[TTC Study] Chapter 12 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Marblehead]

Chapter 12

 

John Wu

 

THE five colors blind the eye.

The five tones deafen the ear.

The five flavors cloy the palate.

Racing and hunting madden the mind.

Rare goods tempt men to do wrong.

Therefore, the Sage takes care of the belly, not the eye.

He prefers what is within to what is without.

 

 

 

English/Feng

 

The five colors blind the eye.

The five tones deafen the ear.

The five flavors dull the taste.

Racing and hunting madden the mind.

Precious things lead one astray.

Therefore the sage is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees.

He lets go of that and chooses this.

 

 

 

Robert Henricks

 

1. The five colors cause one's eyes to go blind.

2. Racing horses and hunting cause one's mind to go mad.

3. Goods that are hard to obtain pose an obstacle to one's travels.

4. The five flavors confuse one's palate.

5. The five tones cause one's ears to go deaf.

6. Therefore, in the government of the Sage:

7. He's for the belly and not for the eyes.

8. Thus he rejects that and take this.

 

 

It was suggested to me that if three Chapters were presented at one time there would be more to speak to and we could have a little longer break in between the posting of new chapters giving more people the opportunity to join in on the discussions.

 

We'll see how it goes.

 

Comments to the chapter?

[strawdog65]

Is this about illusion of desire?

Or maybe about when is enough?

Or even attachment to anything outside

of yourself? At least that is as long as you

have a full belly, what more is needed?

 

 

Peace!

[Marblehead]

Is this about illusion of desire?

Or maybe about when is enough?

Or even attachment to anything outside

of yourself? At least that is as long as you

have a full belly, what more is needed?

 

 

Peace!

 

I think that this speaks well to the concept of excess as well as to the seeking of the thrills of the externals. I mean, let's face it, if we eat caviar every evening it becomes very boring.

 

Constantly seeking the excesses of life will keep us with a worried mind.

 

What better life is there than to have our basic needs satisfied and a comforable place to rest when our work is done?

[cheya]

 

 

Chapter 12

It was suggested to me that if three Chapters were presented at one time there would be more to speak to and we could have a little longer break in between the posting of new chapters giving more people the opportunity to join in on the discussions.

We'll see how it goes.

Comments to the chapter?

Hi Marblehead,
For me chapter twelve contains instructions for staying on the path. It's about keeping the main thing the main thing. The five senses can easily draw us away from the path. Withdrawing from the distractions of the five senses or at least keeping in mind where focusing on them leads, allows us to focus on the internal chi, which for me is the path to merge with the Tao. Thus the mention of the belly is not about eating, but about staying focused on the Tantien, the main doorway to internal work.

Liao translates chapter 12-4:
"Therefore the saint is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees."

Re three chapter posting. Personally, I don't care for the three-chapters-at-a-time plan. It seems to dissipate the focus. I really like feeling like we're all looking at one chapter at the same time. Regards posting specific chapters more randomly: of course I have some "favorite" chapters which I'm eager to discuss, but I'm really happy to wait for them to come up in turn, keeping to the sequence and flow of the TTC.

  Edited August 23, 2016 by cheya

[Marblehead]

Hi Cheya,

 

First, nice understanding of the chapter.

 

As to three or one at a time I will let others decide how this series flows. I am very flexible with this and I suppose others will be making the decisions. I can accept any format just as long as we keep the series going.

[rene]

Adeha, hi

 

Mea culpa on the 3 at a time suggestion. We're all just feeling our way around here, trying different things and your (and everyones') input is most appreciated. It might be that one at a time works out better, and either way I hope that we do stick to sequential movement through the Chapters. There's no rush to get anywhere specific and it might be that the flow from one to the next adds in a dynamic not previously considered!

[manitou]

Or even attachment to anything outside

of yourself? At least that is as long as you

have a full belly, what more is needed?

 

 

 

As I've got a copy of Lin Yutang's translation on my desk, I always grab it too. I noticed something interesting. In Wu's translation, one of the lines is:

 

'Rare goods tempt men to do wrong.'

 

English/Feng, it was "Precious things lead one astray".

 

In both of the above cases, the dynamic was acting from the inside out, to the outer world.

 

Henrick's translation, it was "Goods that are hard to obtain pose an obstacle to one's travels"

 

This can be seen either way: it is time-consuming to obtain goods that are hard to obtain and therefore does present a time obstacle to one's outer dimension, or 'travels.' It seems that it can be seen in the opposite sense too. In the realm of inner travels, that thing that we do because it leads to our center, the obstacle can be looked at differently. If something is hard to obtain, it is 'valuable'. The more we value that hard to obtain thing, the more difficult it is to get to the center of our selves.

 

Lin Yutang seems to tend more toward the inner journey. His wordage is 'Rare, valuable goods keep their owners awake at night.' It can't be interpreted to include the journey from the inner to the outer. It's all inner and reflects back on the manifester of the valuable goods, not his travels.

 

It seems like such a small thing, but in reality it seems to indicate a dichotomy of direction of the various translations on the very same point.

Edited December 16, 2010 by manitou

[Marblehead]

Hi Manitou,

 

Nice post.

 

I agree that this chapter speaks to both our outer world and our inner world. Any unsatisfied desire is an obstacle to both outer travel as well as inner travel (contentment).

[dawei]

Wu = 'Rare goods tempt men to do wrong.'

English/Feng = "Precious things lead one astray".

Henricks = "Goods that are hard to obtain pose an obstacle to one's travels"

Yutang = 'Rare, valuable goods keep their owners awake at night.'

 

----

 

Good catch on the variations. Here is what is going on from what I can tell.

 

Wu translates 行-妨 = Xing as 'behavior' and Feng as 'harm': Do Wrong

E-F translates 行妨 = Xing Feng as travel-interference; Astray

Hendricks translation, based on older text seems to ignore the older text. His meaning is purely the latter text by future association: one's travels

Yutang translates 妨 (harm, interfere) as 防 (guard). In his commentary he says, this line means, "Keep one on one's guard"; keep their owners awake at night

 

Yutang puts the subject as the owner [of goods] rather that the seeker [of goods].

 

--- Further Points ---

 

Second half of the Line in question:

MWD A: 使人-之-行方 - People/Messengers/Others-?? (方-very old and base character)

MWD B: 使人-之-行仿 - People/Messengers/Others-?? (仿-imitate/copy)

WB: 令-人-行-妨 - Cause-Man-travel/behavior-hinder/obstruction/harm

 

Notice that MWD A, MWD B, and WB all have different characters (方 vs 仿 vs 妨).

 

使人 - this seems to be a compound in older text but the later WB treats it as "cause people" (令-人).

 

行方 - This exists in a few old texts (particularly 行方者) but not sure what to make of it here.

Edited December 22, 2010 by dawei

[Marblehead]

Yeah. I guess that it all boils down to the fact that desires for the material things in life present obstacles in our path, whatever that path might be.

[dawei]

I wanted to look at the last lines more. The reason that hendricks says:

 

6. Therefore, in the government of the Sage

 

is because the older text have the word for 'governing' which later text take out.

 

7. He's for the belly and not for the eyes.

 

This line does have the word for 'belly' vs 'eyes' and Feng/English translates more like inner sense (feels) vs outer sense (sees).

 

8. Thus he rejects that and take this.

 

While this line has the words for 'that' and 'this', translating as such seems so literal; Wu uses the idea of the inner sense (within) and outer sense (without).

 

This seems consistent with the opening lines describing the outer sense vs the Sages focus on the inner (belly). But in regards to governing, it seems to suggest the Sage wants to govern the people's basic needs so that they ignore their sense of [external] desire.

 

But I wonder if anyone sees a contrast between 'self' and 'others'? It always seems that Lao Zi is portrayed as trying to forget self, or put self last. But it seems that a fundamental aspect is to take care of self [first] then you can take care of others. Whereby the inner sense is really 'self' and the outer sense is really 'others'?

 

Any thoughts?

Edited December 24, 2010 by dawei

[Marblehead]

Any thoughts?

 

Oh!, so damned many it is pathetic.

 

When I am speaking of Taoist Philosophy and to the individual I usually use the word "self" to define the physical being and the word "Self" to define its inner essence.

 

As "Self" is with a cap "S" I am implying that this is of more importance. However, is it really?

 

It is true that if we do not take care of our body our mind (brain) will be of little use to us, that is, we will be very limited as to what we will be capable of.

 

On the other hand, if we do not take care of our inner essence our life may well be a total disaster.

 

So therefore I still think that "7. He's for the belly and not for the eyes." is very important in that we are taking care of our physical being and not being distracted from living a peaceful life from the attraction of all the "pretty things" that others have and we might could have if we allow these to become desires that we are constantly striving after and thereby not allowing ourself and inner peace.

 

So the Sage rejects the "pretty things" and concerns her/himself with the basic needs of a comfortable life. And a full belly is one of those needs.

[Procurator]

I wanted to look at the last lines more. The reason that hendricks says:

Sage wants to govern the people's basic needs so that they ignore their sense of [external] desire.

 

But I wonder if anyone sees a contrast between 'self' and 'others'? It always seems that Lao Zi is portrayed as trying to forget self, or put self last. But it seems that a fundamental aspect is to take care of self [first] then you can take care of others. Whereby the inner sense is really 'self' and the outer sense is really 'others'?

 

Any thoughts?

The story arc here is 3 fold as usual: 1. an obvious premise 2 example of a commonsense beneficial action based on that premise 3 generalisation of that action into a non-obvious, secret governance rule

 

so:

 

1 external stimuli disorganise ruler's heart. 2 so the wan counters it with 為腹, which is a contraction of a 為腹心 a meditative exercise often mentioned in texts 3 THEREFORE one needs to always take care of what is close and internal, and leave what is outside and external well alone.

[dawei]

When I am speaking of Taoist Philosophy and to the individual I usually use the word "self" to define the physical being and the word "Self" to define its inner essence....

 

As "Self" is with a cap "S" I am implying that this is of more importance.

So the Sage rejects the "pretty things" and concerns her/himself with the basic needs of a comfortable life. And a full belly is one of those needs.

I can follow your distinction. I guess I am curious if Lao Zi really removes these distinctions on some level, although he points to the inner sense (or comfort), it's the whole self he means.

 

I just commented on the chapter 13 and now see more ideas about "self" and what I was thinking on some level. I guess I was trying to take it to a higher concept level.

 

I think taking care of the basic needs is somewhat universal message. I recall someone pointing out how Jesus would feed the people before talking to them. Very pragmatic.

[dawei]

1 external stimuli disorganise ruler's heart. 2 so the wan counters it with 為腹, which is a contraction of a 為腹心 a meditative exercise often mentioned in texts 3 THEREFORE one needs to always take care of what is close and internal, and leave what is outside and external well alone.

I like how you tie the stimuli working on the heart to 為腹心.

[Marblehead]

I can follow your distinction. I guess I am curious if Lao Zi really removes these distinctions on some level, although he points to the inner sense (or comfort), it's the whole self he means.

 

I just commented on the chapter 13 and now see more ideas about "self" and what I was thinking on some level. I guess I was trying to take it to a higher concept level.

 

I think taking care of the basic needs is somewhat universal message. I recall someone pointing out how Jesus would feed the people before talking to them. Very pragmatic.

 

Hi Dawei,

 

Agree. To your first paragraph, yes, I am sure that Lao Tzu did merge the two 'selfs' just as Chuang Tzu did when I read him and as many others have whether they call themselves Taoist, Buddhist, or Atheists.

 

I'm not there yet so I still speak to the two.

 

Yes, this 'self' concept can easily be taken to many higher levels. I don't speak to that much because these ideals are not that firmly planted in my understands. (I'm really not that much of a mystical person. I think y'all have noticed that by now. Hehehe.)

[ChiDragon]

Chapter 12 - The Extravagant World

1. 五色令人目盲

2. 五音令人耳聾

3. 五味令人口爽

4. 馳騁畋獵

5. 令人心發狂

6. 難得之貨

7. 令人行妨

8. 是以聖人為腹不為目

9. 故去彼取此

 

Translation in terse English

1. Five colors blind the eyes of the beholder.

2. Five tones make people deaf.

3. Five flavors numb the human mouth.

4. Hunting on horse back,

5. Make people's heart go insane.

6. Rare obtainable goods,

7. Make people behave nefariously.

8. A wise man lives for his belly but not for the eyes.

9. Therefore, discard the latter and keep the former.

[Harmonious Emptiness]

Chapter 12 - The Extravagant World

1. 五色令人目盲

2. 五音令人耳聾

3. 五味令人口爽

4. 馳騁畋獵

5. 令人心發狂

6. 難得之貨

7. 令人行妨

8. 是以聖人為腹不為目

9. 故去彼取此

 

Translation in terse English

1. Five colors blind the eyes of the beholder.

2. Five tones make people deaf.

3. Five flavors numb the human mouth.

4. Hunting on horse back,

5. Make people's heart go insane.

6. Rare obtainable goods,

7. Make people behave nefariously.

8. A wise man lives for his belly but not for the eyes.

9. Therefore, discard the latter and keep the former.

 

Basically, don't chase after pleasures of the senses, as they lead away from the center.

 

Is seems perhaps by "his belly" was meant grounded original self, perhaps referring to Dantien?

[ChiDragon]

FYI...

Dan-tien has nothing to do with the Tao Te Ching. It was a term only used by the martial artists to indicate the location where the belly is but not the belly itself. Please do not confuse yourself and create a fallacy within the interpretation of the Tao Te Ching.

[Marblehead]

That's a nice translation.

 

Yes, "lives for his belly" is talking about survival - living life to its fullest potential. Concentrating on the pleasures distracts from what is important.

[Taoist Texts]

well, since the inquiring minds want to know...

 

 

道德經12

 

《道德經》: 五色令人目盲；五音令人耳聾；五味令人口爽；馳騁田獵，令人心發狂；難得之貨，令人行妨。是以聖人為腹不為目，故去彼取此。

《老子河上公章句·檢欲》: 五色令人目盲；五音令人耳聾；五味令人口爽；馳騁畋獵，令人心發狂，難得之貨，令人行妨。是以聖人為腹，不為目，故去彼取此。

《馬王堆·老子甲道經》: 五色使人目明；馳騁田臘，使人□□□；難得之貨，使人之行方；五味使人之口爽；五音使人之耳聾。是以聲人之治也，為腹不□□，故去罷耳此。

《馬王堆·老子乙道經》: 色使人目盲；馳騁田臘，使人心發狂；難得之貨，○使人之行仿；五味使人之口爽；五音使人之耳□。是以聖人之治也，為腹而不為目，故去彼而取此。

 

 

 

 

 

This is a fairly straightforward passage but again with a specific meaning, forgotten by the time it was written down.

 

Luckily this meaning was preserved in just one locus

 

陛下以使者為腹心，而使者以從事為耳目

 

http://ctext.org/pre-qin-and-han?searchu=%E7%82%BA%E8%85%B9&page=2#n74907

 

the emperor makes his ambassadors into his belly and heart, and the ambassadors use their clerks as eyes and ears.

 

 

Whatever that means, it has something to do with the chain of command, whereas the decision makers and the informants are on separate rungs thereof.

 

So the meaning of the chapter is that the sages should be kept by the emperor or self-limit themselves to staying within the seat of the government, getting info from officials on the perimeter. Otherwise the sages will be as dazzled by the info as the sensory organs of the people in the preamble sentence, making the sages unable to govern effectively.

 

In other words sages should 去彼 stay away from what is far 取此 and keep to themselves. Qù bǐ qǔ cǐ appears to be a proverb describing a self evidently optimal behavior in those times.

[dawei]

Whatever that means, it has something to do with the chain of command, whereas the decision makers and the informants are on separate rungs thereof.

 

It may also show the movement of applying the LZ into different life situations; legalist thought would become quite popular for doing this with the LZ.

[ChiDragon]

 

陛下以使者為腹心，而使者以從事為耳目

 

http://ctext.org/pre...¹&page=2#n74907

 

the emperor makes his ambassadors into his belly and heart, and the ambassadors use their clerks as eyes and ears.

 

I believe that the translation was a little slightly off here! It is the other way around.

 

It should read:

The emperor handles his ambassadors as his belly and heart, and use the ambassadors to work as his eyes and ears.

 

Another words, the emperor uses his ambassadors as spies.

 

 

 

Edited November 30, 2014 by ChiDragon