Compassion and Taoism

[3bob]

Hi 3bob,

 

'Bout time you joined this discussion. Hehehe.

 

Yeah. When speaking to 'acquiring knowledge' I think it is important to distinguish between (useful) knowledge that moves us forward along our path and (useless) knowledge that either holds us back or even causes us to go backward.

 

Hi MH,

I wonder, is there any knowledge that is really useless or are there just useless mis-applications or attachments to same? There is also that saying along the lines of, "one man's garbage is another man's treasure".

 

Om

[Aaron]

Many "children" may not be as young as they appear but could be very old souls with certain inner wisdoms earned the hard way from many lives... somewhere I read that Lao Tzu was referred to or likened to as an old child.

 

(btw the wisdom I allude to is not mentally constructed per-se although mental experiences may be involved

or in the cauldron of transmutation) Strawdog brought up some idealism about children... and I don't mean to dampen anyones appreciation of that but it's partly seeing with rose colored glasses imo.

 

"I don't think what we do to our children, in any way is compassionate" Twinner

 

Hmm, Do you think what Tao does to us is in any way is compassionate? There is a Zen saying that goes something like, "No blame"

 

Om

 

Hello 3bob,

 

Semantics aren't going to help us come to an agreement. You have a very different opinion about children than I do. I see us coming into the world as perfect as we'll ever be and very close to Tao. As we grow older, the lessons we are taught separate us from Tao and we begin to see ourselves as I's and not as one. That is what I refer to when I say what we do to our children is not compassionate. Intention doesn't determine compassion, it is the result of the action, whether it eases someone's suffering.

 

The Tao treats all things as equal, it hold no preference for one over the other. If you ask me whether it is compassionate, I will say, it depends on what you view as compassion. If you ask me whether or not compassion is an innate part of every human being, I will say, "Yes, undoubtedly yes!"

 

Aaron

Edited December 19, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Hi MH,

I wonder, is there any knowledge that is really useless or are there just useless mis-applications or attachments to same? There is also that saying along the lines of, "one man's garbage is another man's treasure".

 

Om

 

Fair question considering that I suggested that there is such a thing as useless knowledge. I use the terms 'useful' and useless' as that which helps us live our life and that which has no effect.

 

Example: I have the knowledge that one day our sun will no longer allow for life on earth. This will happen billions of years from now. Yes, it is interesting to know this. Does it help me live my life any better? No. Therefore the knowledge is useless.

 

Alternate example: I know that when I am driving my truck I should stop at red lights because if I just continue driving I will likely get involved in an accident and could possibly be killed. Does this help me live my life in a better way? Absolutely Yes. Therefore it is useful.

 

So it is "How does this knowledge help me?" Here once again, I am the center of my universe. But then, everyone else is the center of their universe so I suppose that the saying you quoted above could very well apply here.

[3bob]

[3bob]

Hello 3bob,

 

Semantics aren't going to help us come to an agreement. You have a very different opinion about children than I do. I see us coming into the world as perfect as we'll ever be and very close to Tao. As we grow older, the lessons we are taught separate us from Tao and we begin to see ourselves as I's and not as one. That is what I refer to when I say what we do to our children is not compassionate. Intention doesn't determine compassion, it is the result of the action, whether it eases someone's suffering.

 

The Tao treats all things as equal, it hold no preference for one over the other. If you ask me whether it is compassionate, I will say, it depends on what you view as compassion. If you ask me whether or not compassion is an innate part of every human being, I will say, "Yes, undoubtedly yes!"

 

Aaron

 

"Tao" in manifest aspects prefers or naturally evolves which also includes going against what could be called automatic-evolution at some point... Tao as unmanifest is not involved or evolved with such and as you say is perfect. Further, it's really all Tao manifesting as interplays of energy that is doing it if one can attain such a pov.

 

Hmm, opinions about children? How about raising two daughters through thick and thin and still helping them in their 20's?

 

Om

[Aaron]

"Tao" in manifest aspects prefers or naturally evolves which also includes going against what could be called automatic-evolution at some point... Tao as unmanifest is not involved or evolved with such and as you say is perfect. Further, it's really all Tao manifesting as interplays of energy that is doing it if one can attain such a pov.

 

Hmm, opinions about children? How about raising two daughters through thick and thin and still helping them in their 20's?

 

Om

 

Hello 3Bob,

 

Tao is manifest in everything, of course, but there is way to act (or not act) that's in accordance with Tao. That is my point, that what we learn as children is to act out of accord with Tao. This doesn't mean that anyone whose raised children has done something wrong by teaching them about right and wrong, but rather that humanity leads us away from Tao and the only way to achieve harmony with Tao is if we can see beyond ethics, virtue, and morality. You can have your view point, I just don't see things the way you do. Rather than try to prove each other wrong, I say let it go, so we can enjoy this moment for what it is.

 

Aaron

[3bob]

Hello 3Bob,

 

Tao is manifest in everything, of course, but there is way to act (or not act) that's in accordance with Tao. That is my point, that what we learn as children is to act out of accord with Tao. This doesn't mean that anyone whose raised children has done something wrong by teaching them about right and wrong, but rather that humanity leads us away from Tao and the only way to achieve harmony with Tao is if we can see beyond ethics, virtue, and morality. You can have your view point, I just don't see things the way you do. Rather than try to prove each other wrong, I say let it go, so we can enjoy this moment for what it is.

 

Aaron

 

Hello Aaron,

 

Why would or could an aspect of Tao seemingly act out of accord with the great Tao... me thinks because the pov is not large enough. And I'll modify my previous post to say that even certain manifest aspects that seem out of accord as you describe, are also perfect and perfectly inter-playing if the pov is large enough.

 

Om

Edited December 20, 2010 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Hello Aaron,

 

Why would or could an aspect of Tao seemingly act out of accord with the great Tao... me thinks because the pov is not large enough. And I'll modify my previous post to say that even certain manifest aspects that seem out of accord as you describe, are also perfect and perfectly inter-playing if the pov is large enough.

 

Om

 

This is a point I try to make on occasion. Every act by every manifest thing is within the realm of Tao. From the point of view of Tao there is no "good/bad", "right/wrong".

 

It is from the point of view of Te (Virtue or the Way) that there are variances. If we act out of accord from Te then we are not following the Way but we are still with the realm of Tao.

[3bob]

This is a point I try to make on occasion. Every act by every manifest thing is within the realm of Tao. From the point of view of Tao there is no "good/bad", "right/wrong".

 

It is from the point of view of Te (Virtue or the Way) that there are variances. If we act out of accord from Te then we are not following the Way but we are still with the realm of Tao.

 

Hi MH,

 

I pretty much agree with you here although to me there is also the giant step of "The One", thus every manifest thing could be said to be within the realm of the One, while the One could be said to be the first and the last of the Tao as manifest. (which includes all interplays of all energies being summed up within or under the One)

 

Good day

Om

[Marblehead]

Hi MH,

 

I pretty much agree with you here although to me there is also the giant step of "The One", thus every manifest thing could be said to be within the realm of the One, while the One could be said to be the first and the last of the Tao as manifest. (which includes all interplays of all energies being summed up within or under the One)

 

Good day

Om

 

But of course, Bob.

 

One. Even from a purely scientific point of view, there was singularity (One) and then the Big Bang happened.

 

Of course, there are two theories as to how all will end: a cold death (the universe continues to expand) and the Big Crunch (the universe stops expanding and returns to a singularity to start all over again).

 

Of course, I hold to the second because it is consistent with Taoist concepts of reversion and cycles.

 

But then, I have no idea what this has to do with the Taoist concept of compassion but none-the-less ...

 

Well, maybe it is a reflection that the concept of compassion does not exist from the point of view of the Way of Tao.

 

Remember "strawdogs".

Edited December 20, 2010 by Marblehead

[Aaron]

Hello Aaron,

 

Why would or could an aspect of Tao seemingly act out of accord with the great Tao... me thinks because the pov is not large enough. And I'll modify my previous post to say that even certain manifest aspects that seem out of accord as you describe, are also perfect and perfectly inter-playing if the pov is large enough.

 

Om

 

 

Hello 3bob,

 

Some things just can't be explained (honestly they can't) you either understand them or you don't. I think this is one of those things.

 

Aaron

[Otis]

I see us coming into the world as perfect as we'll ever be and very close to Tao. As we grow older, the lessons we are taught separate us from Tao and we begin to see ourselves as I's and not as one. That is what I refer to when I say what we do to our children is not compassionate. Intention doesn't determine compassion, it is the result of the action, whether it eases someone's suffering.

 

The Tao treats all things as equal, it hold no preference for one over the other. If you ask me whether it is compassionate, I will say, it depends on what you view as compassion. If you ask me whether or not compassion is an innate part of every human being, I will say, "Yes, undoubtedly yes!"

 

Aaron

This reflects my view as well.

[Otis]

Fair question considering that I suggested that there is such a thing as useless knowledge. I use the terms 'useful' and useless' as that which helps us live our life and that which has no effect.

 

Example: I have the knowledge that one day our sun will no longer allow for life on earth. This will happen billions of years from now. Yes, it is interesting to know this. Does it help me live my life any better? No. Therefore the knowledge is useless.

 

Alternate example: I know that when I am driving my truck I should stop at red lights because if I just continue driving I will likely get involved in an accident and could possibly be killed. Does this help me live my life in a better way? Absolutely Yes. Therefore it is useful.

 

So it is "How does this knowledge help me?" Here once again, I am the center of my universe. But then, everyone else is the center of their universe so I suppose that the saying you quoted above could very well apply here.

Good distinctions.

[Otis]

Tao is manifest in everything, of course, but there is way to act (or not act) that's in accordance with Tao. That is my point, that what we learn as children is to act out of accord with Tao. This doesn't mean that anyone whose raised children has done something wrong by teaching them about right and wrong, but rather that humanity leads us away from Tao and the only way to achieve harmony with Tao is if we can see beyond ethics, virtue, and morality. You can have your view point, I just don't see things the way you do. Rather than try to prove each other wrong, I say let it go, so we can enjoy this moment for what it is.

 

Aaron

Maybe I should wait until there is a "raising children" thread (or start one myself), but I want to jump in here. (Warning: some gross generalizations ahead).

 

The problem is not that we want our kids to learn about virtue; it's that we enforce virtue. What we really teach kids is: "do what I say, and you'll make mommy/daddy happy." We teach obedience, rather than foster awareness about consequences. Morality is usually taught in context of an authority figure; that's a big part of why new parents tend to turn back to their religion of birth, because they don't know how to teach morality without it. The only morality they were taught themselves, is that which is reinforced by the concept of God the rewarder/punisher.

 

The other lynchpin in moral education is the Western version of Karma, what Xtians would call "fairness" or "Justice". It is the magical belief that if you just do "good" that you will be rewarded with pleasure, and that if you do "bad", that you will be rewarded with pain. What a shock, for every kid, as they emerge from their parents' belief bubble and find that the world does not work like that at all.

 

This is why shame and guilt are such potent teaching tools for parents, because it's a way of inculcating pain (from within) as an automated response to "immorality". The only way to keep you obedient to my concepts of right, is to teach you to be your own punisher, in lieu of me. I will even teach you that your inner punisher is actually the voice of God, letting you know that you have displeased him.

 

How to raise kids to recognize and embrace virtue, without the carrot and stick of authority figures and shame? That's the material of a full thread, but I'll try to summarize my view: Teach them awareness by exposing them to as many points of view, as many different facets of life, as possible. Always point out (preferably without punishment) how other people might view their actions. Don't make the lessons black and white, don't talk down to the kids, always treat them like the Buddha that they already are. IMO, what they need from us is guidance in maturation, not a whole conceptual framework on what is real, and what is right.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Otis

[C T]

Within the framework of true spiritual development, at the pinnacle, it is very possible to reach a point where Compassion becomes a choiceless, motiveless state of being, whereby this 'being' will no longer be an individualistic sort of beingness, but more of feeling (feeling does not seem apt here, but at the moment i cant think of another word. Realizing, perhaps) a collective sort of beingness. I think Aaron mentioned something similar in the opening post, and he said it so well.

 

Imo, for the purest Compassion to be present, one's 'small self' has to be lost - and 'lost' here encompasses the whole spectrum of its meaning, including unequivocally losing all sense of self-reference, of separateness, and also a spontaneous, non-thought reflex of a willingness to exchange oneself for the instant, safe welfare of another/others, regardless of circumstances, and with no measure of indecision. Sometimes life offers direct, experiential insights to a few fortunate ones into such eruptions of loss of self, but many have been to the brink, only to swerve and do a u-turn right just before making the ultimate leap. If only.....

Edited December 21, 2010 by CowTao

[xenolith]

Within the framework of true spiritual development, at the pinnacle, it is very possible to reach a point where Compassion becomes a choiceless, motiveless state of being, whereby this 'being' will no longer be an individualistic sort of beingness, but more of feeling (feeling does not seem apt here, but at the moment i cant think of another word. Realizing, perhaps) a collective sort of beingness. I think Aaron mentioned something similar in the opening post, and he said it so well.

 

Imo, for the purest Compassion to be present, one's 'small self' has to be lost - and 'lost' here encompasses the whole spectrum of its meaning, including unequivocally losing all sense of self-reference, of separateness, and also a spontaneous, non-thought reflex of a willingness to exchange oneself for the instant, safe welfare of another/others, regardless of circumstances, and with no measure of indecision. Sometimes life offers direct, experiential insights to a few fortunate ones into such eruptions of loss of self, but many have been to the brink, only to swerve and do a u-turn right just before making the ultimate leap. If only.....

Hi CowTao,

 

In your first paragraph you refer to "... it is very possible...", in your second paragraph you refer to "...a few fortunate ones...".

 

One would rationally conclude "it" (being, paraphrasing now...a self-less, compassionate person) is "very possible for the fortunate few"...is that what you meant to convey? If so, what makes the few fortunate? If not, please clarify meaning.

 

Also curious...do you really think that many have been to the brink of the ultimate leap? I think very few have, would love to think otherwise, please help me to so think.

 

Much thanks for your kind replies,

 

xeno

[Aaron]

Hello folks,

 

One thing that has provided me with a great deal of hope (whether that's good or bad is up to you) is the amount of people that have contributed to this debate and the relatively compassionate discourse. I think one thing this thread shows, is that when people become aware of compassion and discuss it, that it tends to present itself without much intent at all.

 

Aaron

Edited December 21, 2010 by Twinner

[Marblehead]

Hello folks,

 

One thing that has provided me with a great deal of hope (whether that's good or bad is up to you) is the amount of people that have contributed to this debate and the relatively compassionate discourse. I think one thing this thread shows, is that when people become aware of compassion and discuss it, that it tends to present itself without much intent at all.

 

Aaron

 

This is the key, I think. If we have to think about being compassionate before acting then it really isn't true compassion.

[Otis]

If we have to think about being compassionate before acting then it really isn't true compassion.

I suppose this is true. It isn't relevant, however, in my personal practice, because I don't see any point in distinguishing "true compassion". I'll take what I can get.

 

I remind myself to be compassionate, because my historical habits don't go in that direction at all, sad to say. What I am doing is just slowing myself down with the reminder, to see the situation from a less ego-centric point of view, before acting out of my old habits.

 

Neither am I acting against my own desires, just reminding myself that compassionate actions are available in my repertoire, even if my instinct for compassion is not all grown up in me yet.

[Marblehead]

Excellent response Otis.

 

I am sure that you know by now that I enjoy presenting an extreme view of a concept just to see how others deal with it.

 

Your response sounded very honest and sincere. I like that.

[Otis]

I am sure that you know by now that I enjoy presenting an extreme view of a concept just to see how others deal with it.

That's good. Keeps things lively!

[Aaron]

Hello Folks,

 

With the recent apparent rise in dissent regarding some topics, I thought it might be a good time to discuss the topic of Compassion again. Rather than start a new topic I will just refer to this one. In my recent experiences in this thread I can honestly say that I forgot about the need for compassion when dealing with others. It's hard sometimes, especially when you feel under attack, to show compassion for others, but perhaps that is the most important time to show compassion.

 

For me the truest form of compassion, as I stated originally in this thread, is not one that is based on a moral requirement, but rather comes from deep within, compassion that is realized because one sees another suffering or because one has caused another to suffer and wants to sincerely ease that suffering.

 

I think that an expression of compassion is tolerance, allowing others to believe what they believe without passing judgement on that belief. After all beliefs don't hurt people, people hurt people. I know that sounds corny, but it's true.

 

I think compassion is lost in absolutes. When one feels that they are right without question, then where is the room for compassion in that knowledge? When one feels that they can press their views on another without considering the effects it has on another, then where is the room for compassion. It is only by accepting that, even if we believe we are correct, that we can still allow others to believe differently that compassion can be realized.

 

I will try very hard to remember this because after all, we are all It and it's only by understanding this that we can truly allow compassion to arise and blossom in its highest form.

 

Aaron

 

edit- Not to be sappy, but I do love you all and I wish you the best.

[mYTHmAKER]

Even me ?

[Aaron]

Even me ?

 

Yes even you.

 

Aaron

[Marblehead]

Hi Aaron,

 

All valid and worthy what you have said.

 

But then I recall a statement, "When in Rome be as the Romans."

 

When the person we are speaking with wants to go into the gutter it is only fair and compassionate to go down into the gutter with them.

 

I have been known to tell a person that what they said is bullshit. Is that being compassionate? Is that being tolerant? No. But it was my honest opinion and understanding at the time.

 

But I would agree that attacking the individual instead of what was said would be wrong, intolerant, and uncompassionate.

 

So you go ahead and love us all but please watch your back.