Compassion and Taoism

[Marblehead]

Yes. That action of yours may cause him to become a non-stream pisser, to act not will surely not. And you will have exercised your heart's desire...never choose not to...hard sometimes to so choose...but the heart grows cold and hard when one chooses not

 

Hehehe. Good try. And I admire your devotion. As for me? I'm going to get a baseball bat and straighten things out. That will afford me peace of mind. It will clarify the water too.

[Otis]

Several of you have already written parallel statements to this, but I have my own metaphor that I think is worth contributing.

 

Part of the problem, I think, with how "compassion" is taught in the west is that it's in context of a dualistic worldview, and thus relies on some spiritual authority.

 

"Be compassionate towards others." Why? "Because you're supposed to be ..." or "because your virtue will be rewarded" or "because God said so".

 

Collapse the duality, however, and compassion is the only reasonable thing to do.

 

Collapsing the duality does not necessarily mean trying to be other people. It can mean merely being our life. There is no part of me that is not my life; so I am equally correct living as my life, rather than living as me (as if I were a being separate from life). In other words, I am not the discreet concrete organism that needs to endure and survive my life; rather, I am flow, the process of living and growing itself.

 

If I am my life, than I am best served by loving everything within that life. What purpose do I have in resenting the thing that I am?

 

This of course, includes other people in my life. If I hold grudges, resent others, keep people at bay, then I am doing that to my life, as well. The only way to fully embrace my life, is to embrace ALL of my life, all of my experience.

 

Thus compassion is not borne out of duty, shame, or spiritual discipline, but out of exuberance, out of joy for living. How can I not want the best for you, if you are part of my life, and your happiness is reflected in my life?

[Marblehead]

Nice post Otis. Thanks for joining in.

 

(But I'm still going to keep my baseball bat handy.)

[strawdog65]

Several of you have already written parallel statements to this, but I have my own metaphor that I think is worth contributing.

 

Part of the problem, I think, with how "compassion" is taught in the west is that it's in context of a dualistic worldview, and thus relies on some spiritual authority.

 

"Be compassionate towards others." Why? "Because you're supposed to be ..." or "because your virtue will be rewarded" or "because God said so".

 

Collapse the duality, however, and compassion is the only reasonable thing to do.

 

Collapsing the duality does not necessarily mean trying to be other people. It can mean merely being our life. There is no part of me that is not my life; so I am equally correct living as my life, rather than living as me (as if I were a being separate from life). In other words, I am not the discreet concrete organism that needs to endure and survive my life; rather, I am flow, the process of living and growing itself.

 

If I am my life, than I am best served by loving everything within that life. What purpose do I have in resenting the thing that I am?

 

This of course, includes other people in my life. If I hold grudges, resent others, keep people at bay, then I am doing that to my life, as well. The only way to fully embrace my life, is to embrace ALL of my life, all of my experience.

 

Thus compassion is not borne out of duty, shame, or spiritual discipline, but out of exuberance, out of joy for living. How can I not want the best for you, if you are part of my life, and your happiness is reflected in my life?

 

 

Hi Otis!

 

Very well said, and I agree with You.

I also agree with Marble's that the rub is allowing yourself to let go of anger

towards someone that has done something completely heinous. The feeling

of having to make things right through some action, is a hard one to cope with.

At that juncture I think most people would accept the nullifying of compassion so that

what you would feel is mostly nothing for that individual. The problem with that is

the baggage that you would acculmulate would prevent you from growing your awareness

at some point, and you would be aware but not as fully as would be possible if you

were able to fully feel compassion irregardless of what the circumstances were.

It's a big one, getting beyond that hurdle.

 

Also, everyone talks about increasing our awareness and compassion but

the real question lies in making the leap from philosophical discussion to

to an everyday practice of exercising the principle. I find that if we slow ourselves down,

and focus in an unhurried manner on whatever is transpiring at that moment, that there

seems (to me) to be more opportunity to connect with that compassionate, empathetic feeling.

 

I love what you said about it being the exuberance from the joy of living.

Beautifully said. Thank you for posting something that could be a benefit to everyone!

 

Peace!

[Aaron]

Hehehe. Good try. And I admire your devotion. As for me? I'm going to get a baseball bat and straighten things out. That will afford me peace of mind. It will clarify the water too.

 

My question is how do you clarify the water by adding blood to it?

 

Aaron

[The Way Is Virtue]

In my view, the bottom line is that in this dualistic world of good and bad, kind and unkind, compassionate and indifferent, most people seem to believe good is better than bad, kind is better than unkind, and compassion is better than indifference, etc. People who do good and who promote good and who are compassionate are generally respected while those who are selfish and uncaring and do harm to others are generally thought very poorly of and we may take steps to try to stop such things when it crosses certain lines. I don't think this is just culturally based either because this seems to apply across all cultures for the most part. Those who are compassionate and good are generally respected by most while those who are not compassionate and good are generally not respected by most in the long run.

 

So why is being moral and virtuous and helping others conisdered valuable and important? Why do most people inately seem to recognize and value such traits in others? As I mentioned previously in an earlier comment, within this dualistic world (an 'outward' expression of tao) there are identifiable laws and patterns and ways, if one is paying attention. You can align yourself with these natural laws and patterns and ways or you can ignore them or go against them. Taoists endeavour to recognize and identify these laws and patterns and ways and try to align themselves with these. Ignoring such things or going against them may seem to bring materialistic gain in the short term of part of a lifetime or over a whole lifetime, but Taoists recognize that harm is being done in ways that a strictly materialistic person may not be able to recognize. Taoists traditionally therefore prefer to live fairly simple, moral lives, and to cultivate virtue and help others where possible, and to try to minimize doing harm to all living beings.

 

I think where the confusion lies for a lot of people with taoism and writings like the Tao Te Ching is this:

We have two main points of focus in taoism. Aligning oneself naturally with the 'outward' expression of tao and its laws and ways and patterns, and also at the same time learning not to 'cling' to the outward expressions and to ease off our intense focus on the outward expressions of tao so as to begin to open oneself more to the tao as the great mystery. That which is beyond the duality of good and evil and right and wrong, and beyond rational thought and analysis and expression. Both go together however. By aligning oneself naturally with the outward expression of tao, one also begins to open the door to embracing tao, the great mystery. I think if one examines the Tao Te Ching and other Taoist writings from this point of view, some of what is written may begin to be seen in a different light. The Tao Te Ching not only gives hints about the tao as the great mystery, that which is beyond description, and beyond duality, but the Tao Te Ching also gives concrete, 'down to earth' advice on how to properly conduct oneself and align oneself naturally with the natural ways and patterns and laws of this world, which is an outer expression of tao. Anyone who says that Taoism is indifferent towards good and compassion and helping others is missing a lot in my opinion.

 

I could also say more about the religious practices in Taoism as well but that is not really directly relevant to this thread, but I may comment on that more in another thread sometime. I will say however, consider that perhaps all is not as it might appear on the surface at first glance to the casual observer.

[xenolith]

My question is how do you clarify the water by adding blood to it?

 

Aaron

Well said. I also ask, why would you (Marblehead) facilitate turning a stream-pisser into a stream-shitter?...when you might...by virtue of your expression of compassion...turn the said into a stream-water giver by exercising your heart?

 

Your heart is a puppy dog. Compassion is expressed by letting your puppy dog play...It doesn't care about your judgements about the worthiness of where or with whom it plays...it just wants to do what it wants to do...play...in the same way does your heart want to do what it wants to do...Love...LET IT...as you would let your puppy play.

 

This is how compassion manifests itself...you allowing your heart to Love. In so doing you bring joy to yourself, others and to the Tao.

[doc benway]

Aaron -

What a beautiful and thoughtful post.

There is not much to add.

Why are humans able to and, in fact, prone to ignore suffering in others? Simply because of the profoundly conditioned illusion of separation and independence. It is the same thing that allows us to be calloused towards all life and the earth itself.

I used to puzzle over the distinctions raised between true love and more mundane and superficial emotions that are generally regarded as love. This is something discussed by all of the mystics. Once the true connection of all life, matter, and spirit is experienced (rather than simply imagined and explored intellectually), true love (which is the root of compassion) is readily understood. You certainly seem to have had that insight.

Namaste brother

_/\_

 

In the recent discussion of De and the Tao, I think many of us have come to the conclusion that De is not morality or ethics, but rather something that come from Tao, and that's all and good, but even after figuring that out it still leaves me with a question, if Te is not morality or ethics, then how do we rectify the need for compassion towards others? Isn't compassion supposed to be fueled by a desire to ease others suffering, because it's the right thing to do? If so, does that mean we need to be compassionate because it's the ethical way to behave? Perhaps, but perhaps not.

 

I remember when I was married and having problems with my job and family (I was feeling overwhelmed trying to please everyone). I was holding my stepson at the time, he was around a year and half old. He reached out and put his hand on my cheek and looked at me with this quite serious look, then sighed and leaned his head on my shoulder. He stayed there for the longest time, sucking away at his pacifier, content. Everything everyone had told me up until then, to try and ease my mind did very little, but in that moment, a moment where this small innocent child set about trying to comfort me, not because it was the right thing to do, but because for him it was the natural thing to do, did more to ease my troubles than anything else.

 

In the grand scheme of things, there are far too many questions and often times, not enough answers. I get caught up sometimes in the big picture, forgetting that there are little things I can do, that can be done, not because they're the right thing to do, but because they're the natural thing to do.

 

I believe that I am connected to everything in this universe, as James Broughton put it,

 

This is It

and I am It

and You are It

and so is That

and He is It

and She is It

and It is It

and That is That.

 

If I am truly It, if my connection to you is more evident than what I see it as, if I can drop the idea that I am separate from you and you from me, then is there nothing left to do but feel compassion for those suffering?

 

When one practices compassion they gain great insight into themselves. The Tao Teh Ching says that the Sage puts others before himself, and by putting others before himself, he put himself first. This seems to be a contradiction, but I don't believe it is. In my mind what I see is that when one puts others before themselves, shows compassion to another, what they get out of it, isn't just a deep insight into the nature of suffering, but also deep insight into their own nature.

 

Compassion is one of the three jewels, because it is one of the fundamental emotions one feels for others, when they are acting in a natural way. The practice of compassion helps to strengthen our relationship with others, it helps to deepen our connection to the world at large. It's something that seems to be a sign of weakness, but in fact is a sign of strength.

 

It is with compassion, true compassion, not done out of a sense of right and wrong, but done because one sees another suffering or has caused another to suffer, and feels an innate need to show compassion, that one is truly connected to the world on a spiritual level, a level that allows us to transcend the "I" and become the "It".

 

Even animals show compassion. I remember watching a program about meerkats where for one reason or another a female meerkat decided to stand up to a hyena and ended up mortally wounded. As she lay dying, one by one every meerkat in the pack came over to her and spent time with her. Although we can never be sure what their intent was, I have no problems recognizing compassion and love in that act.

 

If even animals show compassion for others when they suffer, how can we deny that need within ourselves? What happens to us that causes us to be able to tune out the plight of those that suffer all around us? Is the fact that there is so much suffering in the world justification for denying compassion to those who suffer?

 

Anyways, these are just my thoughts. I'm very interested in how other people view compassion, especially as it relates to the Tao. In that light, I would ask others to be respectful and not address their comments towards others and what they need to do, but rather express their views on what compassion truly means and it's virtues as it relates to our own paths in this life.

 

Aaron

[Komako]

When you see that All is One, and One is All, compassion is the Way: to be compassionate to another is to be compassionate to the Self. There is no subject/object barrier, but 10,000 illusions dividing the "I" and the "You." Tao is the origin of the ineffable: it is this origin a Taoist seeks; remember it is One that begot Two, and Two that Begot Three, and Three that Begot 10,000. A Taoist returns to that which Begot One: such is "Te."

[Marblehead]

My question is how do you clarify the water by adding blood to it?

 

Aaron

 

Please don't misunderstand me. The baseball bat is only for the purpose of gaining the other's attention. As I have mentioned in other threads, I believe that violence must always be a last resort.

 

But even if it did come to that, the waters would be bloody for only a short time and they would then become clear of their own accord. This is true with most things in life. If we stop messing with things they will take their natural course. But sometimes we are called to action. We take action, doing only what must be done, nothing more, nothing less, then we allow things to attain their own true naturalness.

[Marblehead]

In my view, the bottom line is that in this dualistic world of good and bad, kind and unkind, compassionate and indifferent, most people seem to believe good is better than bad, kind is better than unkind, and compassion is better than indifference, etc.

 

In my opinion, that is a great post! Thanks for sharing!

[Marblehead]

Well said. I also ask, why would you (Marblehead) facilitate turning a stream-pisser into a stream-shitter?...when you might...by virtue of your expression of compassion...turn the said into a stream-water giver by exercising your heart?

 

Your heart is a puppy dog. Compassion is expressed by letting your puppy dog play...It doesn't care about your judgements about the worthiness of where or with whom it plays...it just wants to do what it wants to do...play...in the same way does your heart want to do what it wants to do...Love...LET IT...as you would let your puppy play.

 

This is how compassion manifests itself...you allowing your heart to Love. In so doing you bring joy to yourself, others and to the Tao.

 

Hi Xeno,

 

I have already responded to that question. But I will add: I am a Taoist, not a Buddhist or a Christian. The concept is a bit different between these philosophies. Look to nature! Look for compassion in pure (non-human distorted) nature.

 

Oh, I let my child out to play all the time. Please don't base your understanding of me solely on what I say in this thread. I am intentionally taking an opposing view with what I am presenting here. It may even be considered extreme.

 

There is no black and white when discussing this concept, only shades of gray.

 

And believe me, I know about compassion and practice it in my own way regularly. But it is rational compassion, very closely linked with the processes of nature.

[Marblehead]

Aaron -

What a beautiful and thoughtful post.

There is not much to add.

Why are humans able to and, in fact, prone to ignore suffering in others? Simply because of the profoundly conditioned illusion of separation and independence. It is the same thing that allows us to be calloused towards all life and the earth itself.

I used to puzzle over the distinctions raised between true love and more mundane and superficial emotions that are generally regarded as love. This is something discussed by all of the mystics. Once the true connection of all life, matter, and spirit is experienced (rather than simply imagined and explored intellectually), true love (which is the root of compassion) is readily understood. You certainly seem to have had that insight.

Namaste brother

_/\_

 

Hi Steve,

 

Not picking on you but merely using your post as a vehicle to speak with those who are so strongly suggesting that we first be compassionate toward others before concerning ourself with our own well-being.

 

So what the heck are you and others doing, sitting in a nice environment, operating a computer gabbing away about idealism when there are so many people starving in Africa?

 

You folks should be, according to what you are saying, selling everything you have and giving the money to charities in order to feed the starving people around the world. Where is all this compassion that is being spoken of?

 

Why aren't you out on the streets with the Salvation Army ringing bells, collecting money to support the homeless?

 

No. I don't believe in all these words of idealism that are being spoken of here in this thread. The real world isn't that way.

 

No. I am not suggesting that I am out ringing bells and collecting money for others. But I do put money into the bucket whenever I pass one and I do make personal contributions throughout the year. I give my excess. That is true compassion. What many speak of is unattainable compassion.

 

So, in my opinion, we first take care of ourself, then we insure the well-being of those who are closest to us. After that we give freely without expectation. That is, we give our excess and just let it go, not expecting any thanks from those who benefit.

 

Giving without thanks or reward is the best form of compassion. But we should never allow our need to be compassionate to destroy our own well-being.

[Marblehead]

When you see that All is One, and One is All, compassion is the Way: to be compassionate to another is to be compassionate to the Self. There is no subject/object barrier, but 10,000 illusions dividing the "I" and the "You." Tao is the origin of the ineffable: it is this origin a Taoist seeks; remember it is One that begot Two, and Two that Begot Three, and Three that Begot 10,000. A Taoist returns to that which Begot One: such is "Te."

 

But remember, if you are not giving all you have to those who have less than you have then you are not complying with your own standard of compassion.

 

If we set standards to impose on others we must first make sure we are meeting those very standards. How much money have you sent to unknown persons to you living in Africa who are starving?

 

Yes, I here what you are saying. We all return to the source. Compassion within reason!

[Otis]

So what the heck are you and others doing, sitting in a nice environment, operating a computer gabbing away about idealism when there are so many people starving in Africa?

 

You folks should be, according to what you are saying, selling everything you have and giving the money to charities in order to feed the starving people around the world. Where is all this compassion that is being spoken of?

 

Why aren't you out on the streets with the Salvation Army ringing bells, collecting money to support the homeless?

 

No. I don't believe in all these words of idealism that are being spoken of here in this thread. The real world isn't that way.

 

No. I am not suggesting that I am out ringing bells and collecting money for others. But I do put money into the bucket whenever I pass one and I do make personal contributions throughout the year. I give my excess. That is true compassion. What many speak of is unattainable compassion.

 

So, in my opinion, we first take care of ourself, then we insure the well-being of those who are closest to us. After that we give freely without expectation. That is, we give our excess and just let it go, not expecting any thanks from those who benefit.

 

Giving without thanks or reward is the best form of compassion. But we should never allow our need to be compassionate to destroy our own well-being.

I agree with you, Marblehead. Idealism, IMO, doesn't have much to do with Taoism, and the shoulds have very little to do with reality.

 

I think there are plenty of emotional traps when shame masquerades as compassion, giving rise to martyrs and victims.

 

And yes, I think there are stages of self-care that need to be met before we can really be healthily present and available for others. "Put on your own oxygen mask before helping someone else with theirs."

 

But a great deal of what we term compassion is merely looking beyond fake scarcity. Quite often, we think we can't give what someone else needs, without somehow endangering our selves or our family. But that's often subject to false positives. If I am inclined to cling to what is mine, then I can easily find 1000s of reasons to say no, when I really don't need to.

 

Another big part of compassion is forgiveness, which is really just saving myself the agony of hating others. It is a great favor to myself to forgive others.

 

Another great part of compassion is merely seeing other people as full and total people, rather than just objects in my way. That costs me nothing, and helps me understand those I have to deal with.

 

The other elements: e.g. letting go of blame, learning to listen, practicing generosity, and seeing the divine/perfection in everyone, all just refine my character, and lead me toward a lighter, less emotionally burdened life.

 

No ideals need be followed. No oughts or shoulds need be mandated. I just need to practice shedding the false alarms that keep me constricted and unavailable, when I actually have a great deal to share. What is good for me, just happens to be good for others, as well. IME, the path of compassion is also the path of freedom.

[Marblehead]

Hi Otis,

 

Great post. Thanks for sharing.

[KoolAid900]

Yes, there is the Way of Tao and there is the way of man. All to often the two ways are at opposites. It is my opinion that when the way of man is counter to the Way of Tao compassion is null and void.

 

When the way of the man is in harmony with the Way of Tao, what kind of compassion is needed? Seems like the compassion would be most needed where there is the most suffering, not where there is wisdom & understanding... Am I missing something?

[KoolAid900]

But even if it did come to that, the waters would be bloody for only a short time and they would then become clear of their own accord. This is true with most things in life. If we stop messing with things they will take their natural course.

 

So the key to harmonious violence is stop afterward? ROFL

 

.... not trying to pick, just a fuuny idea

[Aaron]

Hello Marblehead,

 

I think you're missing my point, true compassion, compassion that springs from the source, is not idealistic, because it doesn't come from an ideal, moral, or ethic, but rather the need to do what is natural. When you reach an understanding of your place in this world, really understand the true nature of the world, then I believe that there is little that one can do but feel compassion. You are me and I am you. It really is that simple.

 

Aaron

Edited December 15, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

When the way of the man is in harmony with the Way of Tao, what kind of compassion is needed? Seems like the compassion would be most needed where there is the most suffering, not where there is wisdom & understanding... Am I missing something?

 

Ah! See. You are reading the posts. Hehehe. True. If the way of Man were consistent with the Way of Tao compassion would not even be an issue. Each person would do whatever they are best at doing and the unable would be cared for - naturally.

[Marblehead]

So the key to harmonious violence is stop afterward? ROFL

 

.... not trying to pick, just a fuuny idea

 

Hehehe. Valid point. Enough is enough, whatever the action.

[Marblehead]

Hello Marblehead,

 

I think you're missing my point, true compassion, compassion that springs from the source, is not idealistic, because it doesn't come from an ideal, moral, or ethic, but rather the need to do what is natural. When you reach an understanding of your place in this world, really understand the true nature of the world, then I believe that there is little that one can do but feel compassion. You are me and I am you. It really is that simple.

 

Aaron

 

Hi Aaron,

 

True that I have been known to misunderstand others. I fess up to that. However,

 

I must still stand to my understanding that we each are separately manifested people. That is, I am not you and you are not me. Yes, we are of the same source - stardust.

 

There is no way in hell that I am going to be compassionate toward the man who raped and murdered the 11 years old girl. That simply is not one of my capabilities.

 

I have known many people I wish I had never met and a few I have wished that had never been born. We are individual manifestations, weaned according to our experiences in life.

 

Now please understand, I am not saying that I am right or that you are wrong. We each must follow our own path in life. My experiences have taught me that everyone does not wish me well. There are many people who would take advantage of me if I allowed it to happen. There are many people who know how to play the "poor me" game and they are very good at drawing upon a person's compassion and billfold.

 

When we walk out in the desert we are careful where we are walking because there are rattlesnakes out there that will strike you, most often only in defense, if you get too close to them or catch them by surprise. When dealing with people it is good to understand that there are many rattlesnakes and they will strike you whenever possible. People rattlesnakes are more evil than are the reptile rattlesnakes.

 

I'm not saying that you way is not best for you. I have no idea. But I know that my way is best for me. I have been that compassionate sucker too many times in my life. And even today a person might get to me now and then but I never let it go too far.

 

Anyhow. Compassion is a wonderful concept to talk about. Don't let my hard-headedness stop you from continuing to discuss the concept.

[adept]

So what the heck are you and others doing, sitting in a nice environment, operating a computer gabbing away about idealism when there are so many people starving in Africa?

 

You folks should be, according to what you are saying, selling everything you have and giving the money to charities in order to feed the starving people around the world. Where is all this compassion that is being spoken of?

 

Why aren't you out on the streets with the Salvation Army ringing bells, collecting money to support the homeless?

 

Sorry, I don't agree with this.

What you describe is charity, or giving which is one of the six paramitas of Mahayana Buddhism.

Compassion, on the other hand is helping another less fortunate, in the best way possible, at a given moment in time, and then moving on, without a thought of personal gain or praise. It has nothing to do with money at all. It is a feeling within us to help as best we can without any prompting.

Just my point of view.

[Marblehead]

Sorry, I don't agree with this.

What you describe is charity, or giving which is one of the six paramitas of Mahayana Buddhism.

Compassion, on the other hand is helping another less fortunate, in the best way possible, at a given moment in time, and then moving on, without a thought of personal gain or praise. It has nothing to do with money at all. It is a feeling within us to help as best we can without any prompting.

Just my point of view.

 

Well, it just so happens that your point of view is very similar to mine. Remember, in this discussion I am taking the extreme counter position from 'universal compassion' as expressed by many idealists.

[adept]

Well, it just so happens that your point of view is very similar to mine. Remember, in this discussion I am taking the extreme counter position from 'universal compassion' as expressed by many idealists.

 

Yeah, idealism is something that can never be achieved.

Compassion, however, and the actions associated with showing it, are achievable.