[TTC Study] Chapter 10 of the Tao Teh Ching

[ChiDragon]

What have we learnt and didn't put it into application...???
(Chapter 81)
1. True words are not beautiful.
3. Beautiful words are not true.
3. One who is kind does not quarrel.
4. One who quarrels is not kind.
5. One who is profound is not broad.
6. One who is broad is not profound.
7. A Sage does not hoard.
8. Yet one who helps others ended up with more sufficed.
9. Yet one who gives to others ended up with more enriched.
10. The principle of nature benefits all with no harm.
11. The morality of human is to give but not to seize.

[Aaron]

Chidragon, the last post is off-topic, please keep your comments on topic.

 

What have we learnt and didn't put it into application...???
(Chapter 81)
1. True words are not beautiful.
3. Beautiful words are not true.
3. One who is kind does not quarrel.
4. One who quarrels is not kind.
5. One who is profound is not broad.
6. One who is broad is not profound.
7. A Sage does not hoard.
8. Yet one who helps others ended up with more sufficed.
9. Yet one who gives to others ended up with more enriched.
10. The principle of nature benefits all with no harm.
11. The morality of human is to give but not to seize.

 

This is regarding the off-topic discussions that led this thread astray for several pages, please refrain from making further off-topic comments.

 

Aaron

[ChiDragon]

Hello Takaaki,

 

I am an authority on the Tao Te Ching. I've studied it for over 20 years. I have a thorough understanding of its teachings. Now I might not have an extensive academic knowledge regarding the differences between the different tracts found, such as the Mawangdui and Guodian texts, but I do know what it's saying. You obviously don't know what the Tao Te Ching is saying and much of what you postulate in this topic has nothing to do with an examination of the Tao Te Ching, but rather your own opinion regarding Taoism. Please stop that, since that isn't what this thread and subforum are meant to be. This whole American Taoist crap needs to go somewhere else.

Aaron

 

What do you think this is....??? Not off-topic....???

 

If you have full authority on the TTC, as you'd claimed, then you would have had understood what my post on Chapter 81 meant...!!!

Edited January 26, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Aaron]

 

 

Ok, so what is Chapter 10 saying to you? I can accept your authority on what the Tao Te Ching says to you. But this Chinese Classic behaves like a woman who would say a different thing to each of her many lovers. You obviously think you are her one true love. Every bum in this cathouse does feel the same way. So, please tell me what Chapter 10 is saying to you.

 

...

 

You have made yourself very clear. I look forward to discussing your views on Chapter 10.

 

Hello Takaaki,

 

I would be happy to explain this chapter to you. First you must remember that reading this chapter without reading the previous chapter or following chapter will end up being a bit confusing, so I would recommend that you do that first, but foregoing that, here is my explanation.

 

As I mentioned before, we have to read the preceding chapters to get a full understanding of Lao Tzu's intentions with chapter 10. When we do that we understand that Lao Tzu is directing the questions in Chapter 10 to the ruler, not the common ordinary citizen. Now that doesn't mean the common ordinary citizen can't benefit from answering these questions himself, rather it is just that Lao Tzu's desire was to use the Tao Te Ching to bring harmony to a China that was at war in his lifetime, ruled by various petty rulers bent on overcoming the people and the neighboring states through violence and bloodshed, oftentimes using the resources available for warfare, rather than the well being of the people. Keeping this in mind lets look at the first two verses...

 

IN keeping the spirit and the vital soul together,

Are you able to maintain their perfect harmony?

 

What Lao Tzu is asking is whether the ruler has been able to maintain a state of harmony in their chi and jing. Straightforward question, but one that the vast majority of people (including the ruler) had not been able to achieve.

The following two verses ask...

In gathering your vital energy to attain suppleness,

Have you reached the state of a new-bom babe?

 

In these verses Lao Tzu is asking the ruler, more or less, whether or not they have achieved a state of wholeness and perfect integrity. This can be determined by reading Chapter 55 of the Tao Te Ching, which goes into more detail regarding the state of the newborn babe.

The next two verses ask...

In washing and clearing your inner vision,

Have you purified it of all dross?

 

Another important question, has the ruler maintained a degree of insight that is empty of all impurities? Again, the vast majority of people would have to answer no to this question, including the ruler.

Now the following question is an important one, because it addresses the nature of the court at that time...

In loving your people and governing your state,

Are you able to dispense with cleverness?

 

Has the ruler been able to do away with intrigue and manipulation? Have they been straight forward and honest in their endeavors? Again, most rulers would have to answer no, since intrigue was an integral part of the court system in Lao Tzu's time.

Now the following two chapters refer to esoteric terminology, but actually ask a very straightforward question...

In the opening and shutting of heaven's gate,

Are you able to play the feminine part?

 

In practicing sex, has the ruler been able to take the submissive role? Not only that, but have they given jing, rather than just take jing from their female partner? In those days the vast majority of sexual practices revolved around taking jing from the female partner and the notion of sharing or giving jing, of endeavoring to take on the feminine role would be quite shocking indeed. So again, most rulers would have to say no to this question as well.

Enlightened and seeing far into all directions,

Can you at the same time remain detached and non-active?

 

This question is another one that most rulers would answer no to. First most would never claim enlightenment and second, remembering the state of most courts, the vast majority of rulers would have so many machinations in play, that there would be no way they could claim to be detached and non-active.

So why all the questions? Well Lao Tzu is putting them on the spot. He's saying, "Look at you. You are not like the Sage Kings of old, rather you are an imperfect ruler. You have much work to do in order to become like the sage kings."

And after saying this, in a non-direct, non-combative way, he directs them to do the following...

Rear your people!

Feed your people!

Rear them without claiming them for your own!

Do your work without setting any store by it!

Be a leader, not a butcher!

This is called hidden Virtue.

 

Essentially this passage was a reminder to the ruler to take care of their people, to allow them to live their lives freely, to not seek recognition for the acts they do, and to not practice violence, but rather lead the people to harmony. And if they can do this, then they are practicing hidden virtue, virtue without ulterior motives.

edit- To clarify, the questions Lao Tzu asks aren't the important part of this chapter, it's the final few passages, when he explains what hidden virtue is. So we can argue about the semantics of the first half of this chapter, but that doesn't take away from what Lao Tzu is actually telling us to do. Remember he only asks if the ruler was able to achieve the first few things, he tells a ruler what he needs to do in the last part. So first half, pay attention to, but it's not as important as the second. If you miss the second half of this chapter, then the first is pointless.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

Aaron

Edited January 26, 2013 by Aaron

[Aaron]

 

What do you think this is....??? Not off-topic....???

 

If you have full authority on the TTC, as you'd claimed, then you would have had understood what my post on Chapter 81 meant...!!!

 

I think I do understand what your intentions are and, though chapter 81 does relate to this chapter, I don't think your intentions were meant to remind us of the meaning of this chapter, but rather to point fingers at the various people who were arguing in this thread. I've known you long enough to know when to nip things in the bud, so please don't press this issue. If I was mistaken I apologize.

 

Aaron

Edited January 26, 2013 by Aaron

[dawei]

I think I do understand what your intentions are and, though chapter 81 does relate to this chapter, I don't think your intentions were meant to remind us of the meaning of this chapter, but rather to point fingers at the various people who were arguing in this thread. I've known you long enough to know when to nip things in the bud, so please don't press this issue. If I was mistaken I apologize.

 

Aaron

 

I appreciate the effort to keep things on topic.

[takaaki]

Hello Takaaki,

 

I would be happy to explain this chapter to you. First you must remember that reading this chapter without reading the previous chapter or following chapter will end up being a bit confusing, so I would recommend that you do that first, but foregoing that, here is my explanation.

 

Before we proceed further, may I ask whether or not it is important to you that your reading of the Tao Te Ching has direct connection to the Chinese text?

 

You have professed a thorough understanding of its teachings and asserted that you do know what it is saying. Did you listen to what it say directly in Chinese or is your understanding based on 20 years of studying 3^rd party English translations and commentaries?

[flowing hands]

"Carrying body and soul, can you become like a new born babe?

Ever supple and yielding, but with a firm grip on life.

 

Purifying the Primal Vision, can you be without stain?

 

Loving all things, can you rule without cleverness?

 

Can you be like Heaven and play the role of the woman?

 

Understanding and being open to all things,

are you able to do nothing and follow the flow?

 

Giving birth and nourishing,

bearing, yet not posessing,

working, yet not taking credit,

leading, but not dominating.

For this is primal virtue.

 

 

When a baby is born, as part of evolution babies are born with a very strong grip so that they can cling to their mothers and not fall while being carried. A baby is born completely supple and open to everything. So as you go along in life, in following the way it is best to be supple of body and mind and open to all things, but with a firm grip on reality and stability.

 

Our view of the world is distorted by many things. Here we have reference to the process of Dao Xin, of the path to enlightenment, of opening the third eye of knowing all things. Having knowledge and power can you live with this without resorting to corruption and using this power for selfish ends?

 

Linked to this, through the process of enlightenment and loving all things are you able to let things take their natural path and not interfere? Are you able to rule the world wisely and without corruption?

 

Remember the Dao is feminine; yin. Heaven is yin, we are asked can we be as wise as the role of Heaven? Women are soft and yeilding, give life and nuture.

 

Having understanding of all things we should be able to let things take their natural course, for one action will lead to another.

 

The world as we know it will come to a sudden and horrible end in seven years, our actions and the actions of just a few will determine the outcome. I have told of what is to come but I am taking no action to do any more and following the flow of life until its end. I have understanding about the way things are and I cannot change them. I therefore continue on and prepare myself for a time of great strife.

 

Using the female principle we are using what the great Dao has taught us, this is primal virtue.

Edited January 27, 2013 by flowing hands

[Aaron]

Before we proceed further, may I ask whether or not it is important to you that your reading of the Tao Te Ching has direct connection to the Chinese text?

 

You have professed a thorough understanding of its teachings and asserted that you do know what it is saying. Did you listen to what it say directly in Chinese or is your understanding based on 20 years of studying 3^rd party English translations and commentaries?

 

Okay... not getting sucked into this. Have a good day.

 

Aaron

[dawei]

Our view of the world is distorted by many things. Here we have reference to the process of Dao Xin, of the path to enlightenment, of opening the third eye of knowing all things. Having knowledge and power can you live with this without resorting to corruption and using this power for selfish ends?

 

Linked to this, through the process of enlightenment and loving all things are you able to let things take their natural path and not interfere? Are you able to rule the world wisely and without corruption?

 

Remember the Dao is feminine; yin. Heaven is yin, we are asked can we be as wise as the role of Heaven? Women are soft and yeilding, give life and nuture.

 

Having understanding of all things we should be able to let things take their natural course, for one action will lead to another.

 

The world as we know it will come to a sudden and horrible end in seven years, our actions and the actions of just a few will determine the outcome. I have told of what is to come but I am taking no action to do any more and following the flow of life until its end. I have understanding about the way things are and I cannot change them. I therefore continue on and prepare myself for a time of great strife.

 

Using the female principle we are using what the great Dao has taught us, this is primal virtue.

 

There is so much in the post which could be commented on and possibly become other threads. I think we should try here to stick to DDJ10 as much as possible and I'll write you separately about other issues.

 

One I'll ask off the bat is: Previously you have said that you have not personally written (or published?) comments on the DDJ chapters. Would you be interested doing this?

 

Back to DDJ10: I wanted to ask about the "role of heaven"... I assume this is a microcosm to the role of the woman. Is there cosmological ideas which emerge here? Birth of the 10,000 and their ability to 'cling to their mother' ?

 

And Dao Xin and the third eye opening to knowing all things. Is the final realization that our role is also that of Heaven, that of the woman?

[takaaki]

Okay... not getting sucked into this. Have a good day.

 

Aaron

 

Tetchy. Usually a scholar wouldn't high-tail it out like this. Are you afraid of scrutiny? I have not even begun the examination of what Chapter 10 said to you and your understanding of it. I just asked if you studied the Chinese text itself or English translations of the Tao Te Ching.

 

I asked Marblehead the very same question. He didn't run. Like John Wayne, the American Taoist never runs. This is the mark of fearlessness of an honest man who harbors no pretensions. He is what he is and you can either take it or leave it. Either way, he doesn't care.

 

But you care. And you don't like questions that ruffle your careful composure of authority. I have not rejected your self-proclaimed credentials of the expert on the Tao Te Ching just as I did not dismiss an even more incredible claim of Flowing Hands that he received a direct transmission of the Tao Te Ching from Li Erh in English! I just asked what materials did you study.

 

I noticed that you used John Ching Hsiung Wu's translation in your discourse on Chapter 10. Now, Mr Wu was an illustrious post-Imperial scholar with great stature both in China as well as in America. He was also a serious Catholic convert - a Minister to the Vatican from China, no less - who translated the New Testament and the Psalms of the Bible into Chinese for his countrymen. This Catholic zealot, in his later years produced an English version of the Tao Te Ching. The one you use. Is it not reasonable of me to find out if you are going to base our discussion strictly on Mr. Wu's rendition, or would you be willing to allow cross-referencing to the Chinese text which has no western influence in its making.

 

When you put your stamp of authority on the Tao Te Ching in this forum in the manner you have done, every gunfighter in the West is going to take you on. Only you and Flowing Hands, both westerners, have claimed authority on the Chinese Classic which no Chinese here has done. Maybe they are humble or maybe they are scared. Flowing Hands is untouchable because divine inspiration is his schtick. But you are fair game because you are mortal and can be shot down. I was just checking the make of your weapon and you ran.

[Aaron]

Tetchy. Usually a scholar wouldn't high-tail it out like this. Are you afraid of scrutiny? I have not even begun the examination of what Chapter 10 said to you and your understanding of it. I just asked if you studied the Chinese text itself or English translations of the Tao Te Ching.

 

I asked Marblehead the very same question. He didn't run. Like John Wayne, the American Taoist never runs. This is the mark of fearlessness of an honest man who harbors no pretensions. He is what he is and you can either take it or leave it. Either way, he doesn't care.

 

But you care. And you don't like questions that ruffle your careful composure of authority. I have not rejected your self-proclaimed credentials of the expert on the Tao Te Ching just as I did not dismiss an even more incredible claim of Flowing Hands that he received a direct transmission of the Tao Te Ching from Li Erh in English! I just asked what materials did you study.

 

I noticed that you used John Ching Hsiung Wu's translation in your discourse on Chapter 10. Now, Mr Wu was an illustrious post-Imperial scholar with great stature both in China as well as in America. He was also a serious Catholic convert - a Minister to the Vatican from China, no less - who translated the New Testament and the Psalms of the Bible into Chinese for his countrymen. This Catholic zealot, in his later years produced an English version of the Tao Te Ching. The one you use. Is it not reasonable of me to find out if you are going to base our discussion strictly on Mr. Wu's rendition, or would you be willing to allow cross-referencing to the Chinese text which has no western influence in its making.

 

When you put your stamp of authority on the Tao Te Ching in this forum in the manner you have done, every gunfighter in the West is going to take you on. Only you and Flowing Hands, both westerners, have claimed authority on the Chinese Classic which no Chinese here has done. Maybe they are humble or maybe they are scared. Flowing Hands is untouchable because divine inspiration is his schtick. But you are fair game because you are mortal and can be shot down. I was just checking the make of your weapon and you ran.

 

I'm done talking to you, because this discussion is ridiculous and has no merit. Perhaps others might get sucked into this argument, but I've been around long enough to see it more than once and, like the bee buzzing around your head, it's best to just let it be and it will eventually go away. The merit of chinese vs english translations also has no place in this thread, nor does your American Taoists comments. If you can't follow the subforum policies, stop participating in the discussions.

 

Aaron

[takaaki]

I'm done talking to you, because this discussion is ridiculous and has no merit. Perhaps others might get sucked into this argument, but I've been around long enough to see it more than once and, like the bee buzzing around your head, it's best to just let it be and it will eventually go away. The merit of chinese vs english translations also has no place in this thread, nor does your American Taoists comments. If you can't follow the subforum policies, stop participating in the discussions.

 

Aaron

 

Well, I am not done talking to you. I have conducted myself in a reasoned manner regardless of your abusiveness. There is no reason for you to get agitated. After all, this is just an exchange between two willing parties who have agreed to study Chapter 10 of a literary classic devoted to the instilling of harmony.

 

I don't mean to pit the Chinese text against its English translations as if the original form is superior to its derivatives. I am sure you are aware of the complexities inherent in classical literature. If you were from India and wanted to know if we could refer to the sanskrit version in our study of the Gita in English, I would certainly welcome that suggestion. Why on earth would you get upset and run off in a huff over the admission of Chinese in our study of the Tao Te Ching?

[Mark Saltveit]

Flowing Hands wrote:

 

in following the way it is best to be supple of body and mind and open to all things, but with a firm grip on reality

 

OK, sure.

 

 

Here we have reference to the process of Dao Xin, of the path to enlightenment, of opening the third eye of knowing all things.

 

Uh .. metaphorically maybe. Isn't third eye a Hindu concept thought?

 

Remember the Dao is feminine; yin. Heaven is yin, we are asked can we be as wise as the role of Heaven? Women are soft and yielding, give life and nuture.

 

Mas o menos. A bit reductive, but yeah.

 

 

The world as we know it will come to a sudden and horrible end in seven years, our actions and the actions of just a few will determine the outcome.

 

Wait, WTF? I think I missed a step or two of your logical chain of reasoning here.

[Marblehead]

Wait, WTF? I think I missed a step or two of your logical chain of reasoning here.

Well, at least it shows that you were paying attention. Hehehe.

[Mark Saltveit]

I am fascinated by Takaaki's vision of "American Taoism" but it is clearly off-topic here. Luckily, some sage just created a topic called "Takaaki's American Taoism," and I'm pretty sure it will be on topic there.

 

http://thetaobums.com/topic/26717-takaakis-american-taoism/

[JustARandomPanda]

It is not unreasonable to want to see the basis of someone's claims of expertise. It might actually lead to some interesting TTC chapter discussions and show why translating is not as easy as one might think.

 

I'm guessing even some Chinese argue with some other Chinese as to what Lao Tzu really meant when it comes to the text. I've never yet seen a civilization be unanimous in its assessment about what this or that text (or laws for that matter) "really" means.

 

But in any case - this board is primarily for english speakers. So far - despite TTB having a Chinese language forum - it's not had an influx of currently in-China Chinese signing on and participating. Therefore english speakers have a right to discuss what the english translations mean for them. Indeed...ultimately it's the only thing that really matters - whether in-China Chinese or native english speaker.

[Mark Saltveit]

SereneBlue:

 

I'm guessing even some Chinese argue with some other Chinese as to what Lao Tzu really meant when it comes to the text.

 

In a recent essay, which I quoted in the topic on chapter 10 of the DDJ, Prof. Stephen Bokenkamp says that the early Chinese interpretations of the Daodejing vary much more wildly than current Western interpretations, which are kind of all the same ("so much more univocal—and boring" is his phrase).

[dawei]

In a recent essay, which I quoted in the topic on chapter 10 of the DDJ, Prof. Stephen Bokenkamp says that the early Chinese interpretations of the Daodejing vary much more wildly than current Western interpretations, which are kind of all the same ("so much more univocal—and boring" is his phrase).

 

I agree... and IMO, because the text lost it's multi-faceted foundation it stood on. All the influences are ignored and we're left with a stale philosophical approach to understanding the text.

 

While SB states in his Early Daoist Scriptures that "The Xiang'er is the earliest interpretation of the Laozi...", the very first comments on the Laozi come from Hanfeizi... a legalist! And the Baopo Zi and the Heshang Gong commentary took a more alchemy view of the Laozi. So early on, the various influences were well understood and the various parties (legalist, religious, alchemy/shaman) talked openly about its meaning. It seems to me that few want to understand or discuss the influences...

[flowing hands]

There is so much in the post which could be commented on and possibly become other threads. I think we should try here to stick to DDJ10 as much as possible and I'll write you separately about other issues.

 

One I'll ask off the bat is: Previously you have said that you have not personally written (or published?) comments on the DDJ chapters. Would you be interested doing this?

 

Back to DDJ10: I wanted to ask about the "role of heaven"... I assume this is a microcosm to the role of the woman. Is there cosmological ideas which emerge here? Birth of the 10,000 and their ability to 'cling to their mother' ?

 

And Dao Xin and the third eye opening to knowing all things. Is the final realization that our role is also that of Heaven, that of the woman?

Answer to 1; yes and no; I don't want to seek fame or riches from what I have been taught, only to empower others to tread the path.

 

Answer to 2; Heaven is a real place. it exists orbiting the earth. It is pure energy and the Immortals who live there are now only pure energy. The role of Heaven is explained many times in the DDJ. We are all reflections of the energy of the cosmos and of our environment. We are born of the cosmos and nourished by it.

 

Partly yes.

 

On TTB's I would say there are actually not many Daoists! I would say that there are a lot of people interested in its manifestations and many who like to intellectualise the words of wisdom of the sages like Li Erh. They struggle to understand the 'letter' of the Dao, but have not a whit of knowledge about the spirit or connectivity of themselves and nature, so they miss the most important part. They miss this because it is not heart felt.

 

If we were to take a poll, which we could, amongst TTB's and ask who would believe the prophecy of Shaman Flowing Hands, what do think the poll would show us?

 

Now, what hope do I have of ever convincing anyone else that what is to come is real and that what I say comes from the Immortals?

 

Not long ago, I told a person what I did, how I learn't my martial arts etc., of course they didn't really beleive me and to this day have never mentioned it. I begged the Immortal masters to show me something that would rid them of their doubt, so the Immortal master showed me that we were at the same place 26 years ago in a crowd of thousands of people. He showed me them as they were then and where it was. So I had a bet with this person and told them and described them as they were then, whether they could remember the place and time. Although now 2 years have gone by and they haven't bothered to answer me, I decided that they did not respect that which came from the Devine, so I haven't bothered to tell them the answer. But the Immortals can show things that are to come and that which have gone if necessary. So I know that what I was shown is coming, but convincing others is the most difficult thing of all.

 

I once wrote to the Delai Lama, he never replied. Why I bothered I don't know, he only has stepped up on one rung of the long ladder to spiritual enlightenment and has many hundreds if not thousands of incarnations left to go before he will get there. Only death seperates me from being Immortal again and yet I ask him to help me to help the world with compassion for life and he can't be bothered to answer. Why? He dosen't beleive who I am. I am not about to start a new religion, there are enough of them already plying their perverse trade. So I feel there is no hope and little that I could do anyway. So the world must realise its fate, we have just seven short years..... Make good use of them.

[Mark Saltveit]

flowing hands wrote:

 

Only death separates me from being Immortal again

 

You were previously immortal? And currently aren't?

[dynamictao]

Here is my new translation [Excerpt from Kindle Book: Tao Te Ching: An Ultimate Translation]

 

While embracing Oneness with body and soul,

can we keep them un-separated?

In harmonizing our Chi into tenderness,

can we become as tender as an infant?

In cleansing the Profound Vision,

can we make it spotless?

In caring for people and managing a country,

can we rely not on knowledge?

In opening our gates of heaven,

can we keep them in submission?

With far-reaching knowledge,

can we not take it as wisdom?

It brings into being without differentiation.

It acts for them without anticipating from them.

It nurtures them without controlling them.

 

This is the Profound Te.

 

Note: "Profound" maintains the wholeness, without fragmentation.

[Marblehead]

Nice. Yes, you did make a few changes. I compared with your original and with Henricks. (Henricks' is my favorite. Sorry. Hehehe.)

 

I liked your usage of the word "harmonizing". (Harmony is an important concept for me.)

 

I also really like your new Line 1. (For me, "body and soul" equal "yo and wu".) (Different aspects of the same thing.)

 

And, as always, interesting is the usage of the words "knowledge" and "wisdom".