Compassion and Taoism

[Marblehead]

 

One form of practice I have (in every realm of life) is to watch my thoughts. There are certain kinds of thoughts that ring alarm bells, and suggest a skeptical attitude to my thinking. For example, any thought which makes me more important than someone else, any thought that blames another for my problems or bad feelings, any thought that justifies my actions or excuses my feelings. These thoughts are not automatically wrong, but they are suspect, since they are key tools that my ego uses to support itself.

 

I think that what you speak of here is very important. I believe that our self-rising thoughts originate from our subconscious mind (sometimes referred to as our heart). If negative thoughts arise spontaniously I think that it is an indicator that we are not at peace with our Self. And I think that being at peace with our Self is the root of becoming compassionate toward others.

[doc benway]

For clarity - are you saying that if the act is violent, then an appropriate punishment, even a severe punishment, is a reflection of love and compassion?

Yes, that is what I'm saying. When someone commits violent acts, it not only is harmful to the victim but also to the perpetrator, his/her friends and family and future generations. It has karmic consequences, psychological consequences, emotional consequences, etc... Intervening through prevention and/or punishment is an act of love and compassion in my view. At least such a perspective helps me to reconcile these paradoxical ideas of love and equanimity.

[Otis]

When someone commits violent acts, it not only is harmful to the victim but also to the perpetrator, his/her friends and family and future generations. It has karmic consequences, psychological consequences, emotional consequences, etc... Intervening through prevention and/or punishment is an act of love and compassion in my view. At least such a perspective helps me to reconcile these paradoxical ideas of love and equanimity.

This makes sense to me. I'm seeing this right now with a nephew of mine. His parents keep bailing him out of problems, without him having to face the consequences, and it's taking him down a dangerous path. Right now, he's on house arrest, for trying to run over someone he had a beef with. He narrowly avoided jail, and is grateful to his parents for paying the legal fees, but he still doesn't get it, that the world doesn't owe him everything. I don't see him learning that, until there's at least a hard jolt to his system, to wake him up. I love my nephew, and so I wish on him a wake up call soon, before he goes any deeper on a path of criminality.

[rene]

Yes, that is what I'm saying. When someone commits violent acts, it not only is harmful to the victim but also to the perpetrator, his/her friends and family and future generations. It has karmic consequences, psychological consequences, emotional consequences, etc... Intervening through prevention and/or punishment is an act of love and compassion in my view. At least such a perspective helps me to reconcile these paradoxical ideas of love and equanimity.

 

Steve, thanks for clarifying (-:

 

I ponder where the line is. The line that sorts out what would qualify for extreme actions and what wouldn't. On one side of the line seems to be Marbleheads whackin the guy for pissing in the stream; on the other might be what will eventually occur with Otis' nephew. Of course, this divider line is something that is not static, and each situation will influence what response still falls within the basket of 'love and compassion'.

 

That said, however, the largest weight influencing any decision might be the mindset of the intervenor. Notice I didn't say 'intent' - for we all IMO just do the best we can with the best of intentions, yes? But if our mindset is one of 'oh I must help because my way is better than his way' well...

 

So, what is one to do? What I've found to be useful is to not cling to any idea about what is 'best', and instead listen to the nei xin; allowing my (dual) preference for harmony and the (non-dual) flow of all actions - arise spontaneously.

 

What do you find works for you, to inform your choices and actions?

 

warm regards

 

p.s. Otis..best of luck re nephew. not easy times.

[KoolAid900]

 

'oh I must help because my way is better than his way' well...

 

That's the intent, manifested in thought/perspective. You basically arrived at the meaning by choosing a different word, how funny!

 

instead listen to the nei xin; allowing my (dual) preference for harmony and the (non-dual) flow of all actions - arise spontaneously.

 

wow, that sounds really cool. what is nei xin?

[Aaron]

I think that discussing the degree one shows compassion for another and who should and shouldn't be shown compassion is really just nitpicking. Compassion should spring forth naturally, not be compelled or require logical debate. Compassion is an innate aspect of being human. It's what connects us to each other. I am not saying this from a Buddhist perspective, but from what I believe is a very basic Taoist understanding.

 

Many people hear "straw dogs" and immediately believe that human beings are not required to be emotionally connected to one another. They hear detachment and immediately begin to picture some Vulcan logic, when that's not what it's about at all. It is only when one is not sentimental, when they hold no attachments or preferences for one more than another that all things can be treated equally and the Tao can be practiced.

 

If you have to choose between your child or a stranger's child, I doubt that many would think twice about choosing to save their own child, it would be an innate response. That doesn't mean that one does not care for or have compassion for the other child, only that one has a relationship that predisposes them towards saving their own child.

 

What seems to be the case, is that when one recognizes their connection to others, sees that connection on a deeper level, then compassion arises on its own, without prompting. I don't think one can just begin to practice innate compassion, rather it is the product of one's awareness of their place in the world. When one becomes aware, then they will understand that all of the logical debate about compassion is meaningless, because one form of compassion works along the lines of humanity and ethics, the other on a deeper spiritual principal that is brought forth from Tao. Debating whether it exists is meaningless as well, because one can only become aware of it, through awareness of one's connection to others.

 

With that said, the innate compassion does spring forth now and again, an example would be the mother who forgives the man who, while driving drunk, ran over their child (I've seen this personally by the way). The forgiveness granted in that instance, was not one that was required, but one that stemmed from a deep connection between the mother and the man.

 

I do feel that this is becoming a "Tao vs Buddhism" argument, when it shouldn't be. This just happens to be one of the concepts that Taoists and Buddhists (at least traditional Taoist and Buddhists) seemed to agree on.

 

Aaron

[C T]

I think that discussing the degree one shows compassion for another and who should and shouldn't be shown compassion is really just nitpicking. Compassion should spring forth naturally, not be compelled or require logical debate. Compassion is an innate aspect of being human. It's what connects us to each other. I am not saying this from a Buddhist perspective, but from what I believe is a very basic Taoist understanding.

 

Many people hear "straw dogs" and immediately believe that human beings are not required to be emotionally connected to one another. They hear detachment and immediately begin to picture some Vulcan logic, when that's not what it's about at all. It is only when one is not sentimental, when they hold no attachments or preferences for one more than another that all things can be treated equally and the Tao can be practiced.

 

If you have to choose between your child or a stranger's child, I doubt that many would think twice about choosing to save their own child, it would be an innate response. That doesn't mean that one does not care for or have compassion for the other child, only that one has a relationship that predisposes them towards saving their own child.

 

What seems to be the case, is that when one recognizes their connection to others, sees that connection on a deeper level, then compassion arises on its own, without prompting. I don't think one can just begin to practice innate compassion, rather it is the product of one's awareness of their place in the world. When one becomes aware, then they will understand that all of the logical debate about compassion is meaningless, because one form of compassion works along the lines of humanity and ethics, the other on a deeper spiritual principal that is brought forth from Tao. Debating whether it exists is meaningless as well, because one can only become aware of it, through awareness of one's connection to others.

With that said, the innate compassion does spring forth now and again, an example would be the mother who forgives the man who, while driving drunk, ran over their child (I've seen this personally by the way). The forgiveness granted in that instance, was not one that was required, but one that stemmed from a deep connection between the mother and the man.

 

I do feel that this is becoming a "Tao vs Buddhism" argument, when it shouldn't be. This just happens to be one of the concepts that Taoists and Buddhists (at least traditional Taoist and Buddhists) seemed to agree on.

 

Aaron

Absolutely! Great thoughts, Hermit... love that highlighted para!

[Otis]

p.s. Otis..best of luck re nephew. not easy times.

Thanks! It's my brother, his father, who is really having a hard time with it.

[Marblehead]

I think that discussing the degree one shows compassion for another ...

 

Yes, nice post Aaron.

 

And I agree, we should not allow this discussion become a comparative arguement of different philosophies.

 

And yes, I do agree that feelings of compassion can be felt even though a person can do nothing to make things better.

 

And when I speak to subjects such as this I really do try to express as close as possible how I truely understand the concepts. My experiences in life have brought me to where I am now. I place no value judgements on this and I hope that no one else places their value judgements on where I am now and I do try very hard to not place my value judgements on others and where they are in life at the present moment.

 

Compassion is an emotion. If this compassion drives one toward action to solve a problem then it has served a good purpose. If the emotion if felt but nothing is done where something could have been done then it serves no purpose.

 

And this is why I so much prefer the concept of empathy over compassion. I feel that empathy is a stronger driving force for one to take action.

 

Anyhow, I think this has, so far, been a very delightful discussion. Thanks to all for participating.

[Aaron]

Hello Marblehead,

 

I think talking about compassion without discussing empathy is moot. As I said, detachment isn't about regarding things without affection, but rather being able to regard everyone with affection. In that light, I think it follows that one will feel empathy, because empathy is the foundation of compassion. Compassion is the action that results from empathy, and in fact empathy is the exact thing that springs from awareness. Empathy is the one emotion that defies morality and ethics, it's the feeling one has towards another's suffering.

 

Aaron

[doc benway]

 

What do you find works for you, to inform your choices and actions?

 

First, I've spent years chipping away at what makes me tick. I've been able to expose a lot of my conditioning and self-deceptive patterns. Next, I try to be honest with myself regarding my motivation and intention. Consequently, I've been able to identify some of my core values through this process. What seems to work for me is to act in accordance with these values. When I do so, I invariable feel "right" about my decisions and actions.

 

When it comes to discussion about where certain lines should be drawn in terms of what is acceptable or tolerable and what is not, I don't think there is a clear answer that everyone will ever agree upon. Too much is a result of parental, cultural, and societal conditioning and other influences that are too numerous to discuss. These variances are simply a reflection of the infinite variety of manifestation (the 10,000 things). Perhaps if all of humanity could strip away the conditioning, we would all agree on the basic human values (and to be fair most people do agree on the basic core values). Until that happens (I'm not holding my breath) we will struggle with our varying ideals and values. There is nothing unnatural about this, it is the human condition. Struggling against this is a source of suffering, accepting it is Wu Wei or non-attachment.

[doc benway]

Yes, nice post Aaron.

 

And I agree, we should not allow this discussion become a comparative arguement of different philosophies.

 

And yes, I do agree that feelings of compassion can be felt even though a person can do nothing to make things better.

 

And when I speak to subjects such as this I really do try to express as close as possible how I truely understand the concepts. My experiences in life have brought me to where I am now. I place no value judgements on this and I hope that no one else places their value judgements on where I am now and I do try very hard to not place my value judgements on others and where they are in life at the present moment.

 

Compassion is an emotion. If this compassion drives one toward action to solve a problem then it has served a good purpose. If the emotion if felt but nothing is done where something could have been done then it serves no purpose.

 

And this is why I so much prefer the concept of empathy over compassion. I feel that empathy is a stronger driving force for one to take action.

 

Anyhow, I think this has, so far, been a very delightful discussion. Thanks to all for participating.

Is compassion an emotion? Or is it empathy in action?

I feel empathy but I act in a compassionate manner.

I think the two are intimately related.

It's all just word salad anyway.

It is good to take the time to be considerate of others and act accordingly.

I agree that this has been a nice a thread.

I rarely participate anymore but Aaron's wonderful initial post got my juices flowing again.

Namaste.

[Aaron]

Thank you Cowtao. I'm glad you liked it.

 

Aaron

Edited December 18, 2010 by Twinner

[Aaron]

Is compassion an emotion? Or is it empathy in action?

I feel empathy but I act in a compassionate manner.

I think the two are intimately related.

It's all just word salad anyway.

It is good to take the time to be considerate of others and act accordingly.

I agree that this has been a nice a thread.

I rarely participate anymore but Aaron's wonderful initial post got my juices flowing again.

Namaste.

 

Hello Steve,

 

Compassion is the expression of empathy and sympathy by definition. I think when we say we feel compassion we are actually talking about empathy or sympathy, however I think many people, if told, "I felt a tremendous amount of compassion for that person." Would understand what you were talking about.

 

Aaron

[xenolith]

Steve, you've got much understood IMO. What one acquires subsequnt to birth is largely detractatory to self awareness. You mentioned stripping away conditioning...crown center awarweness experiences do just that...that's the shortcut...but I digress...such is not neccessary to live one's Life exercising compassion...one need only allow their heart to lead their actions...even the socially conditioned can get there with sufficeint encouragement.

 

So again I say, let your heart play!

 

Lotsa Love Friends,

 

xeno

[strawdog65]

Steve, you've got much understood IMO. What one acquires subsequnt to birth is largely detractatory to self awareness. You mentioned stripping away conditioning...crown center awarweness experiences do just that...that's the shortcut...but I digress...such is not neccessary to live one's Life exercising compassion...one need only allow their heart to lead their actions...even the socially conditioned can get there with sufficeint encouragement.

 

So again I say, let your heart play!

 

Lotsa Love Friends,

 

xeno

 

Hi Xenolith!

 

I feel that the process of acquiring "knowledge" is

the biggest stumbling block of returning to our most

natural state of awareness in it's simplest form.

 

The uncontrived, non- societarily structured,

innate empathetic mind, and non-judgmental

state of a child.

 

Empathy, compassion, impartiality, acceptance,

all placed within the mold of a human body.

That human living without desiring other than what

is present in that moment, and being content as such.

 

Compassion for others comes naturally when you have

conquered the idea that we are more or better than others.

When we have contentment and love others as our own body,

we consider others to be a real part of our selves.

 

As children we would feel the sadness of others pain on an intuitively

innate empathic level, no one needed to tell us how we should feel.

It's only after we have grown, after we have experienced the idea

of " I am separate" do we start to cut ourselves off from what was

once a natural state of feeling for others.

 

Being born complete... we seek to return, all our lives.

 

Peace!

[Marblehead]

Hello Marblehead,

 

I think talking about compassion without discussing empathy is moot. As I said, detachment isn't about regarding things without affection, but rather being able to regard everyone with affection. In that light, I think it follows that one will feel empathy, because empathy is the foundation of compassion. Compassion is the action that results from empathy, and in fact empathy is the exact thing that springs from awareness. Empathy is the one emotion that defies morality and ethics, it's the feeling one has towards another's suffering.

 

Aaron

 

Hi Aaron,

 

Nope, I can't argue against what you have said here. It just sounds to darned logical to me.

[Marblehead]

Is compassion an emotion? Or is it empathy in action?

I feel empathy but I act in a compassionate manner.

I think the two are intimately related.

It's all just word salad anyway.

It is good to take the time to be considerate of others and act accordingly.

I agree that this has been a nice a thread.

I rarely participate anymore but Aaron's wonderful initial post got my juices flowing again.

Namaste.

 

Hi Steve,

 

Yes, I just responded to Aaron's post. In my actions I rarely even consider either concept when I am helping others. I just do what I can with what I have and leave it at that.

 

And I agree, Aaron has provided some very good input that has cause this thread to be as productive as it has been.

 

And I will here thank you for joining the discussion as well.

 

Hehehe. I really don't know if compassion can be considered an emotion or not. I just felt like saying that at the time. Yes, I do like how you expressed it with your question, that is, compassion being empathy in action.

[xenolith]

Hi Xenolith!

 

I feel that the process of acquiring "knowledge" is

the biggest stumbling block of returning to our most

natural state of awareness in it's simplest form.

 

The uncontrived, non- societarily structured,

innate empathetic mind, and non-judgmental

state of a child.

 

Empathy, compassion, impartiality, acceptance,

all placed within the mold of a human body.

That human living without desiring other than what

is present in that moment, and being content as such.

 

Compassion for others comes naturally when you have

conquered the idea that we are more or better than others.

When we have contentment and love others as our own body,

we consider others to be a real part of our selves.

 

As children we would feel the sadness of others pain on an intuitively

innate empathic level, no one needed to tell us how we should feel.

It's only after we have grown, after we have experienced the idea

of " I am separate" do we start to cut ourselves off from what was

once a natural state of feeling for others.

 

Being born complete... we seek to return, all our lives.

 

Peace!

Yes!...beautiful, insightful comments, well could close the thread! Will try to add just a bit...

 

When one is born, so is one's ego...most of what happens subsequently nurtures the ego...and veils of illusion slip between one and the Tao. How long will be the road back to the Self? Lucky are they that perceive the veils before the Self is reduced to a character...deep Self inquiry is how...the meditative methods of the Taoists and Buddhists are well focused on early recognition...as are much of their teachings which seek to condition one toward Self awareness through ego-subjugation. Exercising compassion is both means and objective toward decommissioning one's ego and realizing one's Self...in the Tao...upon which, as you've so beautifully articulated, one has returned to their birth state, though now fully Self aware with mastery over their ego.

 

Conditioning is key. So let your heart play. It will re-learn to do so instinctively as it did when new. Veils dissolve.

 

Be well upon your path friends.

 

Love,

 

xeno

[Aaron]

I just wanted to thank everyone who's taken part in this thread. I think it was a wonderful exchange of ideas and I hope that what we've learned here isn't forgotten tomorrow. Again, thanks.

 

Aaron

[3bob]

...jumping in here

 

"I feel that the process of acquiring "knowledge" is

the biggest stumbling block of returning to our most

natural state of awareness in it's simplest form..." Strawdog

 

Then again ime what we aquire or learn is connected with the great and grand lessons of

unaquiring and unlearning, for without lessons such as those where is the completeness of wisdom?

And without wisdom how deep can compassion be - both in insight and in action?

 

Speaking of children, being a child is just a stage among many other stages, besides a good mother does not long tolerate her baby remaining a baby and being packed around on her hip or back when they get older!

(same with the Tao so to speak)

 

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" Mt 10:16

 

Om

[Marblehead]

Hi 3bob,

 

'Bout time you joined this discussion. Hehehe.

 

Yeah. When speaking to 'acquiring knowledge' I think it is important to distinguish between (useful) knowledge that moves us forward along our path and (useless) knowledge that either holds us back or even causes us to go backward.

[Aaron]

...jumping in here

 

"I feel that the process of acquiring "knowledge" is

the biggest stumbling block of returning to our most

natural state of awareness in it's simplest form..." Strawdog

 

Then again ime what we aquire or learn is connected with the great and grand lessons of

unaquiring and unlearning, for without lessons such as those where is the completeness of wisdom?

And without wisdom how deep can compassion be - both in insight and in action?

 

Speaking of children, being a child is just a stage among many other stages, besides a good mother does not long tolerate her baby remaining a baby and being packed around on her hip or back when they get older!

(same with the Tao so to speak)

 

"Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves" Mt 10:16

 

Om

 

Very good point 3Bob. There is that contradiction that in order to unlearn, we must first learn. I'm not sure what you mean by the "without wisdom how deep can compassion be", I think the expression of compassion shown by children is very deep indeed. (Wisdom is very much a construct that places value where there should be no value.) As far as the comments and discussion about childhood, I think that's a topic for another thread. I don't think what we do to our children, in any way is compassionate.

 

Aaron

Edited December 19, 2010 by Twinner

[Otis]

As far as the comments and discussion about childhood, I think that's a topic for another thread. I don't think what we do to our children, in any way is compassionate.

 

Aaron

Are you going to start a new thread on that? I'd love to take part in that discussion, as well!

[3bob]

Very good point 3Bob. There is that contradiction that in order to unlearn, we must first learn. I'm not sure what you mean by the "without wisdom how deep can compassion be", I think the expression of compassion shown by children is very deep indeed. (Wisdom is very much a construct that places value where there should be no value.) As far as the comments and discussion about childhood, I think that's a topic for another thread. I don't think what we do to our children, in any way is compassionate.

 

Aaron

 

Many "children" may not be as young as they appear but could be very old souls with certain inner wisdoms earned the hard way from many lives... somewhere I read that Lao Tzu was referred to or likened to as an old child.

 

(btw the wisdom I allude to is not mentally constructed per-se although mental experiences may be involved

or in the cauldron of transmutation) Strawdog brought up some idealism about children... and I don't mean to dampen anyones appreciation of that but it's partly seeing with rose colored glasses imo.

 

"I don't think what we do to our children, in any way is compassionate" Twinner

 

Hmm, Do you think what Tao does to us is in any way is compassionate? There is a Zen saying that goes something like, "No blame"

 

Om

Edited December 19, 2010 by 3bob