things and is serene,¹

居眾人之所惡 Occupying places that men cannot abide;

故幾於道矣 In this way it is close to the Dao.

居善地 The goodness of a home depends on the earth,

心善淵 The goodness of a heart depends on its depth,

予善天 My goodness depends on the heavens,²

言善信 The goodness of one's word depends on trust,

正善治 Justice depends on good governance,³

事善能 A job well done depends on one’s ability,

動善時 The good of an action depends on timing;

夫唯不爭故無尤 When a man ceases to strive, he finds himself⁴

 

 

 

1. Instead of "does not strive", the MWD has 有静 -- "is serene/tranquil".

The Chinese seems to say something more than that, though: the character being made up of 青 vivid, and 争 struggle/pull, the original meaning was apparently to "think vividly and pull at truth". With these radicals, this version of serenity implies some kind of internal struggle, to me.

The English, I'm not so sure. "Serene“ and ”tranquil“ have no such roots.

 

2. 予善天: Comparing the MWD and received versions, 予 and 与 share the meaning "to give", but I've had difficulty understanding how giving relates to 天 the heavens. An alternate meaning of 予 is "me", which makes more sense in my head, though I can't say either version really makes sense to me in relation to heaven (仁 benevolence made so much more sense)

 

3. Justice? Governance? Government? Rule? etc?

 

4. "...he finds himself": I quite like this translation, though not literal. It seems nobody agrees on a translation: Giafu has "No fight: No blame" whilst Addiss has "Only do not contend, And you will not go wrong" -- neither is necessarily wrong, going by the various meanings of 尤 (blame/fault/outstanding/wrongdoing/especially), yet I'm not sure why we'd be talking about “blame", "fault", or "wrongdoing"...?

 

5. You'll notice that I've highlighted "goodness" in each line, as I'm still not sure of the best way to approach 善. I see much discussion on this in the posts above, and none of the translations I've seen so far really do it for me. These 3-character phrases are so vague, and a couple so abstract, it seems that the English should be equally vague, so that each person can come up with their own interpretation...

 

 

Oh, and here is the MWD text on Baidu

[Marblehead]

The only comment I will make at the moment is to your Line 2.

 

"Water benefits all things and is serene,"

 

I'm not arguing teh translation because I cannot read Chinese.

 

Water is not always serene. Rain storms raise cane with the planet and its plants and animals. However, it does not strive; it is only following its Tzujan.

 

If you used " does not strive" then you would also have a link between Line 2 and Line 12 With a reading of:

 

2. Water benefits all things and does not strive

12. When a man does not strive he finds himself.

 

But regardless, I enjoyed reading your translation.

[ChiDragon]

居善地 The goodness of a home depends on the earth,

 

 

居: live

善: good

地: earth; land; place

 

"Live in a good place" is a more proper translation.

Edited August 28, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts db. It's always wonderfully thought provoking to consider the implications of the original characters of the DDJ. I hadn't looked the MWD text for this chapter yet.

 

 

1. Instead of "does not strive", the MWD has 有静 -- "is serene/tranquil".

The Chinese seems to say something more than that, though: the character being made up of 青 vivid, and 争 struggle/pull, the original meaning was apparently to "think vividly and pull at truth". With these radicals, this version of serenity implies some kind of internal struggle, to me.

The English, I'm not so sure. "Serene“ and ”tranquil“ have no such roots.

 

青 ching, according to a book I have by Rose Quong, is also used as part of the word for "please; to invite; please help yourself; after you," and is said to be part of it because the sound of the word is very pleasant, I suppose just as the colour (青 = green / blue / black) is, which evokes the colour of a lake under the moonlight to me, perhaps because it also has "moon" as part of the word.

 

So this inviting word with "contend" became "not contend" in the Heshangong and Wang Bi texts. Perhaps "still/serene" was being signified as something like "pleasantry in the face of contention" - an image of being calm and open in the face of contention = serenity?

 

This may be signified in the lines

 

水善利萬物而有靜

The goodness of water (is found in that it) serenely benefits all things.

 

居眾人之所惡

Staying in the places that others detest

 

After all, being serene in the face of contention (not contending) would certainly be a place that other's don't want to stay, and may perhaps be required to go to those places as well .

 

Also, remember that the chapter closes with

 

夫唯不爭故無尤

So, when not in contention, there is no fault or blame.

 

2. 予善天: Comparing the MWD and received versions, 予 and 与 share the meaning "to give", but I've had difficulty understanding how giving relates to 天 the heavens. An alternate meaning of 予 is "me", which makes more sense in my head, though I can't say either version really makes sense to me in relation to heaven (仁 benevolence made so much more sense)

 

Here is my translation of Chapter Eight, MWD text:

 

 

上善若水

The highest good is like water

 

水善利萬物而有靜

The goodness of water (is found in that it) serenely benefits all things.

 

居眾人之所惡

Staying in the places that others detest

 

故幾於道矣.

Thereby it is very close to Dao

 

居善地

The goodness of immobility is found in the earth

 

心善渊

The heart's goodness is found in it's depth

 

予善天

The goodness of giving is found in Heaven (giving water, sunlight, air)

 

言善信

The goodness of words is found in sincerity

 

正善治

The goodness of uprightness is found in good and just order

 

事善能

The goodness of duties is found in ability

 

动善时

The goodness of movement and change is found in timing

 

夫唯不爭故無尤

So, when not in contention, there is no fault or blame.

 

(my translations)

 

3. Justice? Governance? Government? Rule? etc?

 

This sometimes appears in sentences just to mean "and then" or "and thus" meaning that things are ordered this way.

 

4. "...he finds himself": I quite like this translation, though not literal. It seems nobody agrees on a translation: Giafu has "No fight: No blame" whilst Addiss has "Only do not contend, And you will not go wrong" -- neither is necessarily wrong, going by the various meanings of 尤 (blame/fault/outstanding/wrongdoing/especially), yet I'm not sure why we'd be talking about “blame", "fault", or "wrongdoing"...?

 

This may show influence from the I Ching lines which sometimes close with "there is blame/reproach" or "there is no blame.reproach." Remember that, especially in that time period, blame/reproach might be followed by severe consequences.

 

5. You'll notice that I've highlighted "goodness" in each line, as I'm still not sure of the best way to approach 善. I see much discussion on this in the posts above, and none of the translations I've seen so far really do it for me. These 3-character phrases are so vague, and a couple so abstract, it seems that the English should be equally vague, so that each person can come up with their own interpretation...

 

 

Oh, and here is the MWD text on Baidu

 

I agree that the lines seem intentionally "open," perhaps as a sort of wu-wei poetic device if you will.

 

There is an interesting correlation between the lines when shan is translated as kindness as well (my personal practice discussion on that).