The Twelve Steps and Tao

[Makyea]

These are really nice. I think it could be used for more than just recovery from addiction but also for recovery from self delusions and the need for a materialistic way of life-which is an addiction in itself-that many people including myself struggle with. I think that if there were programs that helped rid people of daily illusions and helped to show them their path that was as widely available as AA there would be much less ignorance to the importance of having your own life philosophy. Taoism might not be every person's answer, but this could help people find their own truths. For some self-worth grows only from a helping hand.

[Everything]

There are no steps to the Tao, so you are right, but there is a program of recovery that is based on steps, that's where the steps come from.

 

Aaron

Yeah, and those are the 6 steps, which in my eyes are also a cycle.

Just review your past experiences or frustration when it came to failures within certain areas. I forgot where I got this cycle but seems to be universal for everyone, I have found. Amazing...

Perhaps the 6 step cycle is too abstract and lacks details in your eyes? Sure, but thats a sacrifice. To make it more durable, lasting, effective, more rememberable, easy to understand.

Edited December 16, 2010 by Everything

[Aaron]

Hello folks... I got in late. I didn't miss anyone's posts, just haven't had time to reply. I'll try and respond tomorrow. I hope everyone is doing well.

 

Aaron

[zerostao]

twinner in number nine you are concerend and rightfully so, about causing harm to "those people"

my question is what if doing so causes harm to yourself?

[Aaron]

twinner in number nine you are concerend and rightfully so, about causing harm to "those people"

my question is what if doing so causes harm to yourself?

 

 

Hello Zerostao,

 

It depends on the circumstances and it's ultimately up to the person who is making the amends. People debate about this a lot. For me, it's not an x=y+z equation. You have to use common sense, that's why it's good to have someone whose been sober awhile helping you out, because it allows you to use them as a sounding board.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I should clarify it's up to the person who is making the amends to decide whether or not he should make the amends. I do feel that it is ultimately to their benefit to make every amends possible. This step is about cleaning up the wreckage of the past, not avoiding consequences, so when I say use common sense, I mean you need to look at what needs to be done, compared to the consequences of performing that amends.

 

An example would be if you stole a car and went joy riding when you were eighteen. If you damaged that car, then you should probably make amends for it. There are several different ways you could make those amends. You could walk up to the people's house and do it face to face, risking incarceration, this would be the most direct route. However I might suggest figuring out the costs of the damages and mailing cash to the person whose car you stole, along with a letter of amends. Some might argue against this method and it really is up to the individual, but I think most people in the program wouldn't see a problem with the latter resolution, because the purpose is to make amends, not cause yourself to suffer any more than you have to.

Edited December 17, 2010 by Twinner

[zerostao]

Hello Zerostao,

 

It depends on the circumstances and it's ultimately up to the person who is making the amends. People debate about this a lot. For me, it's not an x=y+z equation. You have to use common sense, that's why it's good to have someone whose been sober awhile helping you out, because it allows you to use them as a sounding board.

 

Aaron

thanks for the reply twinner, and i agree this is a difficult choice one makes. i look at the 12 steps as distilled wisdom worked out over time and not to be totally set in stone. every system needs updated from time to time. i am sure your ammended version will resonnate with a particular set of folks. i also agree it is good to bounce ideas off someone who has similar experiences and experience if you have selected the right individual. responsibility and hopefully understanding is partnered this way.

[Aaron]

Hello people,

 

Thank you for your responses.

 

Blasto, in regards to your alternate step three, I don't care for the word ego, my goal is to keep it as simple as possible, but in the same light, that may just be an issue with me, if a lot of people felt the need for the inclusion of ego, I wouldn't oppose it.

 

Fivelementtao- I'm not sure if self-imposed would be a good choice in this case, I also don't believe that resentments is the entirety of the step, which is why I stated it the way I did. My belief is that the purpose of the step is really to inquire into the nature of one's self, to understand what you are doing that is causing you and others to suffer.

 

With that said, if other people like these alternatives, then so be it. I am just stating the reason I worded them the way they are.

 

Aaron

[Encephalon]

Hello people,

 

Thank you for your responses.

 

Blasto, in regards to your alternate step three, I don't care for the word ego, my goal is to keep it as simple as possible, but in the same light, that may just be an issue with me, if a lot of people felt the need for the inclusion of ego, I wouldn't oppose it.

 

Aaron

 

The alternative I posted is for Step Two; I'm not the author. It is used by other groups as a tool for actually facilitating simplicity. How exactly do you qualify a Higher Power as distinct from the individual?

[Aaron]

The alternative I posted is for Step Two; I'm not the author. It is used by other groups as a tool for actually facilitating simplicity. How exactly do you qualify a Higher Power as distinct from the individual?

 

Hmm... that's an interesting question. I think when you define way, then you have a conscious shift that occurs, that what has gotten the person in trouble so far is the "way" they've been living and what is needed is another "way" of living. If one chooses to pursue that through God, Buddha, Tao, or some other method, then that's up to them. The important thing to come away from step two with is an understanding that one needs to recognize that there is something that can restore them to sanity. I think humility is a big part of this step and that if someone has pursued the first step and admitted that they've got a problem that they can't control, then coming to terms with the second step is much easier.

 

Aaron

[Aaron]

I was thinking of starting a new thread about the first step as it's presented in this thread, in particular a discussion of the wording and how it should be presented. I had planned on writing a book (for no profit) regarding recovery, using these alternative steps, so any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

Aaron

Edited December 21, 2010 by Twinner