dust Posted November 26, 2014 Does lienshan not post here any longer? We would've gotten into some battles... 困而浧之 To go too far, 不不若已 Is not as good as stopping; 湍而群之 To do more than one can manage 不可長保也 Is not sustainable; 金玉浧室 When gold and jade fill one’s halls, 莫能獸也 There is no protection; 貴福喬 The arrogance of wealth 自遺咎也 Creates its own problems; 功述身退 When the work is done, withdraw; 天之道也 The Way of Heaven 不 this second 不 possibly meant as 而 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 26, 2014 (edited) He hasn't been around for about a year and a half. 困而浧之 To go too far, 不不若已 Is not as good as stopping; I sure wish you could find a way to make the second line read: Is not as good as stopping in time; Edited November 26, 2014 by Marblehead Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted November 26, 2014 Yes well that is what's meant isn't it.. I'm wondering about another way of saying it though: 困而浧之 Compelling fullness 不不若已 Does not yield life; 湍而群之 Working against the tide 不可長保也 Cannot last long; 金玉浧室 When gold and jade fill one’s halls, 莫能獸也 There is no protection; 貴福喬 The arrogance of wealth 自遺咎也 Creates its own problems; 功述身退 When the work is done, withdraw; 天之道也 The Way of Heaven Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 26, 2014 Yes well that is what's meant isn't it.. I'm wondering about another way of saying it though: 困而浧之 Compelling fullness 不不若已 Does not yield life; 湍而群之 Working against the tide 不可長保也 Cannot last long; Go back! Go back! You've gone too far! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted November 26, 2014 hehe...oh the irony 困而浧之 Compelling fullness 不不若已 Does not yield life here, you see (and this is probably just more of my linguistic self-indulgence but bear with me), we have: 困 is actually a character with foot 之 on top of tree/plant 木, meaning control/force, but which suggests perhaps an the idea of forcing something to grow by stamping on it (not an act that results in growth, generally) 浧 means full (up), and seems like it could be seen as a pictogram of a person having water poured into their mouth till overflowing (or simply someone full of water) then 已 is a pictograph of a newborn -- symbolizing the end of pregnancy, and meaning finish or stop or fulfillment The connections to living things -- trees, people, babies -- made me wonder if a more visceral translation wouldn't be appropriate Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 26, 2014 So I see in there: Stomp on the weed before it matures and gives birth to more weeds. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted November 26, 2014 No, no! Rather, Don't push and prod things in order to try and make them grow Henricks says, To accumulate until you have filled itIs not so good as stopping in time it is that meaning, but his words lack any kind of life or feeling Filled it? What's it? Stopping in time for what? There's no practical advice, just "don't overfill something cos then it might be too full".... 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 26, 2014 Filled it? What's it? Stopping in time for what? There's no practical advice, just "don't overfill something cos then it might be too full".... Actually, my saying "Do what needs be done. Nothing more, nothing less." came from here. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dust Posted November 26, 2014 Yes ...but that actually means something. I don't think Henricks's phrasing does. I don't think he's considered the deeper meaning. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted November 26, 2014 Yes ...but that actually means something. I don't think Henricks's phrasing does. I don't think he's considered the deeper meaning. That is why I enjoy so much talking with you folks who do read the Chinese and take the time to do your own translations. I can't question Henricks but you guys are open books for me. Almost always willing to get into a "meaning" discussion with me. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Crow With No Mouth Posted January 3, 2015 Hi everyone, I'm new here. I recently started making my own translation/interpretation of Tao Teh Ching in order to understand it better and am hoping that it will also help me integrate it. I don't actually know any Chinese but I'm instead using Jonathan Star's verbatim translation and taking inspiration from all the translations I've read/can find. I'm just doing this to understand it myself so I'll take some artistic liberties when I see fit. Hope that doesn't offend anyone. Anyway if anyone has any criticism or suggestion I'll gladly listen. I'm always more than willing to learn from others views. And maybe I even make changes based on them. I'm done with the first verse (this one, I'm doing this in random order based on what I feel like doing the day I do it) although it's still open for changes. Which is precisely why I'm looking forward to hearing your opinions. So here it is: Filling a cup to the brim, will only make it spill. Sharpening a blade for too long, will only make it blunt. A house filled with gold and jade, no one is capable of guarding it. Wealth and status leads to pride and arrogance, bringing their own misfortune. Once the task is done - Retire. Such is the nature of Tao. The path to serenity. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 3, 2015 Filling a cup to the brim,will only make it spill. Sharpening a blade for too long, will only make it blunt. Welcome, CWNMIt seems you have done the translation. Now, it is a matter of understand the philosophy behind it by one's own interpretation.....??? What do you think that the metaphor is hinting...??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 4, 2015 道德經9 《道德經》: 持而盈之，不如其已；揣而銳之，不可長保。金玉滿堂，莫之能守；富貴而驕，自遺其咎。功遂身退天之道。 《老子河上公章句·運夷》: 持而盈之，不如其已。揣而梲之，不可長保。金玉滿堂，莫之能守。富貴而驕，自遺其咎。功成、名遂、身退，天之道。 《郭店·老子甲》: 持而浧之，不不若已。揣而銳之，不可長保也。金玉浧室，莫能守也。貴福驕，自遺咎也。功遂身退，天之道也。 《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 植而盈之，不□□□□□□之□之，□可長葆之。金玉盈室，莫之守也；貴富而驕，自遺咎也。功遂身芮天□□□。 《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 植而盈之，不若其已；鍛而允之，不可長葆也。金玉盈室，莫之能守也；貴富而驕，自遺咎也。功遂身退，天之道也。 This is a two part essay 1. 持而盈之，不如其已；揣而銳之，不可長保。金玉滿堂，莫之能守；富貴而驕，自遺其咎。 2. 功遂身退天之道。 (1) is a collection of common sense proverbs on the benefits of moderation (2) is not quite clear 功遂身退天之道。 Or 功成、名遂、身退，天之道。 It is normally translated as “When the work is done, and one's name is becoming distinguished, to withdraw into obscurity is the way of Heaven.” Why would a nonchalant Taoist need to do any work, let alone have his name distinguished? What it is to withdraw? Why all of the above is the way of Heaven? 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 4, 2015 道德經9 (2) is not quite clear 功遂身退天之道。 Or 功成、名遂、身退，天之道。 It is normally translated as “When the work is done, and one's name is becoming distinguished, to withdraw into obscurity is the way of Heaven.” Why would a nonchalant Taoist need to do any work, let alone have his name distinguished? What it is to withdraw? Why all of the above is the way of Heaven? 功成身退天之道 It is a matter of principle! One should withdrawn oneself from the scene when the mission was accomplished. This is a way of practice, as a Taoist, to due away with the desire for rich and famous. Another way to look at it is to avoid competing with others. A Taoist do not wish someone to have a pang of envy at the thought of one's success. BTW A Taoist wants to assist the others to accomplish things. Thus a Taoist is not necessarily to be nonchalant. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 4, 2015 Chi Dragon i do hear you but the questions remain 功成身退天之道It is a matter of principle! One should withdrawn oneself from the scene when the mission was accomplished. is it not what an ordinary person is doing? i work 9 to 5 and go home. whoo-hoo i am a taoist! This is a way of practice, as a Taoist, to due away with the desire for rich and famous. Another way to look at it is to avoid competing with others. A Taoist do not wish someone to have a pang of envy at the thought of one's success. BTW A Taoist wants to assist the others to accomplish things. why ? why would a taoist care one wit about the others and their feelings? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) Chi Dragon i do hear you but the questions remain is it not what an ordinary person is doing? i work 9 to 5 and go home. whoo-hoo i am a taoist! why ? why would a taoist care one wit about the others and their feelings? The work(9 to 5 and go home) that you are talking about is not the same as a mission. It is a mission that one has to be accomplished to benefit all the people. I don't we are talking about the same thought. A Taoist has to follow certain principles to assist people. The reason they study TCM is to help people to get well from illnesses and be healthy. hmm.....By your line of questioning, it seems to me that you have no idea what Taoism is all about. Edited January 4, 2015 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 4, 2015 The work(9 to 5 and go home) that you are talking about is not the same as a mission. It is a mission that one has to be accomplished to benefit all the people. I don't we are talking about the same thought. A Taoist has to follow certain principles to assist people. The reason they study TCM is to help people to get well from illnesses and be healthy. hmm.....It seems to me that you have no idea what Taoism is all about. That ione is for sure I have no clue;) But can i with all due respect ask one more time if thats not too much trouble... A Taoist has to follow certain principles to assist people. Why? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 4, 2015 No problem! It's getting late here now. I'm glad to give you a response in the morning coffee time. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Marblehead Posted January 4, 2015 “When the work is done, and one's name is becoming distinguished, to withdraw into obscurity is the way of Heaven.” Why would a nonchalant Taoist need to do any work, let alone have his name distinguished? What it is to withdraw? Why all of the above is the way of Heaven? I like that! I even like your questions but I'm not going to attempt to answer any of them. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawei Posted January 4, 2015 This is a two part essay 1. 持而盈之，不如其已；揣而銳之，不可長保。金玉滿堂，莫之能守；富貴而驕，自遺其咎。 2. 功遂身退天之道。 (1) is a collection of common sense proverbs on the benefits of moderation (2) is not quite clear 功遂身退天之道。 Or 功成、名遂、身退，天之道。 It is normally translated as “When the work is done, and one's name is becoming distinguished, to withdraw into obscurity is the way of Heaven.” Why would a nonchalant Taoist need to do any work, let alone have his name distinguished? What it is to withdraw? Why all of the above is the way of Heaven? ZZ - trans. by Legge (ctext) 昔吾聞之大成之人曰：『自伐者無功，功成者墮，名成者虧。』孰能去功與名而還與眾人！道流而不明居，得行而不名處；純純常常，乃比於狂；削跡捐勢，不為功名。是故無責於人，人亦無責焉。至人不聞，子何喜哉？ Formerly I heard a highly accomplished man say, "Those who boast have no merit. The merit which is deemed complete will begin to decay. The fame which is deemed complete will begin to wane." Who can rid himself of (the ideas of) merit and fame, and return and put himself on the level of the masses of men? The practice of the Dao flows abroad, but its master does not care to dwell where it can be seen; his attainments in it hold their course, but he does not wish to appear in its display. Always simple and commonplace, he may seem to be bereft of reason. He obliterates the traces of his action, gives up position and power, and aims not at merit and fame. Therefore he does not censure men, and men do not censure him. The perfect man does not seek to be heard of; how is it that you delight in doing so? I agree this is not about the ordinary man... so it has nothing to do with getting rid of desire of things... it is more like a statement of fact; things do not even have sway over them. If this is a way of practice, then it is similar to saying that Heaven practices its way... So this is not about practice. This is really about the self and wu wei and non-attachment. Not the practice but the living embodiment. 2 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 4, 2015 (edited) That ione is for sure I have no clue;) But can i with all due respect ask one more time if thats not too much trouble... "A Taoist has to follow certain principles to assist people." Why? Good morning(my morning anyway)...... This Taoist is not necessarily a secluded Taoist but can be an ordinary person who practice the principles of Tao. A Taoist, as a good practice, would like to be virtuous by making contributions to the society by helping others. It may be analogous to a boy scout in doing three good deeds a day. Edited January 4, 2015 by ChiDragon Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 4, 2015 Good morning(my morning anyway)...... This Taoist is not necessarily a secluded Taoist but can be an ordinary person who practice the principles of Tao. A Taoist, as a good practice, would like to be virtuous by making contributions to the society by helping others. It may be analogous to a boy scout in doing three deeds a day. Morning a boy scout is a perfect analogy. Thank you. But you still make unsupported claims without answering the question 'why'. Now you know the question 'why' normally predicates one of 2 answers. 1. Argument from authority (Latin: argumentum ab auctoritate), also authoritative argument and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy when misused.[1] E.g 'Lao-zi came to me in person and told me so" or 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_reasoning 'A taoist has to do good deeds because the moon is made from green cheese' Mingbai le ma? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 4, 2015 Morning a boy scout is a perfect analogy. Thank you. But you still make unsupported claims without answering the question 'why'. Now you know the question 'why' normally predicates one of 2 answers. 1. Argument from authority (Latin: argumentum ab auctoritate), also authoritative argument and appeal to authority, is a common form of argument which leads to a logical fallacy when misused.[1] E.g 'Lao-zi came to me in person and told me so" or 2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_reasoning 'A taoist has to do good deeds because the moon is made from green cheese' Mingbai le ma? Mingbai le...!!! However, "A Taoist has to follow certain principles to assist people" was not illogical nor a fallacy...... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taoist Texts Posted January 4, 2015 Mingbai le...!!! However, "A Taoist has to follow certain principles to assist people" was not illogical nor a fallacy...... It is unless you support it with logical reasoning. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChiDragon Posted January 4, 2015 It is unless you support it with logical reasoning. So, you are saying logical reasoning is useless. Sorry, I am out of logical reasoning to support my claim. Have a splendid day! 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
