[TTC Study] Chapter 9 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Aaron]

Here's Chapter Nine... I look forward to your discussion.

 

(Translated by John C. H. Wu)

 

As for holding to fullness,

Far better were it to stop in time!

 

Keep on beating and sharpening a sword,

And the edge cannot be preserved for long.

 

Fill your house with gold and jade,

And it can no longer be guarded.

 

Set store by your riches and honour,

And you will only reap a crop of calamities.

 

Here is the Way of Heaven:

When you have done your work, retire!

 

 

(Translated by Gia-fu Feng and Jane English)

 

Better to stop short than fill to the brim.

Oversharpen the blade, and the edge will soon blunt.

Amass a store of gold and jade, and no one can protect it.

Claim wealth and titles, and disaster will follow.

Retire when the work is done.

This is the way of heaven.

 

 

(Translated by Robert G. Henricks- Note this translation is from an earlier version of the TTC and may differ from the others.)

 

1. To hold it upright and fill it,

2. Is not so good as stopping [in time].

3. When you pound it out and give it a point,

4. It won't be preserved very long.

5. When gold and jade fill your rooms,

6. You'll never be able to protect them.

7. Arrogance and pride with wealth and rank,

8. On their own bring on disaster.

9. When the deed is accomplished you retire;

10. Such is Heaven's Way!

 

 

-------------

 

 

 

Aaron

Edited December 13, 2010 by Twinner

[rene]

Seems all pretty straightforward to me. Maybe other renditions vary, but these three don't seem to between themselves.

[Marblehead]

One of the commentaries I read by a translator concerning this chapter regarding over-doing it was: (I paraphrase) What a different world this would be if only Hitler would have known when to stop.

 

In our own 'real life' we so often over-do things thereby either destroying it before we stop or we fine-tune it to such a degree that it lasts only a very short time.

 

We need to know when enough is enough. We need to know when to stop.

[manitou]

Temper a sword-edge to its very sharpest, and the edge will not last long.

 

I think this can also be analogized to never being the first. By speaking with a sharp tongue, by trying to display our wit and cleverness; this does not last long. At some point the way of nature is for the storm to be over. For gentility to set back in. For calm to prevail. Or else, the end result is always failure, collapse. Yutang uses the analogy of stretching a bow to the very full, and you will wish you had stopped in time....success contains the seeds of downfall, as he would say. Our pride. And when a person places their stock in outer treasure rather than inner treasure, there is no place for contentment, the concept of enough, or feeling that anything is safe. We have turned over our inner peace of heart to outer circumstances.

[dawei]

Here is Hendricks based on the Guodian:

 

(Translated by Robert G. Henricks)

 

1. To accumulate until you have filled it,

2. Is not so good as stopping [in time].

3. When swift flowing waters gather against it,

4. It cannot hold out very long.

5. When gold and jade fill your chambers,

6. No one can safeguard them.

7. Arrogance resulting from wealth and rank,

8. On its own brings disaster.

9. When the deed is done withdraw;

10. Such is Heaven's Way!

 

Line 1 and 3 have different characters.

[Marblehead]

Yes, lines 3 & 4 are significant.

 

I actually prefer this to the other, I guess simply because of the use of the water symbolism.

 

Thanks for sharing that.

[dawei]

yea, I also prefer this water symbolism.

 

One problem I see is that the first character of the first line seems elusive. I've read Hendricks' comment in his Guodian as to what he uses but it sounds more like guess work.

 

What we're left with is an image of filling something to just the right amount and being done with it; but this doesn't really reconcile with the previous chapters on how Dao is empty (even though full). This conveys fill up just enough and your done.

 

So wondering if anyone has thoughts in this direction.

[Aaron]

yea, I also prefer this water symbolism.

 

One problem I see is that the first character of the first line seems elusive. I've read Hendricks' comment in his Guodian as to what he uses but it sounds more like guess work.

 

What we're left with is an image of filling something to just the right amount and being done with it; but this doesn't really reconcile with the previous chapters on how Dao is empty (even though full). This conveys fill up just enough and your done.

 

So wondering if anyone has thoughts in this direction.

 

 

I think the issue here stems from the idea that the jar or cup is representing Tao, but in my opinion, it's merely a metaphor for stopping in time.

 

Aaron

Edited December 19, 2010 by Twinner

[Procurator]

yea, I also prefer this water symbolism.

 

One problem I see is that the first character of the first line seems elusive. I've read Hendricks' comment in his Guodian as to what he uses but it sounds more like guess work.

 

What we're left with is an image of filling something to just the right amount and being done with it; but this doesn't really reconcile with the previous chapters on how Dao is empty (even though full). This conveys fill up just enough and your done.

 

Hendrik's mistake is in overlooking a fairly rare usage of 已 as "to get rid of". e.g 三已之 (letting him go 3 times). that is why his first line is nonsensical. but in fact it says "planting something and seeing it grow to the point of excess is not as good as getting rid of it altogether" 植而盈之，不若其已

 

then it will jive with the last line "removing yr body".

[Marblehead]

Interesting thought y'all.

 

Y'all have caused me to go back and prefer English/Feng's first line. That speaks better to the concept that is being presented in the remainder of the chapter.

 

I have always read the chapters as separate concepts and have never tried to link any kind of flow from one chapter to another.

[Aaron]

Tian Shi,

 

Hmm... I don't read chinese, but that seems like kind of stretch. Are you sure you're not applying a mystical principle where none exists? (i.e. modifying the first line so it justifies your interpretation of the last?)

 

Aaron

[dawei]

Hendrik's mistake is in overlooking a fairly rare usage of 已 as "to get rid of". e.g 三已之 (letting him go 3 times). that is why his first line is nonsensical. but in fact it says "planting something and seeing it grow to the point of excess is not as good as getting rid of it altogether" 植而盈之，不若其已

 

then it will jive with the last line "removing yr body".

I'm glad you brought up 已 because I was considering why Wang Bi, in his commentary suggests one is "better off with nothing" (instead of the idea of just stopping). "getting rid of it altogether" explains it .

 

I agree the first character zhi (植) means a plant (or grow), yet Hendricks argues for accumulate to fit to the "filling" vs "stopping" idea.

 

I found that another zhi (殖) is also considered and carries meanings of breed, reproduce, yield, planting, colonize.

See http://www.zdic.net/zd/zi/ZdicE6ZdicAEZdic96.htm

 

The Wang Bi first character is Chi (持) to mean 'hold' or 'support' and so one can see how this easily gets into the idea of holding something that is being filled. Also, WB makes a reference to DDJ 38 不失德 (not to lose De-virtue). So again, one can see his influence on the text is to emphasis "holding on and not losing something", while the original does not appear to emphasize that.

[dawei]

Tian Shi,

 

Hmm... I don't read chinese, but that seems like kind of stretch. Are you sure you're not applying a mystical principle where none exists? (i.e. modifying the first line so it justifies your interpretation of the last?)

 

Aaron

Actually, based on the character 植 (plant or grow), Tianshi's translation here is the most straightforward I have seen from him

 

This really bothered me that the original character was changed so much without much basis (from my research). Hendricks was stretching his application, IMO; maybe too many are following WB's ideas to fit his interpretation

 

I am losing faith in Hendricks as the chapters go on

[Marblehead]

I am losing faith in Hendricks as the chapters go on

 

Hehehe. Keep the faith!

[Procurator]

 

The Wang Bi first character is Chi (持) to mean 'hold' or 'support' and so one can see how this easily gets into the idea of holding something that is being filled. Also, WB makes a reference to DDJ 38 不失德 (not to lose De-virtue). So again, one can see his influence on the text is to emphasis "holding on and not losing something", while the original does not appear to emphasize that.

20. 持盈 [chi2ying2], v.i., maintain a good luck or success: 持盈保泰 maintain good luck by restraint.

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/

 

i have not read WB's commentary but it seems that much of DDJ has lost meaning by his time. He got the first one right thou, per you. It would be interesting to see what he has to say about the last line here.

Edited December 20, 2010 by TianShi

[dawei]

20. 持盈 [chi2ying2], v.i., maintain a good luck or success: 持盈保泰 maintain good luck by restraint.

http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexis/Lindict/

 

i have not read WB's commentary but it seems that much of DDJ has lost meaning by his time. He got the first one right thou, per you. It would be interesting to see what he has to say about the last line here.

What last line, since what you write here is the first two characters?

 

You mean the very last line of the entire chapter?

 

I'll go with that idea in case that is what you meant:

 

WB Text [Tr. Wagner]

功遂身退 - To withdraw [as a ruler] with one's person once the task is achieved

天之道載 - That is the Way of Heaven

 

WB Notes [Tr. Wagner]

The four seasons alternate, when the task [of one of them] is completed, there is a change [to the next one].

 

Wagner interprets this in light of a line from Sima Qian's history (史记): "In the sequence of the four seasons, the [season] that has completed it's task departs"

[Procurator]

What last line, since what you write here is the first two characters?

 

You mean the very last line of the entire chapter?

yes that is what i meant thank you very much:)

 

i think what is worth noticeing here that in all excavated versions as opposed to the received version

持而盈之，不如其已；揣而銳之，不可長保。金玉滿堂，莫之能守；富貴而驕，自遺其咎。功遂身退天之道。

 

a) all lines are 8 characters the last line is made 8 character artificially, by inserting a filler character .

 

in the standard version thou its 7 characters, so its in all likelihood an explanatory early comment "when the merits are fulfilled -the body retreats back to Heaven to join Dao". and WB corroborates that by 載 ascend

Edited December 20, 2010 by TianShi

[lienshan]

Here is Hendricks based on the Guodian:

 

(Translated by Robert G. Henricks)

 

1. To accumulate until you have filled it,

2. Is not so good as stopping [in time].

3. When swift flowing waters gather against it,

4. It cannot hold out very long.

5. When gold and jade fill your chambers,

6. No one can safeguard them.

7. Arrogance resulting from wealth and rank,

8. On its own brings disaster.

9. When the deed is done withdraw;

10. Such is Heaven's Way!

 

Line 1 and 3 have different characters.

The Guodian chapter 9

 

The disregardfulness of rising and flooding doesn't stop the torrent of water

and the indefensibleness of riches doesn't overflow a house, that no one is able to guard.

Self-confidence of helpful blessings is the mistake of self-disrespect like

the body of a successful waterway is the way of a retired heaven.

 

Henricks has cut Laozi's 2 great sentences into 10 not so great slices of

[Marblehead]

Well, I see five concepts presented by all three of the start-off translators. I think Hendricks handled them very well.

 

[lienshan]

Well, I see five concepts presented by all three of the start-off translators.

I think Hendricks handled them very well.

 

Two of Henricks five conceps:

 

5. When gold and jade fill your chambers,

6. No one can safeguard them.

 

Can I walk into Fort Knox and pick up all the gold I want?

 

7. Arrogance resulting from wealth and rank,

8. On its own brings disaster.

 

Does arrogance not resulting from wealth and rang on its own not bring disaster?

 

[Marblehead]

Two of Henricks five conceps:

 

5. When gold and jade fill your chambers,

6. No one can safeguard them.

 

Can I walk into Fort Knox and pick up all the gold I want?

 

7. Arrogance resulting from wealth and rank,

8. On its own brings disaster.

 

Does arrogance not resulting from wealth and rang on its own not bring disaster?

 

 

Hehehe. Hey!, let's be fair now. Fort Know didn't exist 2500 years ago.

 

And yes, arrogance on its own brings disaster. But arrogance based on materialism is most fleeting indeed.

[lienshan]

Hey!, let's be fair now.

I've ruined the translations of five concepts presented by all three of the start-off translators

by asking two simple questions? Hey!, please be fair and ruin my translation with 1 or 2 questions?

 

The disregardfulness of rising and flooding doesn't stop the torrent of water

and the indefensibleness of riches doesn't overflow a house, that no one is able to guard.

Self-confidence of helpful blessings is the mistake of self-disrespect like

the body of a successful waterway is the way of a retired heaven.

 

Hendrik's mistake is in overlooking a fairly rare usage of 已 as "to get rid of". e.g 三已之 (letting him go 3 times). that is why his first line is nonsensical. but in fact it says "planting something and seeing it grow to the point of excess is not as good as getting rid of it altogether" 植而盈之，不若其已

The wordorder of first line's first seven characters is strange (from a photograph of the slip):

 

zhi er ying zhi bu bu ruo 植而盈之不不若 = 植而盈之不(不若) translated 植而盈之(不若)不

 

The two "bu bu" looks like a scribal mistake and one of them is omitted in the later versions,

but Laozi used a special grammar rule known from e.g. Mencius:

 

When "ruo" means "if" then is "ruo" treated adverbial e.g. negated by the negative "bu"

and the position of "ruo" meaning "if" is not where it belongs, but in the next position!

 

I've translated "bu ruo" (not if) as "disregardfulness", because it's a noun treated adverbial.

Edited August 12, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

I've ruined the translations of five concepts presented by all three of the start-off translators by asking two simple questions? Hey!, please be fair and ruin my translation with 1 or 2 questions?

 

Not gonna' work because I don't read Chinese. All I can do is speak to your English translation.

 

Okay. Piece by piece:

 

The disregardfulness of rising and flooding doesn't stop the torrent of water

 

If you are disregarding it how do you know there is a torrent of water? Are you pretending water doesn't exist? We are not Buddhists. Water is real. To disregard a danger is foolish.

 

The indefensibleness of riches doesn't overflow a house, that no one is able to guard.

 

Really bad grammer. Hehehe. Actually, the sentence doesn't even make any sense.

 

Self-confidence of helpful blessings is the mistake of self-disrespect like

the body of a successful waterway is the way of a retired heaven.

 

Now please tell me what the heck that means. Self-confidence and helpful blessings are contradictory terms. What does a successful waterway have to do with a retired heaven? What is a retired heaven? What is a successful waterway? WTF?

[lienshan]

The disregardfulness of rising and flooding doesn't stop the torrent of water

 

If you are disregarding it how do you know there is a torrent of water? Are you pretending water doesn't exist? We are not Buddhists. Water is real. To disregard a danger is foolish.

"Water is real. To disregard a danger is foolish." I agree.

 

The indefensibleness of riches doesn't overflow a house, that no one is able to guard.

 

Really bad grammer. Hehehe. Actually, the sentence doesn't even make any sense.

I've kept the grammatical structure of of the 2 sentences in classical chinese.

I read "a house" as an image meaning "a human body".

 

Self-confidence of helpful blessings is the mistake of self-disrespect like

the body of a successful waterway is the way of a retired heaven.

 

Now please tell me what the heck that means. Self-confidence and helpful blessings are contradictory terms. What does a successful waterway have to do with a retired heaven? What is a retired heaven? What is a successful waterway? WTF?

I read "the body of a successful waterway" as an image of "the ability to swim".

 

That'll say my reading of the two chapter 9 sentences put in my own words:

 

What is most valuable not if but when flooding:

 

A prayer performed in a righteonuos way?

A lot of heavy gold and jade?

The ability to swim?

 

Those able to swim will maybe later say: My prayer helped me or My riches helped me .

But after the flood, what do those not able to swim, the not-survivers, say?

Edited August 13, 2011 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

But after the flood, what do those not able to swim, the not-survivers, say?

 

Yeah, after the flood there will be sunshine - a chance for a new beginning.

 

I like new beginnings. I am living my third life now. The first two didn't work out so well.