[TTC Study] Chapter 11 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 11

 

 

John Wu

 

THIRTY spokes converge upon a single hub;

It is on the hole in the center that the use of the cart hinges.

We make a vessel from a lump of clay;

It is the empty space within the vessel that makes it useful.

We make doors and windows for a room;

But it is these empty spaces that make the room livable.

Thus, while the tangible has advantages,

It is the intangible that makes it useful.

 

 

 

English/Feng

 

Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub;

It is the center hole that makes it useful.

Shape clay into a vessel;

It is the space within that makes it useful.

Cut doors and windows for a room;

It is the holes which make it useful.

Therefore benefit comes from what is there;

Usefulness from what is not there.

 

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

1. Thirty spokes unite in one hub;

2. It is precisely where there is nothing, that we find the usefulness of the wheel.

3. We fire clay and make vessels;

4. It is precisely where there's no substance, that we find the usefulness of clay pots.

5. We chisel out doors and windows;

6. It is precisely in these empty spaces, that we find the usefulness of the room.

7. Therefore, we regard having something as beneficial;

8. But having nothing as useful.

 

 

Comments?

[strawdog65]

Just as things serve their purpose, so to do the spaces between things.

Filling up all the spaces allow no use.

The spaces within and without, are the playgrounds of the mind and body.

 

Looking beyond the apparent expected use of an item, seeing it's

complete purpose and usefulness, thinking beyond limitation.

 

Peace!

[Marblehead]

Just as things serve their purpose, so to do the spaces between things.

Filling up all the spaces allow no use.

The spaces within and without, are the playgrounds of the mind and body.

 

Looking beyond the apparent expected use of an item, seeing it's

complete purpose and usefulness, thinking beyond limitation.

 

Peace!

 

Yep. And also, if we have nothing we have no limitations.

 

I am a perfect example of that. I have my cats and my fish ponds. I cannot stay away from home very long because the cats and fish need be cared for. Because of this I have restricted myself from travelling.

 

If my external world were empty there would be no limitations.

[cheya]

Prefacing chapter 11, Waysun Liao writes :

"The void and emptiness is invisible, but it is substantial. The True Tao includes the power of 'have' and 'have not'.
Unfortunately, the usefulness of nothingness is ignored in our daily life," explained Laotzu."

After translating the specific verses, Laotzu says
"Inside the emptiness there is a useful essence."
and then goes on to describe two ways to access that essence, the power of One Chi.

(pages 84 and 85 of Nine Nights with the Taoist Master)

I'd be so tickled if others who have read Nine Nights would chime in...
It's one thing to report what he says, but I'd love to have a deeper conversation about what Liao MEANS!

 

Edited August 23, 2016 by cheya

[Marblehead]

Nice input Cheya.

 

No, I haven't read it but if you want to continue adding his comments to each of the chapters posted I think that would be great. There might even be a discussion resulting naturally from something he had said.

[manitou]

Yutang: THE UTILITY OF NOT-BEING

 

Thirty spokes unite around the nave;

From their not-being (losing of their individuality)

Arises the utility of the wheel.

 

Mould clay into a vessel;

From its not-being (in the vessel's hollow)

Arises the utility of the vessel.

Cut out doors and windows in the house (wall),

From their non-being (empty space) arises the utility of the house.

And by the non-existence of things we are served.

 

 

 

I like Yutang because he's a bit on the metaphysical side, he sort of speaks to my brain. What I get from this is that we are the thirty spokes uniting around the nave of not-being; it is from losing our individuality in the metaphysical sense that we become One. The essence is the Void in the center, the Tao; and we, those of us who are united around the Void in communication are of great value to the upward evolution of all of this. We here are of united utility (and in many cases, Intent). All it takes is our awareness and agreement with the process.

When he says 'By the non-existence of things we are served', this could refer to the Not-doing aspect of the Tao spirit, the wu-wei. We are 'served' with the dynamic energy that is derived from not-doing.

[dawei]

I'd be so tickled if others who have read Nine Nights would chime in...

It's one thing to report what he says, but I'd love to have a deeper conversation about what Liao MEANS!

I wanted to let you know that the books premise of telling the DDJ through a wandering Lao Zi was too hard to pass up, so I bought a copy. Thanks for sharing this at the site. And I think it would be great to continue to see Liao, Ni, and Yutang posted as you all who are doing that have the energy to do so. I like the mix, regardless if I agree or not.

[strawdog65]

Just wanted to add this:

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf5aYzbB4JM&feature=related

[Marblehead]

Yep.

 

I enjoyed those shows a lot. It seemed that there was always at least one Taoist concept presented in each program.

[zerostao]

with chapter 11 i consider the basic groundwork for creativity.

unity within multiplicity

is it only here in our world that we are confronted with multiplicities and polarities?

in the absolute realm opposites and diversities are interfused?

 

we look at things from the point of view of their identity , then all things become one.

to see things relatively is to recognize them in their diversities but in an absolute sense the diversities are reconciled in unity.

 

all is one and one is all. as soon as one absorbs all then one interpenetrates into all.

likewise, as soon as all absorbs into one then all will interpenetrate into one.

this way the inner reality of multiplicity is completely interfused and interpenetrated

and identified.

[Marblehead]

with chapter 11 i consider the basic groundwork for creativity.

unity within multiplicity

is it only here in our world that we are confronted with multiplicities and polarities?

in the absolute realm opposites and diversities are interfused?

 

we look at things from the point of view of their identity , then all things become one.

to see things relatively is to recognize them in their diversities but in an absolute sense the diversities are reconciled in unity.

 

all is one and one is all. as soon as one absorbs all then one interpenetrates into all.

likewise, as soon as all absorbs into one then all will interpenetrate into one.

this way the inner reality of multiplicity is completely interfused and interpenetrated

and identified.

 

WoW! You did a lot of penetrating there. Hehehe.

 

Yes, it is very hard the build a window before we have built the wall.

 

I try to be cautious when talking about "all is one and one is all" because I think we should notforget about the three aspects (realms) of Tao, the Manifest, the Mystery and Chi.

[stan herman]

[Marblehead]

[zerostao]

WoW! You did a lot of penetrating there. Hehehe.

 

Yes, it is very hard the build a window before we have built the wall.

 

I try to be cautious when talking about "all is one and one is all" because I think we should notforget about the three aspects (realms) of Tao, the Manifest, the Mystery and Chi.

good points. i do feel creativity is way to get closer to the tao.

i am also positioning myself for chapter 39.

[Marblehead]

i am also positioning myself for chapter 39.

 

That shouldn't be too long now. Hehehe.

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 11

1. 三十幅共一轂，

2. 當其無，

3. 有車之用。

4. 埏埴以為器，

5. 當其無，

6. 有器之用。

7. 鑿戶牖以為室，

8. 當其無，

9. 有室之用。

10.故有之以為利，

11.無之以為用。

 

LaoTze always use complementary therms Wu and You to illustrate his points.

His definitions of these term for this chapter are:

無(Wu): empty space; none

有(You): Solid body; exist

 

In this chapter LaoTze wants to emphasize the use of space.

1. Thirty spokes with one hub,

2. Where there is space,

3. It has the function as a carriage.

Interpretation for lines 1 to 3:

It is not the spokes are useful, but the the space between the hub and the wheel is.

 

4. Knead clay to make a utensil,

5. Where there is space,

6. It has the function as a utensil.

Interpretation for lines 4 to 6:

It is not the wall of the utensil is useful. but it is the space inside is.

 

7. Chisel a door and window,

8. Where there is space,

9. It has the function as a room.

Interpretation for lines 7 to 9:

It is not the door and window are useful, but it is the empty space that made the room useful.

 

10.Therefore, "solid" is its benefit;

11.Space is its function.

Interpretation for lines 10 to 11:

Therefore, something is really there is not useful, but it is really nothing there is.

 

Again, LaoTze's philosophy is always look at the negative side to understand the positive side. In this chapter, he emphasized the space that was useful instead of the object itself. This negative-positive or yin-yang pattern was found throughout the Tao Te Ching.

[Marblehead]

 

Again, LaoTze's philosophy is always look at the negative side to understand the positive side. In this chapter, he emphasized the space that was useful instead of the object itself. This negative-positive or yin-yang pattern was found throughout the Tao Te Ching.

 

Yep. A few years ago, wanting to find something to replace dualistic thinking, I had a discussion with Rene (a member here) and she suggested 'useful' and 'useless' (to me).

 

This works so much better for me in that it eliminates the need to judge for any other purpose except the usefulness of something to me. But, just because something is useless to me does not mean that in will not be useful for others.

 

And I agree, it is the empty space that is of most value. If my coffe cup is full of tea I cannot put any coffee in it. That old story about a person's cup being full. If our mind is full of opinions there is no room for a new or better opinion. (Of course, we all know that I have lots of opinions. Hehehe. But I do try to maintain a litlle empty space in there.)

[ChiDragon]

"it is the empty space that is of most value. If my coffe cup is full of tea I cannot put any coffee in it. That old story about a person's cup being full. If our mind is full of opinions there is no room for a new or better opinion."

 

The subject here is about the value of the space. In your scenario, you had the benefit of filling the cup with tea. In the first place, you want to have tea, why thinking about filling the sup with coffee. However, if you'd changed your mind, you can empty your cup and the space is available again. Why put yourself in such a dilemma to confuse the issue here...???

[Marblehead]

"it is the empty space that is of most value. If my coffe cup is full of tea I cannot put any coffee in it. That old story about a person's cup being full. If our mind is full of opinions there is no room for a new or better opinion."

 

The subject here is about the value of the space. In your scenario, you had the benefit of filling the cup with tea. In the first place, you want to have tea, why thinking about filling the sup with coffee. However, if you'd changed your mind, you can empty your cup and the space is available again. Why put yourself in such a dilemma to confuse the issue here...???

 

Maybe someone else put tea in my coffee cup?

 

And yes, in this case my coffee cup would be useless to me until the cup was emptied.

 

So yes, I am speaking to the empty space that is now not available to me.

 

Yes, there is still benefit in having the cup. I can pour the tea out. Then I will again have its benefit as well as its usefulness.

 

If I were still working and had a reserved parking place and one day I went into work and someone else had parked in my place I would still have the benefit of the reserved spot but it would be totally useless to me.

[ChiDragon]

"If I were still working and had a reserved parking place and one day I went into work and someone else had parked in my place I would still have the benefit of the reserved spot but it would be totally useless to me."

 

Again, the philosophy here was the availability of space, it was not an issue that the space was available to whom. I'm speaking in a pure philosophical sense without any personal attachment. IMO In a conclusive discussion, it should be ended at a point without an infinite loop....

Edited May 29, 2011 by ChiDragon

[Marblehead]

"If I were still working and had a reserved parking place and one day I went into work and someone else had parked in my place I would still have the benefit of the reserved spot but it would be totally useless to me."

 

Again, the philosophy here was the availability of space, it was not an issue that the space was available to whom. I'm speaking in a pure philosophical sense without any personal attachment. IMO In a conclusive discussion, it should be ended at a point without an infinite loop....

 

I understand what you are saying ChiDragon. I was just relating the chapter to how it applies to 'my' life. That's what philosophy is all about, isn't it?

[ChiDragon]

If I were still working and had a reserved parking place and one day I went into work and someone else had parked in my place I would still have the benefit of the reserved spot but it would be totally useless to me.

 

I understand what you are saying ChiDragon. I was just relating the chapter to how it applies to 'my' life. That's what philosophy is all about, isn't it?

 

In that case, you go find another available parking space else where. Then, you still would have a useful space....

[Marblehead]

In that case, you go find another available parking space else where. Then, you still would have a useful space....

 

Hehehe. I think we have milked this cow dry.

 

Please keep posting your translations of chapters the members have already discussed. I am enjoying them and I am sure there are others who are as well.

[whitesilk]

cross referencing the zhuangzi, I've read the idea, what's the use in being useful... will not a tree grow large if a boat/wo/man cannot use it's wood for his/her ship? Therefore, is it not better to not be useful?

[Marblehead]

cross referencing the zhuangzi, I've read the idea, what's the use in being useful... will not a tree grow large if a boat/wo/man cannot use it's wood for his/her ship? Therefore, is it not better to not be useful?

 

Yep. That is a problem though, especially for younger folks.

 

Myself, being a senior, can be very useless to others and it actually enhances my life.

 

A younger person though, must oftain the needed things in order to live a comfortable life. Therefore they need to be of value to others and therefore be used by others. But there is a big differences between being used and being misused. We don't want to be breaking all our bones trying to be of value to others.