[TTC Study] Chapter 8 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Taoist Texts]

Wuh.. huh....

 

For that to be the original, and assuming that meaning really was implied, certainly changes the original intent of the chapter.

i understand that we are well of throdden path here, so for a perspective consider that this could be about a cosmic feng-shui.under great open sky..'regulate the unruly waters and the rest of the cosm will follow suit". Also 治 is not the only ref to controlling waters...不爭 or 有靜 also is. Water is not struggling or is calm only when contained, otherwise it is quite an unruly element , you know.

 

fengshui.about.com/od/gardenfengshui/qt/feng-shui-garden-water.htm

Feng Shui of the Water Element in Your Garden

Generally, it is good feng shui to have the water flow towards the house...

 

 

 

Edited August 30, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

I'm glad I wasn't supposed to understand that.

yet understand you will kind sir.

 

夫

1. ​ (literary) initial particle which introduces a topic  [quotations ▼]

Usage notes[edit]

Not used as an independent character in modern Chinese. Only found in compounds.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%A4%AB#Particle

[dawei]

The highest governance is that of managing the waterworks. When the water is well managed it is benefitting everything and being subdued – does not contend, then the people should be made to reside (along the borders of it) 所亞, and the nation will be close to Dao. Once the residence is on that land (along the managed water), then the hearts will be good at being deep, the words good with sincerity, the punishments 正 will be good for governance, the affairs will good with possibility (of being done), the actions will be good according to seasons. Only because now (after the waters have been strictly subdued) there is no contention – there will be no fault.

 

I've thought about this line a little bit in the past (more about governing/politics/rulership) as 治水 is used in many ancient text to describe managing the waterworks and even talk of Yu the Great controlling the floods. And Laozi is generally 'down to earth'. But for me, it just reads a little too Confucian for my taste but it is an interesting angle .

 

 

If someone wants to read a paper on the Guodian and Rulership, see:

 

AN INVESTIGATION INTO THE GUODIAN LAOZI

[dust]

夫

1. ​ (literary) initial particle which introduces a topic  [quotations ▼]

 

Ah. I found a Chinese entry which very much agrees.

 

　1. 文言发语词：～天地者。

　2. 文言助词：逝者如斯～。

　3. 文言指示代词，相当于“这”或“那”：～猫至。

 

I see, I see. Even so, directly translated it can simply be: "Without struggle, no fault/blame", right?

[ChiDragon]

11. 夫唯不爭，
12. 故無尤

11.Therefore(夫), only by not contending,
12.Then, no resentment.

FYI.....
Commonly, 夫 was known as a male adult or a brave man or a big hero.

夫 is very classical term known as "therefore"; "thus"; "hence" if the character was putted in front of a phrase. Most people do not understand the Chinese classic will have trouble in the translation of the term. .

Edited August 30, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Yes, very interesting angle mr. TT (Sorry, just can't call anybody Taiost Canon, nor "the Bible").

 

While I think the usual way of trying to translate it is the first intended meaning, this may be an example of "as above so below" in regard to De.

 

All things align with the course, the tendencies, the pattern, the regularities, the directions, of true Virtue, shan De if you will. To me, this is what Dao is. The way that conforms to Mysterious Virtue.

[Taoist Texts]

I see, I see. Even so, directly translated it can simply be: "Without struggle, no fault/blame", right?

 

 

sure. no harm - no foul.

 

 

Character: 治

Character (單一漢字)

English Senses For (英文): zhi4

control / to govern / to manage / to rule / to regulate / to harness (a river) / the seat of the local government / to treat (a disease) / to cure / to study / to research / to punish / peaceful and orderly / a Chinese family name

 

From water 氵水 and phonetic 台. Originally to prevent flooding by water. Now to regulate.

 

Edited August 30, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Taoist Texts]

告子下:

白圭曰：「丹之治水也愈於禹。」 Gaozi II:

Bai Gui said, 'My management of the waters is superior to that of Yu.'

孟子曰：「子過矣。禹之治水，水之道也。是故禹以四海為壑，今吾子以鄰國為壑。水逆行，謂之洚水。洚水者，洪水也，仁人之所惡也。吾子過矣。」

Mencius replied, 'You are wrong, Sir. Yu's regulation of the waters was according to the laws of water. He therefore made the four seas their receptacle, while you make the neighbouring States their receptacle. Water flowing out of its channels is called an inundation. Inundating waters are a vast waste of water, and what a benevolent man detests. You are wrong, my good Sir.'

 

《告子下 - Gaozi II》 Edited December 27, 2014 by Taoist Texts

[Marblehead]

So which is "better"? To allow water to take its natural destructive path or to regulate the water to benefit all?

[dawei]

So which is "better"? To allow water to take its natural destructive path or to regulate the water to benefit all?

 

It gets messy when we start using words like 'natural destructive path' but I know the meaning and don't disagree on the point being made...

 

But we have to look at the effect of external influences... when the water on its own will curve out valleys, erode banks, flow downhill, etc...

 

Add in man... now the system and influences imposed on water change... as man tries to harness water to its use.

 

Then add in grown populations, city-states, developments, etc. The sphere wherein water exists changes and is manipulated to other use.

 

In the end, the most efficient use will be to harness water according to the laws of water.

[rene]

So which is "better"? To allow water to take its natural destructive path or to regulate the water to benefit all?

 

Better for who/what ?

 

Better for the humans who could utilize it for their benefit?

 

Better for the natural ecosystem as part of the cycle of cleansing and re-growth? (like prairie fires) ?

 

I like when actions & ideas make things better for me.

 

But I don't pretend that what benefits me - doesn't also take away from someone/something else.

 

Its not possible to cause only benefit; its not possible to cause only harm.

 

Such is the Way of Tao.

[Marblehead]

I wish I had something with which to respond to that but I am without words.

[dawei]

I wish I had something with which to respond to that but I am without words.

 

Sometimes it takes words to say one is wordless... and other times it is wordy explanation of wordlessness...

 

In any case, I think ZZ would be laughing not at us... but with us...

[Marblehead]

 

In any case, I think ZZ would be laughing not at us... but with us...

Well, at least we have caused him laughter. That's good.

[Taoist Texts]

So which is "better"? To allow water to take its natural destructive path or to regulate the water to benefit all?

I think what Mencius meant was that if you regulate water according to its nature (does not matter whether we view it as destructive or nourishing) then and only then that would benefit all. And if you go counter that nature there will be no lasting benefits.

 

I qioted him largely to show that this chapter 8 was not metaphorical but a litera discussion of water projects, just as Mencius' dialog is.

[Marblehead]

I think what Mencius meant was that if you regulate water according to its nature (does not matter whether we view it as destructive or nourishing) then and only then that would benefit all. And if you go counter that nature there will be no lasting benefits.

 

I qioted him largely to show that this chapter 8 was not metaphorical but a litera discussion of water projects, just as Mencius' dialog is.

Agree. There are many things we can do in life that benefit many without interfering with the natural flow of the planet's nature. To use but not destroy. We use Tao and it is never exhausted. If we use the planet's resources properly they will never be exhausted either thereby benefiting future generations.