[TTC Study] Chapter 10 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

and does it mean what I think it means?

You mean talking out of one's ass? Pretty much.

[takaaki]

You mean talking out of one's ass? Pretty much.

 

Spoken like an American (Taoist), a straight-shooter. No shit.

 

But the world sees him as an unsophisticated, clumsy thinker, an unnuanced bumpkin with the mind of a blimp. Isn't this the description of the Dao?

[ChiDragon]

takaaki

Yep...............................

You've noticed the difference too.....!!!

Edited January 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[takaaki]

takaaki

Yep...............................

You've noticed the difference too.....!!!

 

I have also noticed your Lines 9 and 10 (of Chapter 10).

What is the meaning of "opening and closing the heavenly gate"?

And what has this to do with feminization?

[takaaki]

Takaaki - your view of the essence of the Tao is lacking a little love. The man made of uncarved wood is one that has had his rough edges removed, no longer contends, finds compassion for and in all things. He knows that the man who speaks doesn't know, and the man who knows doesn't speak. You, like many of us, may have remnants of our old Type A-ness, that thing that served us so well when it was our time in life to heap up things in life; and we, the lucky ones, at some point get to find out that the heap of stuff didn't have one iota of bearing on our happiness. We needed to maintain a mental rigidness to obtain what we needed to win.

The American Way, which I espouse, does come across as heartless and insensitive. So are the violent contractions of childbirth pushing out the newborn oblivious to the distress of its mother. I am like a stork with gangly long legs.

 

The Daoist Way you speak of is one of diligent cultivation, incessant polishing, ever higher ascendance on the stairway to the Dao. You are like a duck with stubby short legs.

 

Each has its place in the scheme of things. Why do you want to shorten my legs and lengthen yours?

Your reliance on self-reliance fails to realize the wu-wei that does exist when we get our inner selves out of the way. It is a current we tap into, a wave we ride. To insist on self-reliance denies the serendipity required to find the current.

The self is a fact of life. It is the center of action. Self-reliance is a wholesome primal impulse of self-preservation like physical hunger. To deny self-reliance is to deny physical hunger. This is silly. We have to eat. This is a fact. We don’t have to find the current which is a non-fact.

Your reliance on abundance is understandable, but fear also lies at the bottom of that pile as well. the trick is to feel no fear when there is no abundance; perhaps its only at this time that the undercurrent of the Tao is found. By actual experience. To deny that your desire for abundance is not based on fear doesn't have a clear ring.

When there is no abundance, there is fear. This is a natural response. When there is no air, you gasp, turn blue and suffer brain death in 6 minutes. When there is no wealth but a $16 trillion dollar debt, you’d better get very serious before the herd turns and start dumping US Treasuries.

 

Abundance is a natural fact of life and the self-worth of the American Taoist is a measure of his net-worth. Prosperity is not a cursed thing. Poverty is. Making $86 million a year is a good thing. Living on food stamps and waging class warfare is not. To feel no fear when there is no abundance is to have gone completely mad. Do you think that the undercurrent of the Tao is found in the slums of Mumbai? Or is it more likely to be found in Marblehead’s fish ponds and garden?

Your desire to push ahead and not be a shirker is one that we have all had to get under; those who understand the concept of wu-wei. Wu wei is not to "make things happen", rather, it is to "let things happen". There is a huge difference in the inner human dynamic between the two; can you feel it? To make things happen is to gear up, to be tense, to focus our mind in a limited way on our particular desired result. Can we truly say that we know the very wisest given result? We think we know, but we do not. But, contrarily, to "let things happen" is to acknowledge that our thinking is limited and to tap into the Tao. We instantly relax every muscle we're capable of relaxing at that moment, we empty our minds, if we are touching another human being we realize the state where there is no separation between the touch of their hand and yours. It is in this sense that a cosmic alignment of sorts, a oneness of purpose, takes place.

The best argument against the Dao is a 5 minute converstaion with the average Daoist.

 

Look, Manitou, the power of the Dao is not meant for invoking spirits and conducting group therapy. It’s meant for the masters of the universe in their exciting drive to push ahead in bringing about a better world. If we just let things happen, the bottom half of mankind will just sink faster into the bowels of the earth. You are throwing a Christian blanket of passivity over an essentially vibrant Dao.

Please consider finding your source of anger, Takaaki - as knowledgeable as all of your posts are, there is an undercurrent of challenge and anger that will aways impede your vision until you can understand it and adjust the lens slightly.

Can’t we discuss together in harmony? You and I are as different in nature as the moon is unlike the sun. Yin and Yang. Earth and Heaven. The village idiot and the scholar. Each has a respective place in the cosmos for balance.

Edited January 24, 2013 by takaaki

[Marblehead]

takaaki

Yep...............................

You've noticed the difference too.....!!!

I have no need to respond to your question Takaaki, after this post from Chidragon.

[Marblehead]

Abundance is a natural fact of life and the self-worth of the American Taoist is a measure of his net-worth.

I need to speak to this. What you say is true in many cases. But I do not hold to this.

 

I would replace the word "abundance" with "knowing when one has enough". I learned that from Taoism - from Loa Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

Yes, my material net worth is important. I have security - one of our basic needs. But I also give of my excess. (And my government takes some of it too!)

[takaaki]

I need to speak to this. What you say is true in many cases. But I do not hold to this.

 

I would replace the word "abundance" with "knowing when one has enough". I learned that from Taoism - from Loa Tzu and Chuang Tzu.

 

By abundance, as a natural fact, I meant the abundance in Nature. If life was created by God, he certainly made sure we have everything in abundance: the air we need to breathe, the water we need to drink, the grasslands upon which animals graze on, the bounty of the sea, and the vastness of the Earth that is our home. Man was literally born rich. And to top all that, we were blessed with an amazing mental ability to enhance our lives in a paradise without limits. This legacy of abundance was not just for you or the top 1% or even for all mankind but for everything that exists. What happened? How is it that we now need to know when we have enough because some three billion people are dying from not having enough to stay alive; and, also, because everybody may risk losing access to clean air and water? What kind of a fool can mess up this bad?

 

Yes, my material net worth is important. I have security - one of our basic needs. But I also give of my excess. (And my government takes some of it too!)

 

If you want to live with the Tao, you’d better have money. Manah doesn’t come from Heaven. No loaves and fishes. Enough money is as essential as enough air to breathe. You’d better believe it no matter what other Taoists say.

 

The American Taoist has his eye on the bottom line and his feet firmly planted on solid ground. Being spiritual doesn’t mean going cuckoo. He is absolutely sane and in his element either in the woods seeking inspiration or in the corporate boardroom dealing with survival. Like they tell him in airplanes, he tends to his needs first before helping others with theirs.

[ChiDragon]

I have also noticed your Lines 9 and 10 (of Chapter 10).

What is the meaning of "opening and closing the heavenly gate"?

And what has this to do with feminization?

 

Good thing you are asking questions; I thought no one ever ask....!!!

It was the most peculiar and confusing about Chinese classic because it was written in metaphors.

 

9. 天門開闔，

10.能為雌乎﹖

 

9. Opening and closing the heavenly gate,

10.Can it be feminized?

 

Annotation:

9. Using the five natural senses to communication with the outside world.

10. 雌(yin or female): Females are known to be soft and quiet which give the yin characteristic. Thus the femininity, here, represent the yin characteristics of softness and quietness.

 

Using the five senses to communication with the outside world, can it give me peace and quiet for understanding what is going on in the world....??? In the contrary, people get perturb and insecure if they don't know what is going on in their environment.

Edited January 24, 2013 by ChiDragon

[dawei]

What is the meaning of "opening and closing the heavenly gate"?

And what has this to do with feminization?

 

Also consider that the heavenly gate (Tian Men) is also a reference to the third eye area... and what that represents as a passage/portal/connection.

[ChiDragon]

I think you had picked the wrong person and section to talk about the "third eye".

[Marblehead]

I have only two eyes. Well, actually, I have been called four-eyes as I wear glasses.

[dawei]

I think you had picked the wrong person and section to talk about the "third eye".

 

It's about a chapter 10 passage.

[三江源]

Females are known to be soft and quiet which give the yin characteristic.

 

 

Is this a sure fire interpretation of this passage?

[takaaki]

Is this a sure fire interpretation of this passage?

 

Every interpretation in Tao Bum is sure fire. You'd better believe it.

One even comes direct from Li Erh (aka Lao Tzu).

[ChiDragon]

Is this a sure fire interpretation of this passage?

It is in the Chinese philosophy anyway. I hope speaking the truth won't cause any fire....

[takaaki]

9. 天門開闔，

 

Annotation:

9. Using the five natural senses to communication with the outside world..

 

The Heavenly Gate is the doorway between the inner and the outer world? I would never have guessed this in a million years.

 

So, when someone look into your eyes, he would be peering into your inner soul? Also, if we close our mouths, we prevent the leaking out of secrets from our hearts? Is this how we hide from each other behind the Heavenly Gate?

 

Manitou talked about the ending of separation between she and another by tapping into the Tao to relax the muscle and empty the mind. Does the inner and outer world become one then as the Heavenly Gate disappear?

 

 

10.能為雌乎﹖

 

Annotation:

10. 雌(yin or female): Females are known to be soft and quiet which give the yin characteristic. Thus the femininity, here, represent the yin characteristics of softness and quietness.

 

Are such females real or metaphorical like the Heavenly Gate? American females are battle-axes. They are scary. The Yin seems to have gone to the men.

 

 

Using the five senses to communication with the outside world, can it give me peace and quiet for understanding what is going on in the world....??? In the contrary, people get perturb and insecure if they don't know what is going on in their environment.

 

Why do you think people get perturbed? Why this need to know and get connected the way its done through facebook and twitter? Or turning on the TV to get the news. Chapter 80 talks about not doing this:

 

11. Looking over the neighboring countries,

12. Hearing the sounds of chickens and dogs of each other,

13. People grew old until death,

14. Neither socialized with one another.

 

 

[ChiDragon]

The Heavenly Gate is the doorway between the inner and the outer world? I would never have guessed this in a million years.

The Heavenly Gate are your five senses from one's perspective to see what is going on in the world.

 

So, when someone look into your eyes, he would be peering into your inner soul? Also, if we close our mouths, we prevent the leaking out of secrets from our hearts? Is this how we hide from each other behind the Heavenly Gate?

I think what Lao Tze meant by the Heavenly Gate is an one way street from your own perspective looking outward only.

 

Manitou talked about the ending of separation between she and another by tapping into the Tao to relax the muscle and empty the mind. Does the inner and outer world become one then as the Heavenly Gate disappear?

The five senses will never go away. Thus the Heavenly Gate will not be disappeared.

 

Are such females real or metaphorical like the Heavenly Gate? American females are battle-axes. They are scary. The Yin seems to have gone to the men.

When LaoTze wrote the TTC, I don't think he had met an American female. He was referring to all Chinese females under a male dominant society.

 

Why do you think people get perturbed? Why this need to know and get connected the way its done through facebook and twitter? Or turning on the TV to get the news. Chapter 80 talks about not doing this:

If you were blindfolded and placed in an unknown place, don't you get perturbed when you don't know where you are at...???

 

11. Looking over the neighboring countries,

12. Hearing the sounds of chickens and dogs of each other,

13. People grew old until death,

14. Neither socialized with one another.

You have taken this out of context. The scenario, in Chapter 80, was to illustrate the peacefulness in between small countries. They were just mind their own business with no intention to have conflicts.

 

FYI The concept in each chapter always stands on its own and will not contradict with each other. Contradictions only may be caused by misinterpretations.

Edited January 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

By abundance, as a natural fact, I meant the abundance in Nature. If life was created by God, he certainly made sure we have everything in abundance: the air we need to breathe, the water we need to drink, the grasslands upon which animals graze on, the bounty of the sea, and the vastness of the Earth that is our home. Man was literally born rich. And to top all that, we were blessed with an amazing mental ability to enhance our lives in a paradise without limits. This legacy of abundance was not just for you or the top 1% or even for all mankind but for everything that exists. What happened? How is it that we now need to know when we have enough because some three billion people are dying from not having enough to stay alive; and, also, because everybody may risk losing access to clean air and water? What kind of a fool can mess up this bad?

True that, but there are so many causes for the conditions we see today it wouldn't be fair at all to place too much importance on any one of the many causes. Yes, we humans have done a pretty good job at messing things up.

 

If you want to live with the Tao, you’d better have money. Manah doesn’t come from Heaven. No loaves and fishes. Enough money is as essential as enough air to breathe. You’d better believe it no matter what other Taoists say.

 

The American Taoist has his eye on the bottom line and his feet firmly planted on solid ground. Being spiritual doesn’t mean going cuckoo. He is absolutely sane and in his element either in the woods seeking inspiration or in the corporate boardroom dealing with survival. Like they tell him in airplanes, he tends to his needs first before helping others with theirs.

Most of my manah comes from my government in the form of Army Retirement and Social Security. If my government falls I too will fall.

 

I basically agree with you here.

[Aaron]

Why do you accuse me of this? Please back up your claim with evidence of me claiming that I am an authority on the Dao De Jing. Flowing Hands claims authority based on direct transmission of the Dao De Jing from Li Erh. Can you debunk that? I can't and have not done so. And as long as his claim stands in this forum, there is no other authority on the Dao De Jing except Flowing Hands. I can live with that status quo. Can you?

 

 

 

You are making authoritative Dao De Jing pronouncements here. They are contrary to my ethos as an American Taoist.

 

Compassion doesn't work for me. I am not a communist. I believe in self-reliance.

Frugality is for people who are fearful. I focus on gain, not loss. I believe in abundance.

Never striving to be first? What's the matter with you? I am not a shirker. I want to create and bring about a better world.

 

 

Does it? Does my act make me appear spiteful and small-minded in showing undue concern for a trivial matter? I think we all need to pull up our bootstraps and look smart, brother. Maybe a stint for all Daoists in the US Army would do society a lot of good.

 

 

Hello Takaaki,

 

I am an authority on the Tao Te Ching. I've studied it for over 20 years. I have a thorough understanding of its teachings. Now I might not have an extensive academic knowledge regarding the differences between the different tracts found, such as the Mawangdui and Guodian texts, but I do know what it's saying. You obviously don't know what the Tao Te Ching is saying and much of what you postulate in this topic has nothing to do with an examination of the Tao Te Ching, but rather your own opinion regarding Taoism. Please stop that, since that isn't what this thread and subforum are meant to be. This whole American Taoist crap needs to go somewhere else.

 

Now, in regards to you presenting yourself as an authority, well if you're not, then you certainly believe your opinions regarding it are the only correct ones. You are also quick to attack others and give them what you believe are clever put downs hidden in compliments.

 

Your understanding of America is vastly off base as well, especially in regards to the spiritual nature of our nation. The thing most people don't want to talk about is that the religions that did come to America to be able to practice without oppression, more often than not were the most ultra conservative that were being suppressed in Europe, not just because they deviated from popular religious thought, but were in fact, in many cases, cults. As a result of this spiritual legacy of ultra conservatism, we are one of the most sexually confused nations in the world. We also happen to be one of the most violent nations, as far as crimes per capita go. Your idealization of America is a bit unfounded and perhaps indicative of your actual knowledge regarding the topic at hand.

 

If you want to laude yourself as an American Taoist, that's fine, but be sure to clarify that it has little to nothing to do with Taoism, but rather is your own loosely defined ethos of materialism. I see a lot of people that want to deny that the Tao Te Ching is a moral text, that it advocates behaving any way you "feel" is right, but that's the furthest thing from the truth. These people have no knowledge of Tao, Taoism, or the Tao Te Ching, but rather look for a philosophy that will allow them to behave any way they choose to, without having any moral repercussions. The irony is that regardless of what one believes, there will always be moral repercussions, so long as we continue to define things as right and wrong, which you seem to be adamant about.

 

How great is the difference between "eh" and "oh"? Must I believe what others believe? But perhaps even more importantly, why the hell do people need to believe the way you believe?

 

You are not that clever, nor are you that knowledgeable that you need to go around clarifying other people's errors, nor should you be touting yourself as someone who knows what Taoism actually is, when you clearly haven't got the slightest clue. Taoism is more than just folk lore, qi, and philosophy, which is something you have missed. You need not believe in the folk lore and spirituality to understand Tao, but believing in these things doesn't prevent one from understanding it either, if it did, then Lao Tzu would've been the first person misled by his own "superstitions".

 

I hope that clarifies some things. If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them for you, but please keep in mind, if it isn't directly related to Chapter 10 of the Tao Te Ching, they need to be directed someplace else. Send me a private message linking to your new topic if you want.

 

Aaron

Edited January 25, 2013 by Aaron

[Aaron]

NOTE: IF YOUR COMMENTS ARE NOT DIRECTLY RELATED TO CHAPTER 10 OF THE TAO TE CHING, THEN THEY NEED TO GO SOMEPLACE ELSE!

 

This subforum is intended for discussions regarding chapter 10 of the Tao Te Ching and it's meaning, not off-topic discussions regarding one's own personal beliefs regarding Taoism. I would ask that you continue any off-topic discussions in the Taoist Discussions section of this forum. If you have any questions regarding this, please see the subforum FAQ.

 

Aaron

Edited January 25, 2013 by Aaron

[ChiDragon]

BTW This is a Taoist environment after all; it can be putted in a nicer tone.....

Edited January 25, 2013 by ChiDragon

[takaaki]

BTW This is a Taoist environment after all; it can be putted in a nicer tone.....

 

Actually, I quite like Aaron's tone. He is speaking straight from his heart even though his view that the early settlers were crackpot Christians is shocking. He could be right, but even if he is wrong at least he is honsest about his perception. And that, for me, is the critically important thing for self-cultivation.

 

In opening and closing the Heavenly Gate, Aaron has given us his take on the going-ons here.

 

能為雌乎? Perhaps not to you because he was quite forceful. And I think I would like to discuss his views within the context of Chapter Ten right here in this sub-forum.

[takaaki]

I am an authority on the Tao Te Ching. I've studied it for over 20 years. I have a thorough understanding of its teachings. Now I might not have an extensive academic knowledge regarding the differences between the different tracts found, such as the Mawangdui and Guodian texts, but I do know what it's saying.

 

 

Ok, so what is Chapter 10 saying to you? I can accept your authority on what the Tao Te Ching says to you. But this Chinese Classic behaves like a woman who would say a different thing to each of her many lovers. You obviously think you are her one true love. Every bum in this cathouse does feel the same way. So, please tell me what Chapter 10 is saying to you.

 

 

You obviously don't know what the Tao Te Ching is saying and much of what you postulate in this topic has nothing to do with an examination of the Tao Te Ching, but rather your own opinion regarding Taoism. Please stop that, since that isn't what this thread and subforum are meant to be. This whole American Taoist crap needs to go somewhere else.

 

 

You are quite right about my lack of knowledge of the Tao Te Ching. This is because I have been unable to examine it directly. I can only opine on the Taoism that has been derived from the examinations that others like you have conducted on the Tao Te Ching. I will restrict my examination to what you bums have to say in this thread and subforum. Is that ok?

 

 

Now, in regards to you presenting yourself as an authority, well if you're not, then you certainly believe your opinions regarding it are the only correct ones. You are also quick to attack others and give them what you believe are clever put downs hidden in compliments.

 

 

No, my opinions are not the only correct ones. And I really think you ought to mind your own business with regard to what you perceive as my attacks on others. If I have been insensitively cruel in my interactions, I am sure the adults here are quite capable of calling me out.

 

 

Your understanding of America is vastly off base as well, especially in regards to the spiritual nature of our nation. The thing most people don't want to talk about is that the religions that did come to America to be able to practice without oppression, more often than not were the most ultra conservative that were being suppressed in Europe, not just because they deviated from popular religious thought, but were in fact, in many cases, cults. As a result of this spiritual legacy of ultra conservatism, we are one of the most sexually confused nations in the world. We also happen to be one of the most violent nations, as far as crimes per capita go. Your idealization of America is a bit unfounded and perhaps indicative of your actual knowledge regarding the topic at hand.

 

 

Off topic. No comment.

 

 

If you want to laude yourself as an American Taoist, that's fine, but be sure to clarify that it has little to nothing to do with Taoism, but rather is your own loosely defined ethos of materialism. I see a lot of people that want to deny that the Tao Te Ching is a moral text, that it advocates behaving any way you "feel" is right, but that's the furthest thing from the truth. These people have no knowledge of Tao, Taoism, or the Tao Te Ching, but rather look for a philosophy that will allow them to behave any way they choose to, without having any moral repercussions. The irony is that regardless of what one believes, there will always be moral repercussions, so long as we continue to define things as right and wrong, which you seem to be adamant about.

 

 

I am losing you here. What you say here about the moral text and moral repercussions sounds correct and I agree. But I take exception to your rejection of American Taoism as “illegitimate”. What about Wudang Taoism and Mao Shan Taoism? How come they are kosher and the American version is not? Each one has the right to pick up the Tao Te Ching and come away with what works for him or her. Self-determination is the grounding principle of American Taoism. No one gets to tell the American Taoist what is right for him or her without moral repercussions.

 

 

How great is the difference between "eh" and "oh"? Must I believe what others believe? But perhaps even more importantly, why the hell do people need to believe the way you believe?

 

They don’t, and they won’t. I wonder why you would need to point this out?

 

 

 

You are not that clever, nor are you that knowledgeable that you need to go around clarifying other people's errors, nor should you be touting yourself as someone who knows what Taoism actually is, when you clearly haven't got the slightest clue. Taoism is more than just folk lore, qi, and philosophy, which is something you have missed. You need not believe in the folk lore and spirituality to understand Tao, but believing in these things doesn't prevent one from understanding it either, if it did, then Lao Tzu would've been the first person misled by his own "superstitions".

 

 

Comment noted.

 

 

I hope that clarifies some things. If you have any questions, I'll be happy to answer them for you, but please keep in mind, if it isn't directly related to Chapter 10 of the Tao Te Ching, they need to be directed someplace else. Send me a private message linking to your new topic if you want.

 

 

You have made yourself very clear. I look forward to discussing your views on Chapter 10.

Edited January 26, 2013 by takaaki

[takaaki]

BTW This is a Taoist environment after all; it can be putted in a nicer tone.....

 

Yangzi (揚子) said: 人而無禮，焉以為德？