Compassion and Taoism

[Aaron]

I find it sad that people consider compassion to be "idealism". I suppose humility and frugality are idealistic as well.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

I find it sad that people consider compassion to be "idealism". I suppose humility and frugality are idealistic as well.

 

Aaron

 

Hi Aaron,

 

Please don't misunderstand what I have been saying here. Yes, I consider 'universal compassion' to be unattainable idealism. Compassion towards those 'deserving' of compassion is not the same concept as 'universal compassion'.

 

But yes, even humility and frugality must or can be over-looked occasionally. The three treasures are not dogma - they are suggestions of a 'best way' under most circumstances.

[Aaron]

Hi Aaron,

 

Please don't misunderstand what I have been saying here. Yes, I consider 'universal compassion' to be unattainable idealism. Compassion towards those 'deserving' of compassion is not the same concept as 'universal compassion'.

 

But yes, even humility and frugality must or can be over-looked occasionally. The three treasures are not dogma - they are suggestions of a 'best way' under most circumstances.

 

Fine, so who decides who deserves compassion? When humanity arises, Tao is diminished. They are suggestions, only in the sense that there is no requirement that one practice them, however if one truly wishes to become aware of the nature of Tao, well then I would recommend dropping the idea that it's a suggestion.

 

Aaron

[doc benway]

I must still stand to my understanding that we each are separately manifested people. That is, I am not you and you are not me.

And that is why you are having trouble with Aaron's point of view.

Be well,

Steve

[doc benway]

There is no way in hell that I am going to be compassionate toward the man who raped and murdered the 11 years old girl. That simply is not one of my capabilities.

Compassion doesn't equate to ignoring or condoning violent acts. Someone who acts in such a way is deeply disturbed and suffering greatly. It is a compassionate act to respond to their suffering and the suffering of their victims by taking appropriate action, whatever that may be. Severe punishment for violent acts is a reflection of love and compassion in my mind.

[Marblehead]

Fine, so who decides who deserves compassion? When humanity arises, Tao is diminished. They are suggestions, only in the sense that there is no requirement that one practice them, however if one truly wishes to become aware of the nature of Tao, well then I would recommend dropping the idea that it's a suggestion.

 

Aaron

 

Hi Aaron,

 

I decide who benefits from my excess in a small manner. I contribute regularly to five charities. My first requirement is that the charity uses at least 70 percent of donations for helping those they are supposed to be helping. The other requirement is that no organization that pays its CEO more than $475,000 a year gets any of my money. (That's actually 20 times more than my annual income.)

 

I decide who deserves my compassion as well. I have no compassion for anyone who participates in self-destructive behavior. I will not buy an alcoholic a beer or bottle of wine. If you want to feel compassion for Hitler you go right ahead on. I can't go there.

 

I am already aware of the nature of Tao. I have seen documentaries on TV where a new alpha male lion will kill all the cubs of the old alpha male. That is one of the Ways of Tao. Man has nothing to do with that. But man has his own faults as well. I don't underestimate my faults. Nor do I underestimate my enemies.

 

I do recognize the good in people. I also recognize the evil in some.

 

I really don't need anyone's recommendations as to how I follow my path. It is "MY" path. And it is very Taoist.

[Aaron]

Hello Marblehead,

 

That is my point, in that regard, you are the ultimate authority. The fact is, once we determine who deserves compassion and who doesn't, then that act is no longer compassion, but as you stated, charity. In order to practice compassion at an innate level, one cannot force it, but rather it naturally arises in response to ones understanding of the nature of the world. As Steve pointed out, that is one reason why you are having trouble understanding my point, because you don't perceive your connection to the world in the same way that I do.

 

Should criminals be punished for their behavior? Should a child be punished for slapping another child? The idea is not that there should be no consequences for actions, but rather that one feels (the operative word is feels) compassion for others and uses compassion as a basis for how they treat others. I can't feed everyone in the world, nor is it my responsibility to do so, but at the same time, if I understand that you are me and I am you, then if I see you suffer, there is no way that I cannot feel that suffering as well.

 

Aaron

Edited December 15, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Hello Marblehead,

 

That is my point, in that regard, you are the ultimate authority. The fact is, once we determine who deserves compassion and who doesn't, then that act is no longer compassion, but as you stated, charity. In order to practice compassion at an innate level, one cannot force it, but rather it naturally arises in response to ones understanding of the nature of the world. As Steve pointed out, that is one reason why you are having trouble understanding my point, because you don't perceive your connection to the world in the same way that I do.

 

Should criminals be punished for their behavior? Should a child be punished for slapping another child? The idea is not that there should be no consequences for actions, but rather that one feels (the operative word is feels) compassion for others and uses compassion as a basis for how they treat others. I can't feed everyone in the world, nor is it my responsibility to do so, but at the same time, if I understand that you are me and I am you, then if I see you suffer, there is no way that I cannot feel that suffering as well.

 

Aaron

 

Hi Aaron,

 

Okay. Near the end you switched from the concept of compassion to empathy. These are too different concepts, in my mind.

 

Regarding my charity. Yes, it is based in compassion for those who have less than I have. But I have only so much excess at different times through the year so I must be selective as to what charities I support. The individuals who actually benefit from my giving are unknowns to me. They can never tell me "Thank you". and that doesn't matter at all. (I do, however, expect the charity to thank me because I am supporting their job as well.)

 

But you see, my charity giving is based in compassion. Compassion for those who do not have enough. And I have empathy for all who do not have enough. But I have no compassion for someone who does not have enough because they spent all the money on dope. No, I don't even have empathy for that type of person. They have created their own problems. It was their choice.

 

And it is not that I do not understand your view of the concept of compassion, it is just that I have my own view and it has worked very well for me. I tried the Buddhist way a long time ago and it didn't work for me. And I gave up the Christian view long before that.

 

So here I am. A Taoist but a realist. An optimist but a realist. A Nietzschian, which is a realist.

[rene]

Compassion doesn't equate to ignoring or condoning violent acts. Someone who acts in such a way is deeply disturbed and suffering greatly. It is a compassionate act to respond to their suffering and the suffering of their victims by taking appropriate action, whatever that may be. Severe punishment for violent acts is a reflection of love and compassion in my mind.

 

For clarity - are you saying that if the act is violent, then an appropriate punishment, even a severe punishment, is a reflection of love and compassion?

[Otis]

But you see, my charity giving is based in compassion. Compassion for those who do not have enough. And I have empathy for all who do not have enough. But I have no compassion for someone who does not have enough because they spent all the money on dope. No, I don't even have empathy for that type of person. They have created their own problems. It was their choice.

Marblehead, I appreciate that you are playing devil's advocate on this one; keeps the dialectic lively. So I promise: I am not telling you how you should live your life, but just responding to the argument that you're advocating.

 

In your example about the person who "spent all the money on dope", you say you don't "have empathy for that type of person. They have created their own problems. It was their choice."

 

I know I've made many choices in my life, that didn't turn out well. I've even started down avenues of criminality, when I was much younger. Will I justify those choices? Of course not. Nor regret them. The only thing that makes sense to me is to be compassionate about my earlier self, realize that I was ignorant, searching, being clumsy, and thereby learn from those choices.

 

How different, then, is the "other" out there, who is currently making bad choices? How could I not have empathy for that person, when I have been that person myself? Why should I expect another to "get it all right the first time", when I have learned how impossible it is for me to do that?

[Otis]

...everyone talks about increasing our awareness and compassion but

the real question lies in making the leap from philosophical discussion to

to an everyday practice of exercising the principle.

This was from a much earlier post, but raises an important question that I think is worth discussing.

 

How do each of you practice becoming more compassionate, in moment-to-moment living?

[Aaron]

Hi Aaron,

 

Okay. Near the end you switched from the concept of compassion to empathy. These are too different concepts, in my mind.

 

Regarding my charity. Yes, it is based in compassion for those who have less than I have. But I have only so much excess at different times through the year so I must be selective as to what charities I support. The individuals who actually benefit from my giving are unknowns to me. They can never tell me "Thank you". and that doesn't matter at all. (I do, however, expect the charity to thank me because I am supporting their job as well.)

 

But you see, my charity giving is based in compassion. Compassion for those who do not have enough. And I have empathy for all who do not have enough. But I have no compassion for someone who does not have enough because they spent all the money on dope. No, I don't even have empathy for that type of person. They have created their own problems. It was their choice.

 

And it is not that I do not understand your view of the concept of compassion, it is just that I have my own view and it has worked very well for me. I tried the Buddhist way a long time ago and it didn't work for me. And I gave up the Christian view long before that.

 

So here I am. A Taoist but a realist. An optimist but a realist. A Nietzschian, which is a realist.

 

Well I'm neither a Taoist, a Buddhist, or a realist, so I can understand what you're saying. However reality states that you could very well be the person that requires compassion one day, so what say you about the person who decides you don't deserve it?

 

Aaron

Edited December 18, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Hi Otis,

 

Excellent arguement.

 

Marblehead, I appreciate that you are playing devil's advocate on this one; keeps the dialectic lively. So I promise: I am not telling you how you should live your life, but just responding to the argument that you're advocating.

 

Thanks for recognizing that.

 

In your example about the person who "spent all the money on dope", you say you don't "have empathy for that type of person. They have created their own problems. It was their choice."

 

No, I can't empathize with them because I have never lived like that. I have lived a very conservative life except for my adventureness in seeing places I had never seen before and meeting people I had never met before.

 

But yes, I am a firm believer in free will a our freedom to make choices when thare are choices available. So, yes, it was their choice.

 

I know I've made many choices in my life, that didn't turn out well. I've even started down avenues of criminality, when I was much younger. Will I justify those choices? Of course not. Nor regret them. The only thing that makes sense to me is to be compassionate about my earlier self, realize that I was ignorant, searching, being clumsy, and thereby learn from those choices.

 

I don't believe compassion play any role here. Oh! of course, I too have made many bad choices in my life. Still do on occasion. All I see a need of here is that we accept responsibility for our choices and resulting actions. Yes, we should learn from our mistakes as well as our successes. That's called becoming mature.

 

How different, then, is the "other" out there, who is currently making bad choices? How could I not have empathy for that person, when I have been that person myself? Why should I expect another to "get it all right the first time", when I have learned how impossible it is for me to do that?

 

Yes, in your case you can have empathy for that person who is going through the same trials you experienced. If you know the person you might even want to help him or her see what road they are travelling and maybe even help if you can. But this isn't even compassion. It is sound logic.

[Marblehead]

Well I'm neither a Taoist, a Buddhist, or a realist, so I can understand what you're saying. However reality states that you could very well be the person that requires compassion one day, so what say you about the person who decides you don't deserve it?

 

Aaron

 

That would be thier choice, wouldn't it? I don't even really expect compassion from anyone regardless of my condition. I know how to feel sorry for myself.

 

But, if I needed help I would expect one of my friends to come to my aid. Or I could just pay someone to help me.

 

Yes, one day, if I live long enough, I will get very old. That's the way life is.

[Marblehead]

This was from a much earlier post, but raises an important question that I think is worth discussing.

 

How do each of you practice becoming more compassionate, in moment-to-moment living?

 

I don't think I can answer your question. I think Aaron hit on it earlier when he said (I paraphrase) that compassion comes from within. Can becoming compassionate be practiced? I suppose so. But I would be one of the last people to ask how to go about doing it.

[Marblehead]

Yea!!! We have more views of this thread than does the thread about how many ejaculations ...

 

I'm proud of us!!!

[Aaron]

That would be thier choice, wouldn't it? I don't even really expect compassion from anyone regardless of my condition. I know how to feel sorry for myself.

 

But, if I needed help I would expect one of my friends to come to my aid. Or I could just pay someone to help me.

 

Yes, one day, if I live long enough, I will get very old. That's the way life is.

 

Well I hope that you never get in that kind of situation. I remember being in line at the store one day. A mother bought her child a candy bar with a food stamps card, the woman behind her whispered to me, "I don't pay taxes so she can buy her child a candy bar." I wonder what she would've said if her child was the one asking for a candy bar?

 

As far as how I practice compassion, I do it to the best of my ability and I don't think there's any need to explain it in detail. I will also say that I don't advocate anything I don't actually practice on a day to day basis.

 

As far as someone who has gotten themselves into the situation they're in, repeatedly bailing them out is oftentimes worse than letting them experience a bit of pain. Pain is the touchstone of change, so there's nothing that says you shouldn't let someone get burnt so they learn that fire is hot. A lot of it has to do with the intention behind what you're doing.

 

Aaron

Edited December 15, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Well I hope that you never get in that kind of situation.

Aaron

 

Already have been. I was in a wheel chair for two weeks and then two more months with a broken hip. I was taken care of but I was also ripped off by a couple of the 'care-givers'. I got self-reliant as soon as I could.

 

Anyhow, you got another point because that post was very realistic, IMO.

[Aaron]

Already have been. I was in a wheel chair for two weeks and then two more months with a broken hip. I was taken care of but I was also ripped off by a couple of the 'care-givers'. I got self-reliant as soon as I could.

 

Anyhow, you got another point because that post was very realistic, IMO.

 

In the spirit of compassion, I give all my points to you.

 

Aaron

[strawdog65]

Yea!!! We have more views of this thread than does the thread about how many ejaculations ...

 

I'm proud of us!!!

 

 

I was gonna' post over there...

But now that the winners are over here....

 

All that ejac talk is a younger mans game.

[xenolith]

And that is why you are having trouble with Aaron's point of view.

Word.

When you see that All is One, and One is All, compassion is the Way: to be compassionate to another is to be compassionate to the Self. There is no subject/object barrier, but 10,000 illusions dividing the "I" and the "You." Tao is the origin of the ineffable: it is this origin a Taoist seeks; remember it is One that begot Two, and Two that Begot Three, and Three that Begot 10,000. A Taoist returns to that which Begot One: such is "Te."

Big Word.

 

Two comments: 1) compassion is the essence of the Bodhisattva...reason enough to cultivate it me thinks; and 2) until one recognizes one's self in others (ALL others) one has not a fully functional heart...as a consequence, that person will never perceive the veils of illusion that separate us from the reality of the Tao. Through exercising compassion for (ALL) others the heart gains (full) functionality expressed as voice and vocabulary to inform the self of the veils of illusion which surround it...making possible the revealing of the Tao.

 

The astute will note that 1 and 2 are the same comment.

 

Little positive vibe along these lines from Roger:

 

Let your heart play!

 

With Love,

 

xeno

Edited December 16, 2010 by xenolith

[Otis]

Can becoming compassionate be practiced? I suppose so. But I would be one of the last people to ask how to go about doing it.

It sounds to me like you do practice it, with the charity work you mentioned. Every time you give, you're practicing compassion.

 

I am also trying to learn to be more compassionate, to open my heart more fully. I do not have specific practices (in the formal ritual sense) to increase compassion, but I do see that life provides me with many opportunities to practice.

 

I don't always step up when the chance arises, but I think that compassion for myself (in the form of acceptance of where I'm at) is indispensable to practicing compassion for others. How silly would it be for me to beat myself up, for missing a chance to help another!

 

One form of practice I have (in every realm of life) is to watch my thoughts. There are certain kinds of thoughts that ring alarm bells, and suggest a skeptical attitude to my thinking. For example, any thought which makes me more important than someone else, any thought that blames another for my problems or bad feelings, any thought that justifies my actions or excuses my feelings. These thoughts are not automatically wrong, but they are suspect, since they are key tools that my ego uses to support itself.

 

My judgments of others are the warning sign that I am indulging in ego-strengthening activity. If I condemn another without knowing much about them, for example, then it's a clear sign that I am resorting to shorthand emotional heuristics, rather than aware immersion in life.

 

These practices may not sound like compassion, but IME, compassion shines through more brightly and naturally, when I'm not feeding or defending my ego. My job, I think, is to recognize what habits I have which get in the way of compassion, and surrender them, as best I can.

[Aaron]

It sounds to me like you do practice it, with the charity work you mentioned. Every time you give, you're practicing compassion.

 

I am also trying to learn to be more compassionate, to open my heart more fully. I do not have specific practices (in the formal ritual sense) to increase compassion, but I do see that life provides me with many opportunities to practice.

 

I don't always step up when the chance arises, but I think that compassion for myself (in the form of acceptance of where I'm at) is indispensable to practicing compassion for others. How silly would it be for me to beat myself up, for missing a chance to help another!

 

One form of practice I have (in every realm of life) is to watch my thoughts. There are certain kinds of thoughts that ring alarm bells, and suggest a skeptical attitude to my thinking. For example, any thought which makes me more important than someone else, any thought that blames another for my problems or bad feelings, any thought that justifies my actions or excuses my feelings. These thoughts are not automatically wrong, but they are suspect, since they are key tools that my ego uses to support itself.

 

My judgments of others are the warning sign that I am indulging in ego-strengthening activity. If I condemn another without knowing much about them, for example, then it's a clear sign that I am resorting to shorthand emotional heuristics, rather than aware immersion in life.

 

These practices may not sound like compassion, but IME, compassion shines through more brightly and naturally, when I'm not feeding or defending my ego. My job, I think, is to recognize what habits I have which get in the way of compassion, and surrender them, as best I can.

 

Hello Otis,

 

What I think you're talking about is humility. You practice humility within and without, which is how it should be practiced in my opinion. One can easily practice external humility, but having insight into one's own capacity for hubris is wisdom. Addressing it and resolving to be rid of it, to let it arise and pass, that is a commendable thing indeed. I think you are right when you talk about compassion arising when the mind is free of pride and avarice. When one realizes that they are no better or worse than others, then they can be a wellspring of compassion. Thanks for your insight.

 

Aaron

Edited December 16, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

I was gonna' post over there...

But now that the winners are over here....

 

All that ejac talk is a younger mans game.

 

Yeah. All young men go through that phase. Few bring it into the public as is done here though. I think it is good that it can be talked about though.

[Marblehead]

In the spirit of compassion, I give all my points to you.

 

Aaron

 

Hehehe. Thanks Aaron.