[TTC Study] Chapter 10 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

[rene]

Marblehead - thanks for posting the Chapters!

 

I find no major differences between the renditions, as far as seeming intent of the words, and like Chapters 11 & 12, this is another beautiful example of the lines in Chapter 1 playing out: "Ever desireless, one can see the mystery. Ever desiring, one sees the manifestations. (F/E)" I like that it wraps up nicely with reference to the two unboundaried perspectives, the te of tao, which is indeed hidden, profound, and primal.

[strawdog65]

Another version.

Like the others, I just like this one more.

 

Peace!

 

 

 

 

By: Hua-Ching Ni

 

10

 

 

Can you always embrace Oneness

without the slightest separation of body and mind?

Can you maintain undivided concentration

until your vital force is as supple as a newborn baby's?

Can you clarify your inner vision to be flawless?

Can you love your people and serve your state

with no self-exaltation?

 

As Life's Gate opens and closes

in the performance of birth and death,

can you maintain the receptive, feminine principle

when yin and yang are changing?

After achieving the crystal clear mind,

can you remain detached and innocent?

 

Give birth to and nourish all things

without desiring to possess them.

Give of yourself,

without expecting something in return.

Assist people, but do not attempt to control them.

This is how to realize the deep virtue of the universe.

 

--------------------------------------------------

 

 

My thoughts, (probably wrong, but still my thoughts )

 

To me its about having it all, but not attaching yourself to it or subverting it.

Only when you can can stand in the flow of the whirlwind, and create benefit to all,

changing when needed and remaining open to the chaos of the uncertain,

accepting this change, without identifying with it, will tao be realized.

 

Another words, Be Self-less and flow without expectation, or judgment of the unclear mind.

 

Peace!

[Marblehead]

I think that this might also be a rebuttal against Confucian ideals in that Confucius suggests that the people need to be molded into efficient members of society whereas Lao Tzu is saying that the people need be left alone and they will find their own 'best way'.

[cheya]

Waysun Liao suggests this is a series of specific methods and goals in learning to "practice the Power of Tao." A short quote from Nine Nights (p.83) to give you the flavor of his treatment of this chapter: Laotzu tells the prince:

 

"To practice the power of Tao

while carrying body and consciousness and embracing the only One Power, can you avoid the separation of body and consciousness?

To practice with the Chi,

flowing life energy and becoming supple, can you be like a newborn baby?

This life energy that we can learn to flow is one step down from the One Chi, the original power of Tao."

 

The first two stanzas of chapter 10 are embedded in that text. Sorry I haven't figured out how to make the actual text sand out with my antiquated computer. But I think the quote gives you the very different flavor of Liao's translation! I love it!

[Marblehead]

Waysun Liao suggests ...

 

Yes. That is nice. Chuang Tzu did, in my opinion, a very good job of talking to this concept. It is one of my Chapters of Taoist Philosophy I am posting every few days.

[manitou]

In the third line, Lin Yutang says "In cleansing and purifying your Mystic vision, Can you strive after perfection?"

 

It seems that people are always willing to jump to the opposing and say "But we're just humans, we cannot be perfect". That must be true. But on the other hand, all interpreters of this seem to be placing the onus of clarity back on ourselves. The process of cleansing and purifying your Mystic vision....how is this done? If we do not have an actual process for doing this cleansing, do we just let life bring the process to us? This seems to work as well, but it would take an entire lifetime to achieve mystical clarity by this standard. There are various processes for 'going in' to remove blockages. I don't see how clarity is achieved without the actual introspection and purging process.

 

Yutang also says "In comprehending all knowledge, can you renounce the mind?" This seems to go directly to our habit of attaining book knowledge and believing that therefore we have achieved clarity and knowledge. Book knowledge is a wonderful thing and most of us have framed our perspectives through the evaluation of other people's conclusions. But true knowledge is something else altogether. It is Experiential. It can't be received from a book. It's as though the Tao, or Spirit, or the Void enters the body and directs it from within; the lessons received are swift and effective if one can see past the ego to the lesson.

 

Another line from Yutang: "In loving the people and governing the kingdom, Can you rule without interference?" I don't know if any here will agree with me, (I'm really reluctant to write this because I know what's going to happen...) but it appears to me that Mr. Obama is utilizing the Tao or similar mindset

in ruling the kingdom. I see him as a man who has achieved the ability of wu-wei, or Not Doing. He is ruling a big country as he would fry a small fish (elsewhere in the TTC). He seems to 'let' the legislation come to him and stand back while things are gelling, then step up when his presence is required. I just see the presence of the Tao in everything he does.

[dawei]

I only want to comment on the first few lines now since there is so much going on.

 

The opening line has Ying Po (營魄) and Bao Yi (抱一) is translated variously as:

載營魄抱一

Wu = In keeping the spirit and the vital soul together,

Feng/English = Carrying body and soul and embracing the one,

Hendricks = In nourishing the soul and embracing the One

Ni = Can you always embrace Oneness (next line has body and mind)

Liao = While carrying Body and Consciousness and embracing the only One Power

 

Most, other than Hendricks, follow the older HSB commentary where Ying Po (營魄) is equated with Hun Po (魂魄) as to a very important archtype dual meaning of earthbound-soul and heavenbound-soul; also as Yang-Yin; also as Dragon-Tiger. These are to be harmonized/balanced; not in disharmony.

 

Line 2 has Zhuan Qi (專氣) which Wu has as "Gathering your Vital Energy" and Hendricks as "Concentrating your Breath", I think it is the combination of both because the previous line having 'Po' which has it's location in the lungs so both lines are connected by the idea of a "vital Qi-breath of the soul".

 

Line 3 has Xuan Lan (玄覽) which has:

Wu = Inner vision

Feng/English = Primal Vision

Hendricks = Profound Mirror

Ni = Inner vision

Liao = True Original Vision

 

Because of what is going on here so far in the opening lines, I would translate this as "Mystic Vision". Here is how I would treat the opening three lines:

 

Can you house the [hun-po] soul, and contain them as One without disharmony?

Can you focus Qi-breath to attain the softness of a newborn child?

Can you cleanse the mystic vision to be without distortion?

[Marblehead]

Because of what is going on here so far in the opening lines, I would translate this as "Mystic Vision". Here is how I would treat the opening three lines:

 

Can you house the [hun-po] soul, and contain them as One without disharmony?

Can you focus Qi-breath to attain the softness of a newborn child?

Can you cleanse the mystic vision to be without distortion?

 

I think lines 2 & 3 are nice. Finely descriptive.

 

Line 1 just doesn't 'feel' right to me.

 

I actually prefer John Wu's translation of line 1.

[cheya]

 

 

I only want to comment on the first few lines now since there is so much going on.
.......
Because of what is going on here so far in the opening lines, I would translate this as "Mystic Vision". Here is how I would treat the opening three lines:

Can you house the [hun-po] soul, and contain them as One without disharmony?
Can you focus Qi-breath to attain the softness of a newborn child?
Can you cleanse the mystic vision to be without distortion?

Dawei, Your way of comparing and analyzing the verses is very helpful to me.
Thank you!
 cheya

[dawei]

I actually prefer John Wu's translation of line 1.

WU's version uses 'soul' and 'vital spirit' and 'harmony' in such a way that it reads nicely; I see a little similar to my usage of ending 'without disharmony'.

 

I am not settled on this first line though since this mentions 'Wu Li' (無離):

Wu = maintain their perfect harmony

Feng/English = Avoid separation

Hendricks = Without letting them leave

Ni = Without the slightest separation

Liao = Avoid the separation

 

The word 'separation' is a standard translation. At least Wu tries to find a reason for not separating and so uses "harmony" (which is the angle I took). The only interesting thing about Hendricks is that this could imply avoiding [premature] death since the Soul (Hun-Po) leaves the body on death. He does not suggest this angle in his commentary but this is another angle I see is possible.

 

I've not found anyone who relates the Hun-Po theory enough in a commentary to pull in it's meaning as related to traditional chinese medicine (TCM), so I am not quite settled on the proper angle. It should be also noted that the Hun-Po will leave the body at other times; say shock, coma, or when one sleeps. As an example of the latter, if you stay up all night, the Hun does not leave the body (as it wants) and thus remains in a slight state of agitation; ergo, your body feels the effects of an "all-nighter" with shakes at times; TCM would say this is because the Hun was not able to leave on it's nightly rounds. Since this is a natural state of 'separating', it doesn't quite jive with the standard translations which imply to avoid the separation. So the death angle may be viable but not the sleep angle, unless there is another common aspect I am missing.

 

I have not really dived into the rest of the chapter enough to say what meaning I find which might change my direction of the opening too.

 

I see Manitou posted Yutang's version which has "Mystic Vision"... maybe I got that from him since I do have his commentary... so I cannot claim that as original

 

@cheya: thanks

Edited December 19, 2010 by dawei

[Marblehead]

Hi Dawei,

 

I have already mentioned that Henricks' translation is my favorite as the reviews I have read of his work indicate that he is very efficient with his translations.

 

I just like Wu's word usage as it flows much better as I read it.

 

Wayne Wang's translated that line 1 as:

 

Embracing Oneness with body and soul, can they be kept un-separated?

 

This is consistent with his suggestion that one can lose the spirit of Tao.

 

Of course, I am preferenced toward the word "harmony" so I am sure this has something to do with my preference for Wu's translation.

 

So I guess it is a choice between whether we keep the spirit of Tao from leaving our essence or if we manage to keep our soul in harmony with the spirit of Tao.

 

I'm not 'into' alchemy or the mystical aspects of Taoism so I can't speak to the concept of the soul leaving the body during sleep and other times.

[dawei]

I actually referenced TCM as the basis of Hun-Po, not alchemy or mystical Taoism... which the former is a branch which most any have no hard ache with. This idea is also embraced by Medical Qigong theory as well. So it is more medical than mystical, IMO... but I know it doesn't sound that way. This archtype has a very long history and helped form concepts of Yin and Yang.

 

that all aside, it's not clear what exactly is "separating". I am just inclined to see it as something to do with Po since that is in the sentence, Tao is not, except by possible implication of "embrace ONE", but I am not sure I accept that to mean the spirit Tao... it could even be the 'body and soul' as one, to not let them separate... but I'm not ready to say Spirit of Tao is wrong either. I do want to get through this chapter a little more deeper and will keep your idea in mind. Thanks!

[Marblehead]

I actually referenced TCM as the basis of Hun-Po, not alchemy or mystical Taoism...

 

Okay. Well, I'm not 'into' that (TCM) either so there you go. Hehehe.

[Procurator]

 

I am just inclined to see it as something to do with Po since that is in the sentence, Tao is not, except by possible implication of "embrace ONE", but I am not sure I accept that to mean the spirit Tao... it could even be the 'body and soul' as one, to not let them separate...

you are quite correct in your intuition since separation of Hun and Po souls is happening at death so first line is an obvious reference to qigong type practice to prevent an untimely death.

 

one grammar point thou, most translators treat 乎 as a rhetorical question and reduce the whole first part of the chapter to a disjointed sequence of such. in fact its probably a particle that strings several activities together so its better rendered with "or" or "either" in that way the chapter is an enumeration of activities all of which represent the subject of the last line: all of it is called hidden De.

Edited December 20, 2010 by TianShi

[dawei]

you are quite correct in your intuition since separation of Hun and Po souls is happening at death so first line is an obvious reference to qigong type practice to prevent an untimely death.

 

one grammar point thou, most translators treat 乎 as a rhetorical question and reduce the whole first part of the chapter to a disjointed sequence of such. in fact its probably a particle that strings several activities together so its better rendered with "or" or "either" in that way the chapter is an enumeration of activities all of which represent the subject of the last line: all of it is called hidden De.

I think coupled with the first word in each block, "can" (能), it's easy to see why many would turn it into a question, but a kind of ordered list is permitted too. I see very, very few do the latter, but Wagner is one of them. thanks.

[zerostao]

you are quite correct in your intuition since separation of Hun and Po souls is happening at death so first line is an obvious reference to qigong type practice to prevent an untimely death.

 

one grammar point thou, most translators treat 乎 as a rhetorical question and reduce the whole first part of the chapter to a disjointed sequence of such. in fact its probably a particle that strings several activities together so its better rendered with "or" or "either" in that way the chapter is an enumeration of activities all of which represent the subject of the last line: all of it is called hidden De.

very nice. i think here we do have Lao Tzu himself recommending qigong/meditation

for concentration, harmony, and purification.

if we also look at Chaung Tzu:

concentrate on the goal of meditation.

do not listen with your ear but listen with your mind;

not with your mind but with your breath.

let hearing stop with your ear,

let the mind stop with its images.

breathing means to empty oneself and wait for the Tao.

Tao abides only in emptiness.

this emptiness is the fasting mind....

so here we have evidence that in the earliest Taoist teaching qigong is recommended

to fortify meditation. however, chuang tzu also warns against mere exercise physical, breathing, and otherwise, without study and application of taoist philosophy.

[Marblehead]

so here we have evidence that in the earliest Taoist teaching qigong is recommended

to fortify meditation. however, chuang tzu also warns against mere exercise physical, breathing, and otherwise, without study and application of taoist philosophy.

 

This, I think, is a very important consideration. Thanks for pointing it out.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 10

1. 載營魄抱一，

2. 能無離乎﹖

3. 專氣致柔，

4. 能如嬰兒乎﹖

5. 滌除玄覽，

6. 能無疵乎﹖

7. 愛國治民，

8. 能無為乎﹖

9. 天門開闔，

10.能為雌乎﹖

11.明白四達，

12.能無知乎。

 

Note: Lines 13 through 17 are repeated from Chapter 51, they do not link with the logic flow in the chapter, therefore, they may be omitted.

13.生之，畜之，

14.生而不有；

15.為而不恃；

16.長而不宰，

17.是謂玄德。

 

1. Soul and body as one,

2. Can they not separate?

3. Concentrate "chi" to extreme softness,

4. Can it be like an infant?

5. Cleansing the deep reflector,

6. Can it be no flaws?

7. Patriotic and rule the people,

8. Can it be benevolent?

9. Opening and closing the heavenly gate,

10.Can it be feminized?

11.Understand four directions,

12.Can it be nothing known?

Edited May 27, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

Note: Lines 13 through 17 are repeated from Chapter 51, they do not link with the logic flow in the chapter, therefore, they may be omitted.

 

I agree. I would think that they are a separate thought and should be a separate cchapter or, most likely, those lines were a later addition to the original compilation.

 

That translation is a little cluncky reading for me but it is, I think, true to the concepts being presented.

[ChiDragon]

Yes, that was how clunky the classic text was....

[Marblehead]

Yes, that was how clunky the classic text was....

 

Hehehe. That got a belly laugh.

[zerostao]

Waysun Liao suggests this is a series of specific methods and goals in learning to "practice the Power of Tao." A short quote from Nine Nights (p.83) to give you the flavor of his treatment of this chapter: Laotzu tells the prince:

 

"To practice the power of Tao

while carrying body and consciousness and embracing the only One Power, can you avoid the separation of body and consciousness?

To practice with the Chi,

flowing life energy and becoming supple, can you be like a newborn baby?

This life energy that we can learn to flow is one step down from the One Chi, the original power of Tao."

 

The first two stanzas of chapter 10 are embedded in that text. Sorry I haven't figured out how to make the actual text sand out with my antiquated computer. But I think the quote gives you the very different flavor of Liao's translation! I love it!

 

 

"can you keep the spirit and the body without scattering?"

fundamental idea of taoist meditation. unite the body and mind to gain longevity and immortality.

"can you concentrate your mind to use breath, making it soft and quiet like a baby's?"

refers to the immortal fetus which matures with meditation to become the spirit child.

"can you purify your contemplation and keep it free?"

scrub the mirror so it will reflect purely

"can you love the people and rule the state by non action?"

the body is the state(people)(qi) the spirit(mind) is the king.

 

chuang tzu refers to kuang cheng tze telling the yellow emperor

"your spirit will keep your body, and the body will live long, long time"

[Mark Saltveit]

Steve Bokenkamp, a professor of Chinese and Religious Studies at Arizona State, just posted a detailed analysis of one line of chapter 10 on my blog, Taoish.org, which you might find interesting. One point he makes is that modern translators interpret the DDJ in very similar ways, which Chinese writers from, say, the Han period present much more widely varied meanings.

http://www.realchange.org/taoish/mirror-mirrormirror/

[takaaki]

Steve Bokenkamp, a professor of Chinese and Religious Studies at Arizona State, just posted a detailed analysis of one line of chapter 10 on my blog, Taoish.org, which you might find interesting.

 

Yours is a great blog site. How come it does not have a discussion forum to draw in the bugs?