Tibetan Yoga meditation methods revealed

[Immortal4life]

Much remains secret though and you're not going to learn real tummo from a book, and the specifics vary depending on which lineage you learn it from.

 

What are the different lineages that teach Tummo?

[Aetherous]

I personally don't believe in tummo. I think it is a corruption of transmission from India to Tibet, with some dubious basis in the Hevajra tantra.

 

Interesting. I'm not familiar with any Indian techniques which are similar in theory or result. There are so many variations of Indian yoga, many of them secret, so who knows. I personally prefer the Tibetan/Bon version of things, such as in the book Healing with Form Energy and Light...and see that the complete methods of tummo (I've only seen them in books, and practiced similar things) are great and fairly unique.

[suninmyeyes]

Has anyone heard of the Iceman,Wim Hof ?A Dutch tummo practicioner who does a lot of demos like a barefoot marathon in -15 centigrade etc.He is on you tube too.

Sorry cant post links as somethings wrong with my computer.

He is an interesting guy to check out.

[ralis]

Has anyone heard of the Iceman,Wim Hof ?A Dutch tummo practicioner who does a lot of demos like a barefoot marathon in -15 centigrade etc.He is on you tube too.

Sorry cant post links as somethings wrong with my computer.

He is an interesting guy to check out.

 

I have seen him swim under the ice.

[RongzomFan]

Interesting. I'm not familiar with any Indian techniques which are similar in theory or result.

 

 

Research "kundalini"

[Aetherous]

Thank you...I've obviously never done that.

[Non]

Yoga originated in India and then spread through the world.

As things spread, they dilute. Tibet is geographicaly very close to India.

To access the more pure forms I would study India's - although the language is a barrier.

 

Tibet has been a copycat of India in many ways - including the system of Bramn nobility system which was the system that kept knowledge hidden and that Buddha worked to circumvent so as to expose the teachings of meditation.

 

The monks in Tibet are a privelidged class where they own the land and the others work as slaves.

 

 

Actually the original yoga came from Egypt then came to India where it became a science.

[Non]

When it comes to physical yoga, the Tibetans have access to practice texts that precede anything found in India. The oldest surviving text on hatha yoga is from the 15th century. Tibetans use a text from 8th century.

 

Anyway, that's only the physical yoga. Tibetan yoga is much more than that and contains many practices that were passed down orally from mahasiddhas and taught to Tibetans only. And mahamudra and dzogchen are particular to Tibet

 

This is a complex topic, but there's certainly no "pure" yoga. Practices can be refined over the years if there is an enlightened lineage.

 

Yea actually I read about that in Yantra Yoga: The Tibetan Yoga of Movement.

[NeiChuan]

Has anyone heard of the Iceman,Wim Hof ?A Dutch tummo practicioner who does a lot of demos like a barefoot marathon in -15 centigrade etc.He is on you tube too.

Sorry cant post links as somethings wrong with my computer.

He is an interesting guy to check out.

 

Yep, I just wish he'd mention its due to his tummo a bit more. When he mentions things like mind power, he throws people off alittle.

[Soulthriller]

Does someone here know the reason behind doing the exercise where, after in a standing position, the individual will lift one back and do an action that results in them dropping to the floor sitting in the crosslegged position? Perhaps energetically-speaking it would have a place? I ask because I have seen this done by one man outside of the ones in one of the videos posted in the beginning and in that video, it was supposed to be the first time that this yoga has been filmed and allowed for the general public to see. I think the reason was because the yogi was afraid that with the declining amount of people following the yogi way of life, these forms of yoga would disappear forever.

[KoolAid900]

From the article on Michael Winn's wesbite:

 

In his thesis, he states that old Tibet was a society that was 'damaging to the human spirit.' Any person who has spent any time with the Tibetan people would laugh at the irony. Being with Tibetans of all walks of life, inside and outside of Tibet, one is always struck by the incredible, contagious spirit of Tibetan culture.

 

 

I think this gets to the heart of it. Both the culture and any of the Tibetan Buddhist practices. If you've actually spent time with Tibetans you can feel this. Even the aristocratic Tibetans have some sort of quality, very similar to Native Americans in some way. Tibet society was quite far from perfect. They did(do?) have some amazing attributes and practices though (cultural and spiritual). I consider myself to have been very positively effected by Tibet, but am not interested in becoming Tibetan.

[KoolAid900]

Contagious wisdom (referencing quote on previous post)

 

I understand that this is a Taoist forum, so it is natural that members will have a Taoist take (which I love btw). But to really understand a practice like tummo I think one has to understand the context within which it occurs. Just as the author above described the Tibetan culture as contagious, this is how enlightenment in Tibet is. The practices of energy work (based on my limited introduction to them) in Tibet are supplemental to the main practice. They are powerfully useful in helping one "catch" the wisdom of Mahamudra/Dzogchen, deepen it, and make it complete. They exist within the context of transmission... where the main practice is really devotion/magical intention. This is such a misunderstood concept that I doubt I can be clear.

 

 

Self-empowering Devotion

 

Many in the west tend to think that devotion is giving up power. But it is not, we still have the power. Anytime we give up power, we are actually the ones in control of where our power goes. We haven't really given anything up, we just pretended to! It is like that with devotion, it is magical intention, and a powerful emotion/channel thing. A deeply applied, genuine, devotion towards anything creates a powerful focus, and magical intention. This is what is so scary about devotion and what can be addicting for an inappropriate recipient. For a realized person it is nothing however, why would they want your Buddha-nature when they have their own? And with such deep focus, engaging all level of one's being, dropping the wall of ego, it becomes very easy for someone to just hold up a mirror and show the student the real source... BuddhaNature.

 

Energy work and Magical Intention

 

The ritual, presentation, and understanding of tummo occurs for its own sake and merit, but also with this particular goal in mind. The esoteric presentation, and making the student work to obtain what may seem like a basic simple energy practice are actually part of the practice. The apparent energy practice is only one technique at work... It is only when the student's entire being is gathered and focused into one channel and intent that he/she will recognize her own BuddhaNature/magical intention completely, with little remainder (along with some other prerequisite conditions). The energy practices, while being real and effective, are only real and effective in so far as the magical, inherent, spontaneous Buddha-quality makes them so. This is why energy practices look different in BuddhaDharma. This is also why faith/devotion is such an important component in the Vajrayana and what makes it so direct. Faith is nothing other than working with the source.

 

Hope that made some sense... Also, I am not trying to one up the Tao with BuddhaDharma... I would love to hear about how the Tao approach works with these things.

[RongzomFan]

Tibetan society was pretty close to perfect. Most of the population were monks. That is unheard of.

Edited December 15, 2010 by alwayson

[KoolAid900]

Does anyone have any information on the westerner in the Tummo video? Or how a westerner can learn this system of Tibetan Yoga/meditation?

 

I think it depends on how serious the student is. If one's motivation is for enlightenment and service to others then it can absolutely be learned, but it will be in the context of moving from where ever you are to enlightenment. Like the in the Karate Kid you may have to do a lot of car-waxing to get complete transmission, but if you've done it well you'll realize that you were developing everything you needed/wanted the whole time. When you get the practice it will transform your life, rather than just be a technique with some benefit.

 

I personally began to explore Taoism because of the availability of some of the techniques and realized that I am better off finishing what I started in Tibetan Buddhism.

[Aetherous]

When you get the practice it will transform your life, rather than just be a technique with some benefit.

 

Exactly.

 

Besides, the details of the actual method are important for achieving the transformation in my opinion.

 

Simply holding the breath with the mind in the navel and perineum isn't going to be effective.

 

I like your ideas KoolAid!

Edited December 15, 2010 by Scotty

[Creation]

I think it is important to distinguish between the tummo techniqe itself and the larger context of mahamudra practice. Mahamudra is a system aiming at full enlightenment, so of course there are going to be things you do before tummo that are not, strictly speaking, prerequisites for doing tummo, and practices you learn after tummo that build on it, and practices learned after that don't strictly seeking require tummo to perform.

 

With that preamble, I ask, is it so illegitimate to use tummo in any other context than a complete system aiming at full enlightenment in one lifetime? I think it is kind of warped to say if you are not doing tummo as a part of mahamudra it is "just a technique with some benifit." As I understand it, the Taoist view is that not everyone is not here for enlightenment in this lifetime, and those that are aren't any better than those who aren't, so anyone with a use for an energetic practice (that the teacher judges won't abuse or hurt themselves with it) should be allowed to learn it.

 

I suspect the technique for tummo itself, independent of the rest of mahamudra, is not that hard, and does not require transmission or right view or bodhistattva vows or 100,000 prostrations. It certainly requires some preliminary training for safety reasons. But if it has health benefits, benefits for healers, etc., why hold back on using it in that way too, and making teaching available for the technique and the preliminaries for the technique (rather than the preliminaries for the whole mahamudra system)?

 

This is what Taoists did with qigong, and I think a great many have benefited from it. So really I'm espousing a general philosophy of dispensing teachings, not just of tummo specifically.

[Creation]

Oh, I forgot to say, isn't that what Namkhai Norbu did with his book Yantra Yoga? So there is some precedent for this even among high level lamas. The questions then become what to teach publicly without prerequisites, and what to put in book for and what needs to be in person etc.

Edited December 15, 2010 by Creation

[KoolAid900]

I think it is important to distinguish between the tummo techniqe itself and the larger context of mahamudra practice. Mahamudra is a system aiming at full enlightenment, so of course there are going to be things you do before tummo that are not, strictly speaking, prerequisites for doing tummo, and practices you learn after tummo that build on it, and practices learned after that don't strictly seeking require tummo to perform.

 

With that preamble, I ask, is it so illegitimate to use tummo in any other context than a complete system aiming at full enlightenment in one lifetime? I think it is kind of warped to say if you are not doing tummo as a part of mahamudra it is "just a technique with some benifit." As I understand it, the Taoist view is that not everyone is not here for enlightenment in this lifetime, and those that are aren't any better than those who aren't, so anyone with a use for an energetic practice (that the teacher judges won't abuse or hurt themselves with it) should be allowed to learn it.

 

I suspect the technique for tummo itself, independent of the rest of mahamudra, is not that hard, and does not require transmission or right view or bodhistattva vows or 100,000 prostrations. It certainly requires some preliminary training for safety reasons. But if it has health benefits, benefits for healers, etc., why hold back on using it in that way too, and making teaching available for the technique and the preliminaries for the technique (rather than the preliminaries for the whole mahamudra system)?

 

This is what Taoists did with qigong, and I think a great many have benefited from it. So really I'm espousing a general philosophy of dispensing teachings, not just of tummo specifically.

 

 

Beautiful!

Well said.

 

I love it... I love the point that you bring up and it seems to really hit the nail on the head in some way about about the stylistic approach of Tao and BuddhaDharma. It seems reasonable to me to use it for that purpose. Both approaches seems wonderful and actually necessary to me, at least for enlightenment, haha. I have been training in the Buddhist perspective and my training has been effective apparently, because I have a hard getting out of it, hehe. I think there really is no ultimate right answer... One who is in the position of dispensing the teaching would have to make the call based on look at the circumstances I suppose. On the one hand, why deny someone potential benefit... esp. if that benefit is likely further one's progress on the path to enlightenment (if we look form a Buddhist perspective) regardless of intention? This is something I have noticed individual Lamas becoming more lax about in the west. On the other hand, if the Lama can see that denying you the technique will actually bring you (or beings in general) greater happiness, then this makes sense too. Most situations probably fall in a gray area in between, I'd guess. Then would be up to the intuition/insight of the teacher.

 

From the Taoist sage perspective, Tao is Tao, what does it matter if you know you are Tao or not? You are still Tao. If you think something will make you happy (and of good character), I'll give it to you and you can determine for yourself. (let me know if I'm wrong here).

 

 

It seems that in the accomplished masters of both traditions there is a mixture of the two approaches. I know of accomplished Lamas who have disappeared doing random things, like construction work, for many years at a time, seemingly out of equanimity. Also, Tao masters certainly push their students to be greater than the students behave.

[KoolAid900]

Oh, I forgot to say, isn't that what Namkhai Norbu did with his book Yantra Yoga? So there is some precedent for this even among high level lamas. The questions then become what to teach publicly without prerequisites, and what to put in book for and what needs to be in person etc.

 

I don't really have much exp with Mr Norbu, but this trend does seem to be growing some.

[Sunya]

the Yantra Yoga book does not teach tummo.. Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche does teach tummo and you can buy books through the Dzogchen Community with instructions in it and other powerful practices, but it's all within the Dzogchen context. You have to receive transmission and be a member of DC.

 

Tummo without the larger context would be pretty useless. It creates a lot of bliss, and if one isn't on the proper path it will just create more attachment to pleasure rather than wisdom. The purpose of tummo is actually to create a lot of bliss for the purpose of not being conditioned by it and increasing Presence. More bliss = more presence = more wisdom.. but also very easy to get more attached and then the practice is useless and becomes dangerous. That's why I don't think it should be practiced by those who aren't on the path.

[Non]

I wd like to know the simple tummo practice not for enlightenment but just to create internal heat...

[Immortal4life]

To me the Tibetan Buddhist Yoga system that includes the Trul khor and Tummo methods looks like an awesome Yoga system.

[RongzomFan]

To me the Tibetan Buddhist Yoga system that includes the Trul khor and Tummo methods looks like an awesome Yoga system.

 

 

An analogy might help

 

Trul khor is to tummo, as hatha yoga is to kundalini.

[Immortal4life]

That analogy does help....

 

So does anyone else have information on how or where you can learn the Tibetan system that contains Trul Khor and Tummo?

[Kali Yuga]

Transmission is masturbation. Having a special "lineage" is masturbation.

 

Get it directly from the source. Cut out the middleman; the priest, the so called "master" the "community" etc. Ooooh look at us we're special because we have this and others don't. They won't be saved or be enlightened or just aren't as good as us because they don't have the special dogma we do.. lets all go to la la land