[TTC Study] Chapter 8 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Aaron]

Hello folks,

 

Sorry about the delay in posting. I will post nine tomorrow on schedule. I hadn't realized it had been three days. Apologies. With no further delay here is chapter Eight.

 

(Translated by John C. H. Wu)

 

THE highest form of goodness is like water.

Water knows how to benefit all things without

striving with them.

It stays in places loathed by all men.

Therefore, it comes near the Tao.

 

In choosing your dwelling, know how to keep to

the ground.

In cultivating your mind, know how to dive in

the hidden deeps.

In dealing with others, know how to be gentle and kind.

In speaking, know how to keep your words.

In governing, know how to maintain order.

In transacting business, know how to be efficient.

In making a move, know how to choose the right

moment.

 

If you do not strive with others,

You will be free from blame.

 

 

 

(Translated by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

 

The highest good is like water.

Water give life to the ten thousand things and does not strive.

It flows in places men reject and so is like the Tao.

In dwelling, be close to the land.

In meditation, go deep in the heart.

In dealing with others, be gentle and kind.

In speech, be true.

In ruling, be just.

In daily life, be competent.

In action, be aware of the time and the season.

 

No fight: No blame.

 

 

 

(Translated by Robert G. Henricks)

 

1. The highest good is like water;

2. Water is good at benefiting the ten thousand things and yet it [does not] compete [with them].

3. It dwells in places the masses of people detest,

4. Therefore it is close to the Way.

 

5. In dwelling, the good thing is the land;

6. In the mind, the good thing is depth;

7. In giving, the good thing is [being like] Heaven;

8. In speaking, the good thing is sincerity;

9. In governing, the good thing is order;

10. In affairs, the good thing is ability;

11. In activity, the good thing is timeliness.

 

12. It is only because it does not compete, that therefore it is without fault.

 

 

-----------

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

It is rare that I prefer the Feng/English translation over other but here the first three lines, I think, is the clearest description.

 

The remaining lines is a toss-up between Wu and Henricks but as I am prejudiced toward Henricks I think his word choices are better defining of the concepts.

[manitou]

Yutang's version starts out 'The best of men is like water; water benefits all things and does not compete with them...."

 

What this may be saying is that in order for man to become like water, to achieve the lowly, is to become capable of diminishing ego. When we are diminished in ego, we have no need to contend, because we are not trying to stand on our tiptoes and be something higher or taller than we really are. The Tao doesn't tell you how to diminish ego, but it writes of the results often enough. The valley of the female, the Yin, the receptive, and the 'lowly', as in the context here, all seem to go together and are the result of many years of non-contention and (the painful process of) ego reduction. Ergo, the Sage. We can either go the easy way or the hard way. We can voluntarily search out those buttons that make us CONTEND (oftentimes here in this discussion forum) and eliminate them through mindful processes of our own; or we can surrender to Life and have it put us in whatever position it thinks we need to file the buttons down for us. It works either way; it's just that the first way is more expedient, less costly, and doesn't usually end up with you on the floor wondering what happened.

[rene]

This always seemed to be a pretty straight forward chapter - but one line in it snagged me when I was involved with Wayne Wang on his work.

 

Wu: In choosing your dwelling, know how to keep to the ground.

Feng/English:In dwelling, be close to the land.

Henricks: In dwelling, the good thing is the land;

 

Dr. Wang translates this line as: In dwelling, best by adapting to the place.

 

- which would seem to be more useful as not everyone can 'go live in the country' generally speaking.

 

I've wondered since then about that line; if the usual translations are repetitions of convenience - or if Dr Wang took liberties, albeit useful imo, in this line of his rendition.

 

What say you?

[Marblehead]

 

What say you?

 

I can't say anything right now because you now have more to say. Hehehe.

[cheya]

[rene]

I can't say anything right now because you now have more to say. Hehehe.

Indeedy I do thanks to you!

 

The footnote to that line in the Wang rendition reads:

 

The best way to live is to fit into the place, without interrupting or disrupting the place. Otherwise, we should be contending with nature. The same interpretation follows throughout the chapter.

 

Ok, marblehead, your turn. Whatcha think?

[rene]

Most translations of the second part of this chapter don't sit very well with me. Seems like they're saying how to be good, what to work at, how to change yourself in small pieces, which to me seems very un-tao-like. Liao's translation and explanation in Nine Nights suits me because it always reminds me that my only real task is to reconnect to Tao.

 

(...)

 

I appreciate Liao's relentless emphasis on connecting back to the power of Tao, rather than relying on specific (self-motivated) actions, which seem so much like following social virtue (doing what's good). Rather than having to TRY to do things right (eg kind words, good government), Liao says all these beneficial outcomes flow effortlessly when you have merged with the power of Tao. Although the outcomes (eg kind words, good government) may appear to be the same, they emerge from very different processes. Unlike an outcome hinging on your own virtuous action (doing), the water-like flow of the power of Tao carries you naturally to the most beneficial outcome (non doing).

 

 

Cheya, our perspectives seem to run parallel. I wonder if others who have been exposed to Liao have a similar take, or if this is a case of confirmation of, or resonance with, what is already sensed.

 

Your putting Liao's translations in the threads is very appreciated; gives much for comparison and thought.

 

warm regards

[Marblehead]

 

The best way to live is to fit into the place, without interrupting or disrupting the place. Otherwise, we should be contending with nature. The same interpretation follows throughout the chapter.

 

Ok, marblehead, your turn. Whatcha think?

 

Oh, I totally agree.

 

Those lines from Dr. Wang's Dynamic Tao, Chapter 8, 4 - 11:

 

In dwelling, best by adapting to the place.

In heart, best by showing its vastness.

In giving, best with benevolence.

In words, best with trustwortyiness.

For rectification, best by justice.

In serving, best with ability.

In action, best with timeliness.

Only by not contending,

one invites no resentment.

 

So yes, there is a natural, best, flow to all these concepts.

 

Adapting to the place is important in my life because during my life in the military I did try to do this wherever I was stationed and I can honestly say that I never had any problems with the people of the defferent parts of the world I visited because I adapted to them as opposed to trying to get them to adapt to me.

[Marblehead]

Most translations ...

 

Thanks for the post. I agree that the Tao Te Ching is more of a guidebook rather than a book of dogma.

 

The only thing that I know of that could be a dogmatic instruction in Taoism is that we should observe the processes in nature and try to emulate these processes. Following that, all actions should have their roots in the 'three treasures'.

[rene]

... Following that, all actions should have their roots in the 'three treasures'.

Sure, but only if those roots blazingly pierce right through those three clever treasures and settle in the nature of Tao. Can ya tell I'm looking forward to that chapter's discussion?

 

 

 

 

p.s..tks for posting the rest of Wang's rendition, and for the pm re the footnote. I shoulda kept a copy of the book.

[Marblehead]

Sure, but only if those roots blazingly pierce right through those three clever treasures and settle in the nature of Tao. Can ya tell I'm looking forward to that chapter's discussion?

 

Hehehe. Yeah, that will be fun since I still hold to my Nietzschian slant. But it will be fun none-the-less.

 

I shoulda kept a copy of the book.[/i]

 

Yeah, you shoulda. 'Specially since your name is in it.

[strawdog65]

Another version:

 

By Hua-Ching Ni

From the complete works of Lao Tzu.

 

=========================================

8

 

 

One of universal nature is like water;

he benefits all things but does not contend with them.

He unprotestingly takes the lowest position;

thus, he is close to the universal truth.

 

One of universal virtue chooses to live

in a suitable environment.

He attunes his mind to become profound.

He deals with others with kindness.

In his speech, he is sincere.

His rule brings about order.

His work is efficient.

His actions are opportune.

 

One of deep virtue does not contend with people;

thus, he is above reproach.

 

============================================

 

 

Hello everyone!

 

This is one of my favorite chapters/verses.

 

I agree with many of the comments placed concerning not contending,

and fitting in with the place you are at and what is transpiring at the moment.

 

This version by Hua Ching Ni, is to me, most especially about

finding the position of most virtue within the given situation,

and act without causing strife to yourself or others unless it is necessary.

 

There is the commentary about not being wasteful in our actions,

and the sage having the wisdom to see the opportunities which are

present, and then act accordingly with necessary virtue towards others.

 

Also there is the idea of coexistence and doing so with a modicum

of action, because sometimes in-action is what's most needed.

Knowing when enough is just that, when it comes to our

actions and the effects of those actions.

 

Having such high virtue towards all things,

the practitioner of Tao will naturally exist in a state

of openness and impartiality, and as such who is to be argued with?

 

 

Peace!

Edited December 13, 2010 by strawdog65

[rene]

Another version:

 

By Hua-Ching Ni

 

 

Hi strawdog, thanks for posting that! I'd not heard of Hua-Ching Ni, so google to the rescue, and found a rather interesting short discussion about Master Ni in the DIO forum. Well worth the brief read, imo, as it includes posts from a Shaolin (about 10 posts in).

 

Ni is not my cup of tea, but there is room for everyone at this table and I'm glad you joined in. (-:

 

warm regards

 

 

edit: fix link

Edited December 13, 2010 by rene

[Marblehead]

Hi Strawdog,

 

I enjoyed your personal comments in that post above. You hit on a number of very important concepts in it.

 

And yes, thanks for participating in the "Chapter" threads.

[Procurator]

 

Dr. Wang translates this line as: In dwelling, best by adapting to the place.

 

- which would seem to be more useful as not everyone can 'go live in the country' generally speaking.

 

I've wondered since then about that line; if the usual translations are repetitions of convenience - or if Dr Wang took liberties, albeit useful imo, in this line of his rendition.

 

What say you?

Hi rene,

 

yes, comparatively speaking, he hit the nail on the head with that one, 居善地 does indeed mean "dwellings are governed by location". it does not mean the dweller better get used to where he is forced to live, it means rather that when dwellings are constructed the spot is chosen based on landscape and location. you know the old saw in real estate business "location location location". so his translation is indeed closest to the original meaning. the others miss the point entirely.

[dawei]

I have a few issues with this chapter, starting with the first sentence. The idea of 'highest good' always seemed too pat (trite) an opening. And the MWD manuscript has a different character in the third character:

 

WB:

上-善-若-水

Shang-Shan-Ruo-Shui

High-Good-Like-Water

 

MWD:

上-善-治-水

Shang-Shan-Zhi-Shui

High-Good-Order-Water

 

Maybe some ideas might be:

The best measures [are as] orderly [as] water

The best measures govern [as] water

 

----

 

Another issue is that of lines 5-11 (using Hendricks, others may vary a bit); Who or what is the subject? It shifts from translator to translator.

 

Wu = Man

Feng/English = Man

Hendricks = Good [thing]

Liao = Tao and man (?)

Ni = Man (one of universal nature)

 

Although man is used by a few, he is nowhere mentioned. I do find one translation which inserts this idea in the opening line as: "The Superior Good Man is like Water" -- Lok San Ho

 

Also, Line 7, Hendricks ends with "Heaven"; others have "gentleness and kindness" or "benevolence". In the older text it is Heaven but the later text have the core Confucian word, "Ren" (仁), which some may recall from Chapter 5 as "bu ren" (heaven and earth are not benevolent, or are impartial, etc).

 

---

 

Rene, nice that you mentioned that line about 'dwelling'... "keep to the ground" and "close to the land" seems silly nonsense. What is natural for water is an analogy; It has a close connection to earth (地) since it doesn't raise up against gravity; it naturally seeks lower ground.

Edited December 19, 2010 by dawei

[Procurator]

I have a few issues with this chapter, starting with the first sentence. The idea of 'highest good' always seemed too pat (trite) an opening.

Maybe some ideas might be:

The best measures [are as] orderly [as] water

The best measures govern [as] water

 

Hi Dawei congrats on getting very very close to the meaning. To make the last step we have to recall what was the most important task of all archaic civilisations (governments if you will). It was managing water for irrigation and protection from floods.

Note water radical in 治- its not a coincidence.

From Mesopotamia to Egypt to contemporary US with its Corps of Enegineers its is the most crucial task. Specifically in China it was preoccupation of the 3 emperors Xuan, Yu, and Shun.

 

So the water was not trivially good and calm as translators would like us to believe, it was evil and had to be subdued by the common effort of the entire archaic society which cant be done without government. The closest to the underlying story line is

http://ctext.org/excavated-texts?searchu=%E4%B8%8A%E5%96%84%E6%B2%BB%E6%B0%B4

《馬王堆 - Mawangdui》 《老子甲 - Laozi A》 《老子甲道經》

 

 

上善治水。the highest governing is governing waters

水善利萬物而有靜，waters are governed then they benefit all things and become calm

居眾之所惡，then they are contained and amassed deep(惡)

故幾於道矣。and then they become calm (幾) with Dao

居善地，dwellings are governed by location

心善瀟，heart is governed by its deepness

予善信，allowances are governed by trust

正善治，punishments are governed by order

事善能，civil service is governed by capabilities

動善時。actions are governed by timeliness

夫唯不靜，if all of the determinants above not calm

故無尤。 then no results above are superior.

[dawei]

Note water radical in 治- its not a coincidence.

From Mesopotamia to Egypt to contemporary US with its Corps of Enegineers its is the most crucial task. Specifically in China it was preoccupation of the 3 emperors Xuan, Yu, and Shun.

 

So the water was not trivially good and calm as translators would like us to believe, it was evil and had to be subdued by the common effort of the entire archaic society which cant be done without government.

Thanks for that translation. I felt that 'good' was really slight-of-hand for another meaning.

 

yes, this trouble with flood control was all too pervasive in early china. Reminds me of the Gong Gong Shi tribes role as well... http://www.yutopian.com/names/09/9hong.html

[Procurator]

yes, this trouble with flood control was all too pervasive in early china. Reminds me of the Gong Gong Shi tribes role as well... http://www.yutopian.com/names/09/9hong.html

excellent historical reference!

[majc]

Jesus' 2010th birthday party is getting in the way a bit at the moment. I'll be back though.

 

Short version: There's more to life than government. An exclusively government-centric interpretation of every possible aspect of everything isn't wrong. If power and control are the constructs by which you understand yourself and make sense of the world, fantastic. Go for it.

 

TianShi, it sounds like you in particular have given this a lot of thought. I enjoy reading your versions of every chapter, and I maintain that you are constricting the significance of Lao Tzu's words.

 

Happy Christmas everyone.

[xHSG]

[Procurator]

Edited December 21, 2010 by TianShi

[dawei]

[Marblehead]

The bigger parallel I see is that, water follows it's nature thus so should man [follow HIS nature, not necessarily must follow the nature of water]. Each of the ten thousand things have their nature and they follow their nature; although being interconnected on some level their may be parallel's followed but to me the general rule in the DDJ is following one's nature; and Nature is provided in many examples in order to show how it is done.

 

I will agree with this thought.