[TTC Study] Chapter 8 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Harmonious Emptiness]

On further reflection, what I hear from this chapter is how to contend "without contention."

 

In face of contention:

 

start with earth-like stillness, a profound heart, and the giving nature of Heaven. Then, ensure that your words are true, sincere, and from the heart. Do not waver in uprightness, and if actions must be taken, do them with great ability and timing.

[Taoist Texts]

Well...I've been trying, slowly, to evolve my own translation of the DDJ, and decided the other day to base it on the Mawangdui text (because why not?), so have had to change a couple of things from the little amount I already had done.

 

For my own reasons, I've started not at the beginning, but with chapter 8.

 

There are some problems (of course). I shall embolden the differences from the received text, and highlight problematic bits in red, with discussion below. Feedback is welcome (feel free to comment on any of it).

Hey DB, this is a good translation as they go but i do always wonder whats the connection between lines? why are they stringed together in one chapter? why most of them seem trivial like (事善能The goodness of duties is found in ability) or disjointed? i wish translators paid more attention to these issues. But again, a good job.

[dust]

Water is not always serene. Rain storms raise cane with the planet and its plants and animals. However, it does not strive; it is only following its Tzujan.

 

If you used " does not strive" then you would also have a link between Line 2 and Line 12 With a reading of:

 

2. Water benefits all things and does not strive

12. When a man does not strive he finds himself.

 

But regardless, I enjoyed reading your translation.

 

Thanks -- and I agree, water can be violent and destructive (storm, tsunami, rip tide, etc). It's certainly not always serene, which is part of the problem here. But I do want to be as faithful as possible to the text itself. As the Chinese character for serene implies (if only very subtley) a sense of inner struggle, I'd love to find a word or phrase in English which implies both. Failing that, "Does not strive" probably does work better than "Is serene"

 

 

居: live

善: good

地: earth; land; place

 

"Live in a good place" is a more proper translation.

 

I agree, the first/proper translation of 居 is "live/reside", but I would also love to have a sense of continuity with the other 善 lines, which are not all 'verb-adjective-noun':

 

'heart + good + depth/profound'

'give/giving + good + heavens'

'word/speak + good + trust'

'action + good + time/timing'

etc

 

So rather than "live on good land/in a good place", it seems that 居 could be taken as a noun?

[ChiDragon]

I agree, the first/proper translation of 居 is "live/reside", but I would also love to have a sense of continuity with the other 善 lines, which are not all 'verb-adjective-noun':

 

'heart + good + depth/profound'

'give/giving + good + heavens'

'word/speak + good + trust'

'action + good + time/timing'

etc

 

So rather than "live on good land/in a good place", it seems that 居 could be taken as a noun?

 

So, how would you rephrase it to make it a noun,,,,???

Edited August 28, 2014 by ChiDragon

[dust]

Hey DB, this is a good translation as they go but i do always wonder whats the connection between lines? why are they stringed together in one chapter? why most of them seem trivial like (事善能The goodness of duties is found in ability) or disjointed? i wish translators paid more attention to these issues. But again, a good job.

 

Yes, this is a problem. It's something I've been struggling with: in the Chinese, these lines seem quite cohesive. As H.E. has said above (I'll reply to that longest post last!), the chapter seems to contain a meaning along the lines of:

 

"In face of contention, start with earth-like stillness, a profound heart, and the giving nature of Heaven. Then, ensure that your words are true, sincere, and from the heart. Do not waver in uprightness, and if actions must be taken, do them with great ability and timing."

 

However, the text doesn't directly say this. It simply makes some statements about the nature of things in some fairly abstract ways, and leaves us to infer...

[dust]

After all, being serene in the face of contention (not contending) would certainly be a place that other's don't want to stay, and may perhaps be required to go to those places as well .

 

Also, remember that the chapter closes with

 

夫唯不爭故無尤

So, when not in contention, there is no fault or blame.

 

Serene in the face of contention -- this is basically what I'm thinking to get across, yes. Water itself is never actually still; even in a still pool with no ripples, below the surface it's buzzing with energy. Yet when something 'contends' with it, it moves out of the way. It takes the easiest paths, drops to the lowest depths, and still 'triumphs'

 

 

Here is my translation of Chapter Eight, MWD text:

 

上善若水

The highest good is like water

 

水善利萬物而有靜

The goodness of water (is found in that it) serenely benefits all things.

 

居眾人之所惡

Staying in the places that others detest

 

故幾於道矣.

Thereby it is very close to Dao

 

居善地

The goodness of immobility is found in the earth

 

心善渊

The heart's goodness is found in it's depth

 

予善天

The goodness of giving is found in Heaven (giving water, sunlight, air)

 

言善信

The goodness of words is found in sincerity

 

正善治

The goodness of uprightness is found in good and just order

 

事善能

The goodness of duties is found in ability

 

动善时

The goodness of movement and change is found in timing

 

夫唯不爭故無尤

So, when not in contention, there is no fault or blame.

 

(my translations)

 

Some interesting points! Some questions:

1. Why "immobility" ?

2. "goodness of giving found in heaven" -- because heaven supplies us with all, i see..but what do you think of translating 予 as "I/me"?

3. "No fault or blame" -- I need to look deeper into the character 尤, perhaps. Your point about the severity of consequences at that point in time is well received.

 

 

I agree that the lines seem intentionally "open," perhaps as a sort of wu-wei poetic device if you will.

 

There is an interesting correlation between the lines when shan is translated as kindness as well (my personal practice discussion on that).

 

I will look at this post in more depth later. Hadn't noticed it before. Thanks!

[dust]

So, how would you rephrase it to make it a noun,,,,???

 

Ah..well... originally, I've written "The goodness of a home depends on the earth", which I agree isn't ideal. The thing about characters like this is that they are often interchangeably verb or noun, and verses like this seem to use that ambiguity to their advantage: perhaps there is no single translation.

 

As I've seen in above posts, perhaps something like "dwelling", which is similarly inerpretable as noun or verb...?

Edited August 28, 2014 by dustybeijing

[dawei]

Ah..well... originally, I've written "The goodness of a home depends on the earth", which I agree isn't ideal. The thing about characters like this is that they are often interchangeably verb or noun, and verses like this seem to use that ambiguity to their advantage: perhaps there is no single translation.

 

As I've seen in above posts, perhaps something like "dwelling", which is similarly inerpretable as noun or verb...?

 

My main thought was instead of "depends on" to be "is in its relationship to".

 

 

The goodness of a home depends on the earth

 

 

The goodness of a home is in its relationship to the earth

 

There is an element of relative relationships.

[dust]

The goodness of a home is in its relationship to the earth

 

There is an element of relative relationships.

 

Yes! That there is a natural, relative relationship between each one is kind of what I was trying to say before.

 

There is a sense of "You can't build a house in the sky, or communicate with people based on lies", and that perhaps each phrase is a version of the 'vessel and its emptiness' -- you can't have one without the other.

 

At the same time, we might also note that 善 primarily means "good" in the sense of kind or gentle.

 

Just a thought, but perhaps:

 

居善地 Find a home's good in the land

心善淵 Find a heart's good in its depth

予善天 Find my good in the heavens // Find giving's good in the heavens

言善信 Find a word's good in trust

正善治 Find straightness in control

事善能 Find a task's good in one's ability

動善時 Find an action's good in the timing

夫唯不爭故無尤 When a man ceases to strive, he finds....?

[dawei]

Yes! That there is a natural, relative relationship between each one is kind of what I was trying to say before.

 

There is a sense of "You can't build a house in the sky, or communicate with people based on lies", and that perhaps each phrase is a version of the 'vessel and its emptiness' -- you can't have one without the other.

 

Very aptly put

 

There is a causality we observe and most often we talk of Yin and Yang but in fact it is simply the natural, relative relationship like the vessel and its emptiness; the wheel spokes and the empty hub (DDJ11).

 

Dao is an empty vessel... (DDJ4).

 

This classic juxtaposition of contradictions, formless form, is what many love about Laozi.

[ChiDragon]

Ah..well... originally, I've written "The goodness of a home depends on the earth", which I agree isn't ideal. The thing about characters like this is that they are often interchangeably verb or noun, and verses like this seem to use that ambiguity to their advantage: perhaps there is no single translation.

 

As I've seen in above posts, perhaps something like "dwelling", which is similarly inerpretable as noun or verb...?

 

FYI The character 居 is interpretable as noun or verb depends on its loction in the phrase. Please see the examples below:

 

居善地 dwelling in a good place

 

善居地 a good dwelling place

 

地善居 a place is good for dwelling.

 

You see, one must follow the logic in each phrase, in order, to have a proper translation.

 

 

Edited August 28, 2014 by ChiDragon

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Ahh, just lost my post.. so, briefly,

 

Serene in the face of contention -- this is basically what I'm thinking to get across, yes. Water itself is never actually still; even in a still pool with no ripples, below the surface it's buzzing with energy. Yet when something 'contends' with it, it moves out of the way. It takes the easiest paths, drops to the lowest depths, and still 'triumphs'

 

Yes, and see ch. 15 about the seeming randomness of water

 

 

Some interesting points! Some questions:

1. Why "immobility" ?

 

Maybe stillness would be better, but that might have been confusing with "serene" also meaning "stillness."

 

Earth is a common "archetype" for stillness in Taoist parlance.

 

Also, note that "abiding, dwelling" here is sometimes used to refer to a state of mind, like "dwelling in desire." Maybe similar to hippy-slang's "hung up on" something.

 

2. "goodness of giving found in heaven" -- because heaven supplies us with all, i see..but what do you think of translating 予 as "I/me"?

 

iyam, some alternative word meanings may help point to the connection of ideas without having literal weight.

 

 

3. "No fault or blame" -- I need to look deeper into the character 尤, perhaps. Your point about the severity of consequences at that point in time is well received.

 

It was also common in Confucian writing, which was often written as guidance to follow while interacting with (sometimes tyrannical) authority.

[Taoist Texts]

8。

 

《道德經》: 上善若水。水善利萬物而不爭，處衆人之所惡，故幾於道。居善地，心善淵，與善仁，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。

《老子河上公章句·易性》: 上善若水。水善利萬物而不爭，處眾人之所惡，故幾於道。居善地，心善淵，與善仁，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。

 

《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 上善治水。水善利萬物而有靜，居眾之所惡，故幾於道矣。居善地，心善瀟，予善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不靜，故無尤。

 

 

《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 上善如水。水善利萬物而有爭，居眾人之所亞，故幾於道矣。居善地，心善淵，予善天，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。

 

 

 

 

 

I feel that comparison of different versions is helpful for prying out the intrinsic meaning. I do feel that DDJ is written in a formulaic language, so they key is to decipher the code of its bits like 上善如水 vs 上善治水。

[Marblehead]

I feel that comparison of different versions is helpful for prying out the intrinsic meaning. I do feel that DDJ is written in a formulaic language, so they key is to decipher the code of its bits like 上善如水 vs 上善治水。

I have heard that same thing from ChiDragon. I think the two of you are just trying to confuse me. KISS

[dust]

《道德經》: 上善若水。水善利萬物而不爭，處衆人之所惡，故幾於道。居善地，心善淵，與善仁，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。

《老子河上公章句·易性》: 上善若水。水善利萬物而不爭，處眾人之所惡，故幾於道。居善地，心善淵，與善仁，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。

 

《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 上善治水。水善利萬物而有靜，居眾之所惡，故幾於道矣。居善地，心善瀟，予善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不靜，故無尤。

 

 

《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 上善如水。水善利萬物而有爭，居眾人之所亞，故幾於道矣。居善地，心善淵，予善天，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。

 

 

Huh... well don't I feel silly. The "versions" of the MWD I found on the Chinese web are not even close to this... there's a lot more discrepancy than I realised. I've now found the proper excavated versions on ctext. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

Well, if you're up for some more discussion:

 

 

治水 -- this is confusing. 若水 and 如水 seem close enough not to worry about, but 治....control, regulate..? Is there a meaning of 治 even close to "similar/like" ?

 

心善瀟 -- xiao here means “deep and clear", yes? Which would seem a slightly simpler translation than 淵...

 

予善信 -- we seem to have combined 予善天 and 言善信..? In which case, the longer versions would take precedent?

 

有争 -- have I been staring at the screen too long? An exact contradiction of the others??

[dawei]

治水 -- this is confusing. 若水 and 如水 seem close enough not to worry about, but 治....control, regulate..? Is there a meaning of 治 even close to "similar/like" ?

 

I would move more towards the idea of 'harness'.

 

In past discussions on Wu Wei, some have said this is about getting out of the way to let things go their own way...

 

I have argued more for the idea that it is not getting out of they way, it is becoming ONE with anything... Be[come] the Water; Ride the Wave; Harness.

 

Thus: The highest Good is like harnessing Water

 

But in the sense of getting on a horse and riding it and be one unit... but I feel harnessing is not exactly my feeling/picture...

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Keep in mind that the image for govern, 治, refers to water banks governing the flow of water, and is often used to say "this follows (the norms of) that." My understanding of the meaning here is that it suggests that "the highest good conforms to the way of water," which was put more simply as "the highest good is like water."

[Taoist Texts]

Huh... well don't I feel silly. The "versions" of the MWD I found on the Chinese web are not even close to this... there's a lot more discrepancy than I realised. I've now found the proper excavated versions on ctext. Thanks for pointing that out.

 

Well, if you're up for some more discussion:

 

 

治水 -- this is confusing. 若水 and 如水 seem close enough not to worry about, but 治....control, regulate..? Is there a meaning of 治 even close to "similar/like" ?

 

yes, to me control/regulate is the key here.

 

 

One account of the Great Flood is said to have occurred during the reign of Emperor Yao. After the flooding began, ....to build dams, dikes and embankments would eventually gain control of the flood waters. Continuous failing led Shun to banish Gun, his son Yu then taking over the efforts. Yu implemented drainage systems and was thus able to accomplish what his father never could - See more at:

 

http://www.ancient-origins.net/myths-legends/gun-yu-and-chinese-flood-myth-00370#sthash.986ef8XA.dpuf

 

 

So the story arc of this passage starts with a reference to the governing class 上善, being in charge of public works 治水 historically. Then the arc proceeds into water governance serving as a metaphor for governance in general, and ends in a conclusion on a secret of good governance.

[dust]

I have argued more for the idea that it is not getting out of they way, it is becoming ONE with anything... Be[come] the Water; Ride the Wave; Harness.

 

Thus: The highest Good is like harnessing Water

 

But in the sense of getting on a horse and riding it and be one unit... but I feel harnessing is not exactly my feeling/picture...

 

My understanding of the meaning here is that it suggests that "the highest good conforms to the way of water," which was put more simply as "the highest good is like water."

 

yes, to me control/regulate is the key here.

 

Harness, conform, regulate. Interesting. Yes, I think that in the end, "The highest good is like water" is satisfactory for me -- whether one harnesses or conforms with the idea of water, we're still saying essentially the same thing: the way water is is good.

 

Mr Taoist Texts -- Very interesting...the analogy is certainly sound. So are you suggesting that a 治水 'regulatory' translation would be preferable to other versions of the text?

Edited August 29, 2014 by dustybeijing

[Taoist Texts]

Mr Taoist Texts -- Very interesting...the analogy is certainly sound. So are you suggesting that a 治水 'regulatory' translation would be preferable to other versions of the text?

Hi DB, just TT will do lets not stand on the ceremony here;) Yes i think thats the original version, now a scattered puzzle between the 4 received versions.

 

 

 

What is good in a man's sight is evil for a god,

What is evil to a man's mind is good for his god.

Who can comprehend the counsel of the gods in heaven?

The plan of a god is deep waters,

who can fathom of it?

Where has befuddled mankind ever learned what is a god's conduct?

Before Civilization

Between 9000 B.C. and the beginning of the Christian era, western civilization came into being in Egypt and in what historians call Ancient Western Asia (modern-day Cyprus, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Jordan, Turkey, southwestern Russia, Iraq and Iran). The earliest permanent settlements occurred between 9000-6000 B.C. and were accompanied by the domestication of plants and animals. Between 4000-3000 B.C., the first cities appeared in response to the pressures of population growth, the organizational requirements of irrigation

 

http://www.historyguide.org/ancient/lecture2b.html

 

The governance of a nation begins from building irrigation and waterways and remains so (recall The United States Army Corps of Engineers (USACE, also sometimes shortened to CoE) is a U.S. federal agency under the Department of Defense and a major Army command made up of some 36,500 civilian and military personnel,^[1] making it one of the world's largest public engineering, design, and construction management agencies. Although generally associated with dams, canals and flood protection in the United States...)

 

So the original to me goes something like this:

 

上善治水。水善利萬物而不爭， 居眾人之所亞， 故幾於道矣。

居善地，心善淵，予善天，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。

 

The highest governance is that of managing the waterworks. When the water is well managed it is benefitting everything and being subdued – does not contend, then the people should be made to reside (along the borders of it) 所亞, and the nation will be close to Dao. Once the residence is on that land (along the managed water), then the hearts will be good at being deep, the words good with sincerity, the punishments 正 will be good for governance, the affairs will good with possibility (of being done), the actions will be good according to seasons. Only because now (after the waters have been strictly subdued) there is no contention – there will be no fault.

[Marblehead]

Timing and placement are so damn important most times, aren't they?

[dust]

So the original to me goes something like this:

 

上善治水。水善利萬物而不爭， 居眾人之所亞， 故幾於道矣。

居善地，心善淵，予善天，言善信，正善治，事善能，動善時。夫唯不爭，故無尤。

 

The highest governance is that of managing the waterworks. When the water is well managed it is benefitting everything and being subdued – does not contend, then the people should be made to reside (along the borders of it) 所亞, and the nation will be close to Dao. Once the residence is on that land (along the managed water), then the hearts will be good at being deep, the words good with sincerity, the punishments 正 will be good for governance, the affairs will good with possibility (of being done), the actions will be good according to seasons. Only because now (after the waters have been strictly subdued) there is no contention – there will be no fault.

 

Wuh.. huh....

 

For that to be the original, and assuming that meaning really was implied, certainly changes the original intent of the chapter.

 

There some things I'd query, though. Looking directly at the text, the following, simple meanings are apparent to me:

 

水善利万物而不争 Water benefits all (life/things) without struggle"

居众人之所亚 Stay where the masses (of people) [ugly/deformed ==] do not want to"

故几于道 So/therefore close to the Dao"

...

夫唯不爭，故無尤 Man doesn't struggle/strive, so/therefore no fault/blame

 

Reading into it with knowledge of the possible implications I can certainly see where you're coming from, but on the surface -- forgetting the idea that it could be about irrigation -- isn't the only direct reference to controlling water in that character 治? But that one character is important, so... I dunno...

[Taoist Texts]

Timing and placement are so damn important most times, aren't they?

a stitch in time saves nine;)

[Taoist Texts]

Wuh.. huh....

t, the following, simple meanings are apparent to me:

 

 

...

夫唯不爭，故無尤 Man doesn't struggle/strive, so/therefore no fault/blame

夫 at the beg. of a sent. is an intro particle.

[Marblehead]

夫 at the beg. of a sent. is an intro particle.

I'm glad I wasn't supposed to understand that.