Mindstream

[rex]

I've often heard this term and wondered what was meant by it. It encapsulates a lot of complexity:

 

Mind Stream

 

Edited for tpyos

Edited December 19, 2010 by rex

[Lucky7Strikes]

How do we "know"? How do we "know" what this moment is? That there is a me, or rather "thisness"? Or that this is now and there was a past, and that there will be a future? How do we see movement from one point to the next? How do we know that there is a person sitting in front of me, that it is a person and not a statue, a dream, an imitation? Where do we delineate between this moment then the next, from one thing to another? How do we know if there is or there isn't a universal consciousness, or whether if we are the only consciousness, or that there are separate mindstreams? How do we know whether or not the person in front me is a hallucination, or whether or not I am the butterfly and not the dreamer?

 

Xabir, How is there the knowledge of dependent origination, of Maha? Of interconnectedness if in sitting there is JUST sitting, that in hearing there is JUST sound? If in thinking there is JUST thinking. Where do we draw the boundaries of that "just beingness? Where is the boundary of the experience of hearing and then to the experience of smelling? We can't draw any boundaries...

 

Gold, what you seem to be saying is that we cannot know; there is never a certainty. We cannot know that we know, so we know that we don't know and then there is nothing established and nothing to be negated! Establish the unestablishment, negate negation! Empty the emptiness! Hence the right view takes us to the brink of collapsing everything into uncertainties...and even that view is unestablished...!

 

The entire process of Thusness's stages is the stripping of establishments: the I Am deconstructs our materialist universe, the first stanza strips away an inherent dooer, the second stanza deconstructs everything down to momentary experience! But this is not enough, because even this very experience cannot be grasped because sound is never JUST sound, there is a potential to it, a context to it. Tarin can say all he wants about just feeling the senses..but does he not write about it? Doesn't he return with a perspective on it? It still leaves him imprints, tendencies...there is never JUST experiences of "sound"....to Tarin there is no such thing...there is still an establishment of a view or the real way to experience, and a false way...

 

But, and I think this is very very important, this sense of interconnectedness does NOT arise from establishing a universe, a background, or anything. We do not think universe or a set of causes and conditions and say "A + B + C = D"...It comes from a sense of uncertainty, of ungraspable nature of things. Hence the word dependence is used. Dependent on WHAT? If this sound is not inherent, unestablished, it must arise from something, somewhere, from a cause, from a condition, but Xabir as you said, We don't know! There is no way of knowing because the new moment of "trying to know" arises. Dependence breeds dependence...so we say it is dependent, uncertain, unknownable!

 

Thus the very presence is deconstructed to the uncertainty, uncertainty of this very moment itself! Where does it come from? Where does it go? But then it's GONE! Ungraspable, no boundaries...we are completely and totally OPEN to anything...

 

BUT! the mind, no mind-phenomena-luminosity... still appears through delineation...it works through concepts...It draws the boundaries of "here" "now""sound", when stripped to its very bareness, the "non-dual" experience of things...and it MUST...it must because that is what experience is...we never really, truly experience movement, we experience an impression of a movement, we don't experience space...we experience the impression of space...a THIS...insight is into its ungraspability, D.O, emptiness, whatever else, unsubstantiated..

 

So they say the union of emptiness and luminosity..the uncertainty of certainty...viewless view..

 

So I get it! I get it now when Xabir, you asked me months ago what it meant that sound liberated sound, that touch liberated touch...just as the Buddha upon enlightenment touched the earth as a "witness" to his enlightenment, the arising and passing away fo experience certifies from moment to moment its own very uncertainty! Everything in a let go...let go..let goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

 

:lol: .

Edited December 19, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

"... the cessation of the (volitional) activities is gradual. In one who has entered the first rupa jhana, (the activity of) speech has ceased. In one who has entered the fourth rupa jhana, (the activity of) in-breath and out-breath has ceased. In one who has entered the jhana of the cessation of perception and sensation, (the activity of) perception and cessation has ceased."- the Gautamid, somewhere in the cannon

 

Yes, a forest fire can travel on particles like a plasma through the air- the fire still burns because of fuel, but the fuel is moving. I don't know how that relates to consciousness.

 

The ancestor said, it's not that there isn't practice and verification, just that practice and verification are undefiled. I don't find it so easy to enter meditative states, but I do know the feeling that exists when volitional activity ceases in the movement of breath. The view that consciousness depends on sense object/sense organ seems more conducive to that cessation than the view that there is a continuity of consciousness, as far as I can tell. The experience of the place of consciousness effecting a stretch and a reciprocity of stretch is occasionally sharp, and the ability to feel is the means I find to accept the experience, yet I find none of it has any meaning outside the context of the cessation of volition in inhalation and exhalation. I can't make volition cease in inhalation and exhalation with continuity through the exercise of will directly, only through the place of occurrence of mind, and it helps me to accept that the mind is spontaneously placed by the respiration of breath and the respiration of the cranial-sacral fluid.

Hi Mark,

 

In my perspective, it's not about ceasing or beginning things, it's knowing that the things are without boundaries. It's also not about ceasing volition, but knowing that there is no one to have volition, but only the false idea that there was someone there at first to make a choice...

[SFJane]

Hi everyone,

 

I've been looking into the concept of the mindstream, and just wanted people's insights into its meaning and usage in Buddhism.

 

 

Too bad you didn't ask for the Taoist usage. I might have been able to help you there.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Too bad you didn't ask for the Taoist usage. I might have been able to help you there.

Hi Jane,

 

I'd be happy to hear your input.

 

[Birch]

I'd like to hear the Taoist version too

[SFJane]

Hi Jane, I'd be happy to hear your input.

 

Thanks for the invite Lucky As the original post was stated, I was not going to barge in and start dispensing my opinion without one. I've made it clear that I am not a Buddhist, never have been. I do not pretend to be knowledgeable about Buddhist practices and ideas. Most folks here know me as someone who talks about Water Method Taoism for the most part. I was not going to post something --here-- and then have someone jump in and censor me for typing about Taoism in a thread specifically about Buddhism. But now that that's not a concern, I feel better about saying a few things.

 

Because I was head-over-heels involved with Bruce Frantzis material in my twenties, I think that the first time I read about the mindstream within a meditation framework was on pages 117 to 118 of the 1st edition printing of 'Relaxing Into Your Being' by BKF. I read the definition again and again and again. Then I put the book down and forgot about it. When I ran into the mindstream during practice, I knew, after a little bit, what it was I was dealing with. I am going to post a few nugget from his book and then talk a little bit about how I realized the mindstream on my own.

 

(Some paraphrasing and skipping about)

 

From 'Relaxing Into Your Being'

“In learning Taoist beginning practices you have begun the process of feeling inside yourself. The next stage requires that you be aware of that very awareness. In many traditions this is called 'Witnessing the mind', however it is only the beginning of the meditative process. As you become more familiar with the process of being aware of awareness itself, you may also begin to sense a subtle stream that pervades your awareness. This is the mindstream, the contact point that will eventually lead you to Universal Consciousness itself, which is much greater than normal awareness itself.

 

The mindstream, which is quite distinct from the motion of the mind (going from one conscious thought to the next), is hidden to most of us only because it has never been explicitly sought or given attention. As you emerge more deeply into the mindstream, things that were heretofore incredibly subtle and barely discernible become obvious. Within the mindstream is included, in ever more subtle shades, all the content of your first seven bodies.”

So listening to the play of thoughts, watching them come and go, is preparatory for noticing the mindstream, as is inner dissolving. Frankly, I've done a ton of Witnessing of the Mind and it was not witnessing thoughts that led me to contact the mindstream. Not at all saying it can't be done, but there is a trick to it, for real. What allowed me to contact the mindstream was inner dissolving. This is a technique where your intent and awareness are coalescing and imploding deeper and deeper into inner space.

 

This was not a first or second year realization, Lucky, Kate, everyone. This took almost five years for me. The ability for my mind to recognize the mindstream occurred because of three things coming into play together in synergy.

 

The first was the strength of my mind to focus for long periods and not get fatigued or distracted.

 

The second was time. Total patience for whatever might happen, Not expecting, but just waiting to notice or be imprinted on, like a seismograph or photo plate. For as long as it takes.

 

The third was listening quality. That is, the accuracy of my inner radar, seismograph, whatever you want to call it. To be accurate, I had to overcome a lot of artificial stuff my own mind threw up for me to look at and get distracted with (in the earlier days anyway). Being accurate is a skill that really only improves by proving to yourself that you are right over and over again. It means instant-intuition and reliably knowing what is going on and why, and that only comes from a lot of practice at listening to, and making changes to, your internal states.

 

If you asked me which of the three, concentration, listening acuity and patience was more important, I'd be hard pressed to choose. All the patience in the world won't help if your mind's detection and recognition software isn't attuned to subtle states. Likewise, you can have laser concentration but if you are not patient, you can miss it time and time again. Eventually all three factors line up perfectly one day—and you just see it.

 

From my book, Possessing Me: A Memoir of Healing

“As I proceeded with the second pass through, moving back up from my pelvis to my skull, I gained a deeper view into my inner space than anything I had attained previously. As I continued to investigate the properties of the phenomenon of my awareness itself, I found the place from which all intent came. Before you actually felt a feeling, or thought a thought, or sent an impulse into a limb, there was something behind it that moved first. It was the power-behind-the-power. It made inner dissolving work.

 

I sat there for awhile, playing with it. The easiest access route involved surrendering into myself without trying to. I felt my motedom then, and realized I was quintessentially attached to this stream of nothingness. I was like krill drifting through this ocean. When I moved my mind, it seemed invisible. When I was still, it became as plain as day. It was vast, and only by keeping myself utterly still could I sense its movements within and without. On that day I discovered the mindstream. Aided by the mindstream, on the following day I made my final pass.”

 

Everything inside you is sort of suspended within, and is part of, the mindstream. It's always there, twenty four-seven, as they say. It never takes a break, and can be observed at anytime by anyone, provided that they can: detect it accurately, stay present within it, be patient long enough to pass the veil (so-to-speak) and just see/sense/feel it.

 

The effects of contacting the mindstream and dissolving in it and making myself consciously part of it ramped up the meditation work I was doing phenomenally, and was one of the factors that directly contributed to me finding myself. It can not be pointed at, even though it's everywhere. There are no special goggles for it. The only thing you can do in terms of trying to dial someone else in, is be there and try to dissolve someone else while you are there and hope for the best. Hope that helps Lucky.

Edited December 20, 2010 by SFJane

[goldisheavy]

Thanks for the invite Lucky As the original post was stated, I was not going to barge in and start dispensing my opinion without one. I've made it clear that I am not a Buddhist, never have been. I do not pretend to be knowledgeable about Buddhist practices and ideas. Most folks here know me as someone who talks about Water Method Taoism for the most part. I was not going to post something --here-- and then have someone jump in and censor me for typing about Taoism in a thread specifically about Buddhism. But now that that's not a concern, I feel better about saying a few things.

 

This is an open forum and an invite is not necessary. This particular forum is expressly eclectic too.

 

In any case, if you're asking for an invite, make sure too phrase it as such.

 

Too bad you didn't ask for the Taoist usage. I might have been able to help you there.

 

This isn't how normal people ask for an invite.

 

Because I was head-over-heels involved with Bruce Frantzis material in my twenties, I think that the first time I read about the mindstream within a meditation framework was on pages 117 to 118 of the 1st edition printing of 'Relaxing Into Your Being' by BKF. I read the definition again and again and again. Then I put the book down and forgot about it. When I ran into the mindstream during practice, I knew, after a little bit, what it was I was dealing with. I am going to post a few nugget from his book and then talk a little bit about how I realized the mindstream on my own.

 

(Some paraphrasing and skipping about)

 

 

So listening to the play of thoughts, watching them come and go, is preparatory for noticing the mindstream, as is inner dissolving. Frankly, I've done a ton of Witnessing of the Mind and it was not witnessing thoughts that led me to contact the mindstream. Not at all saying it can't be done, but there is a trick to it, for real. What allowed me to contact the mindstream was inner dissolving. This is a technique where your intent and awareness are coalescing and imploding deeper and deeper into inner space.

 

This was not a first or second year realization, Lucky, Kate, everyone. This took almost five years for me. The ability for my mind to recognize the mindstream occurred because of three things coming into play together in synergy.

 

The first was the strength of my mind to focus for long periods and not get fatigued or distracted.

 

The second was time. Total patience for whatever might happen, Not expecting, but just waiting to notice or be imprinted on, like a seismograph or photo plate. For as long as it takes.

 

The third was listening quality. That is, the accuracy of my inner radar, seismograph, whatever you want to call it. To be accurate, I had to overcome a lot of artificial stuff my own mind threw up for me to look at and get distracted with (in the earlier days anyway). Being accurate is a skill that really only improves by proving to yourself that you are right over and over again. It means instant-intuition and reliably knowing what is going on and why, and that only comes from a lot of practice at listening to, and making changes to, your internal states.

 

If you asked me which of the three, concentration, listening acuity and patience was more important, I'd be hard pressed to choose. All the patience in the world won't help if your mind's detection and recognition software isn't attuned to subtle states. Likewise, you can have laser concentration but if you are not patient, you can miss it time and time again. Eventually all three factors line up perfectly one day—and you just see it.

 

 

 

Everything inside you is sort of suspended within, and is part of, the mindstream. It's always there, twenty four-seven, as they say. It never takes a break, and can be observed at anytime by anyone, provided that they can: detect it accurately, stay present within it, be patient long enough to pass the veil (so-to-speak) and just see/sense/feel it.

 

The effects of contacting the mindstream and dissolving in it and making myself consciously part of it ramped up the meditation work I was doing phenomenally, and was one of the factors that directly contributed to me finding myself. It can not be pointed at, even though it's everywhere. There are no special goggles or attunements for it. The only thing you can do is be there and try to dissolve someone else while you are there and hope for the best.

 

This idea of mindstream is very distinct from the Buddhist one. It's like talking about two very different things. In your description, the mindstream is something hidden and mystical. In the Buddhist definition, the mindstream is simply a continuity of mind and mind is not just what we normally think of as "mind", but it's every experience. So mindstream in the Buddhist sense is a simple continuity of experience. The Buddhist version is kind of down to Earth and not very mystical. The Buddhist version of the mindstream is relevant with regard to karmic fruition. Because Buddhists believe that the mind is essentially unborn, the mindstream doesn't begin with birth and doesn't stop at death, thus karmic effects cross the death boundary. So this endless continuity is called "mindstream." It's not an actual stream, like a little river, it's just a figure of speech in Buddhism that refers to an unbroken continuity of experience.

 

So what is the value of the Taoist concept of mindstream? I think mindfulness is a good thing, but one can explain the benefit of mindfulness without the Taoist idea of mindstream.

 

How did life change for you after you found your mindstream in the Taoist sense?

Edited December 20, 2010 by goldisheavy

[sean]

please stay (loosely) on topic. i've moved the off-topic arguing to the pit.

 

sean

[goldisheavy]

Gold, what you seem to be saying is that we cannot know; there is never a certainty. We cannot know that we know, so we know that we don't know and then there is nothing established and nothing to be negated! Establish the unestablishment, negate negation! Empty the emptiness! Hence the right view takes us to the brink of collapsing everything into uncertainties...and even that view is unestablished...!

 

I was just saying that knowledge is like a hallucination*, and I am especially referring to concrete and specific knowledge. Our knowledge is valid for us right now and we shouldn't ignore it. At the same time, there are two important considerations about what we concretely know right now: it's not permanent and it's not "how it always was, is, and will be", and also it's impossible to gain ultimate certainty in any knowledge that pertains to concrete and/or specific things. As knowledge becomes more abstract, it's possible to be more certain. By the time you can be 100% certain, the knowledge you are certain of is so abstract that it cannot be expressed in terms of any specific concrete thing or statements.

 

People are always caught up in the specifics. For example, computers, keyboard, fingers, street names, up, down, Boston, London, and so on. Even things like breathing, sitting, standing, all these are concrete and specific forms of knowledge that aren't as abstract as say knowledge of space or love. When you know the nature of experience, how all meanings arise in interrelations and yet how nothing specific can be taken as ground out of which everything arises, in other words, no knowledge can be proven to be ultimately first or ultimately primary knowledge, that's a very very abstract kind of knowing. It's almost like not knowing anything. In this knowing you can be very certain.

 

*Hallucinations are real in the sense that they do occur, but they're deceptive in the sense that if you make conclusions based on what you see, you will be either wrong or disappointed. So for example, in the desert mirage you see water. It's real in the sense that the vision is occurring, but if you try to drink that water, you'll be disappointed. So that's the quality of illusion. Illusion is not something that's completely fake. There is some truth to it. Inside an illusion there are its own rules and habit energies playing out, but if you try to take things inside an illusion at face value, there is disappointment. So things in an illusion do not exist in the manner they appear to exist, but the fact that an experience is actually occurring is not a lie.

 

But, and I think this is very very important, this sense of interconnectedness does NOT arise from establishing a universe, a background, or anything. We do not think universe or a set of causes and conditions and say "A + B + C = D"...It comes from a sense of uncertainty, of ungraspable nature of things. Hence the word dependence is used. Dependent on WHAT? If this sound is not inherent, unestablished, it must arise from something, somewhere, from a cause, from a condition, but Xabir as you said, We don't know! There is no way of knowing because the new moment of "trying to know" arises. Dependence breeds dependence...so we say it is dependent, uncertain, unknownable!

 

For example, if you pour some water into a pot and set the pot on a hot stove, it will boil. If you snap your fingers together, you'll hear the sound of snapping.

 

There are roughly two kinds of views about the nature of this dependency.

 

One view is that such dependency is hard, established, and always true. This is the view of the physicalists. The physicalists believe that the universe with all its laws is always there and it's always the same and stable. Thus, what you intend has no affect on the water temperature, for one example. Another example, if it takes 10 minutes to get water to boil now, it will also take 10 minutes on the same kind of stove to boil the same amount of water in 100 years from now and in 1 trillion years. So there is the assumption of perpetual immutability of these kinds of dependencies. And phenomenal laws are assumed to be disconnected from our own minds. So physicalists take what they see at face value when it comes to waking experience and they dismiss the dreaming experience as irrelevant and uninformative.

 

Now there is another view about this. This other view explains that what we observe with water is not an immutable law of physics that's inherently established in and of itself, but rather it's a condition in the mind. We can call this condition habit, or habit energy. So why does water behave as it does? It's the habit of mind. With a lot of work it's possible to change the habit of mind and thus make the water behave differently.

 

It's very easy to understand this if you think about what happens in the dream. In your dream there is physics too, right? You walk around in your dream and so you don't float in weightlessness. So there is gravity in dreams. If you learn to lucid dream and pay attention, you'll notice that light in your dream throws off perfectly formed shadows. So how is it that dreams look perfectly physical like that? Do our brains model physics while we dream? Of course not! The answer to this is much simpler. There is no physics. There is no brain. All that exists is mind to begin with, and the experience of stability and reliable predictable patterns is nothing other than habit.

 

Habits come in degrees. Some are more ingrained habits, deeper habits. Some are shallower habits and easier to influence or change. Thus, in your dream even though there is gravity, if you know you're dreaming, you can fly. So all phenomena in dreams and in waking have this kind of psychological quality. What we experience is based on our beliefs, on habits we've accumulated and consented to over long time, on our intent and so on. Psychological factors like confidence and sincerity play a role in how we move and in whether or not we're successful in the illusionary "real world."

 

So the non-established nature of phenomena doesn't just talk about impermanence in the sense of constant perishing, it also talks about intentional malleability and endless renewal. But our intent still has to cope with habit. Or in other words, our intent has depth to it, and what we normally call "intent" is only the surface layer of our true intent. A lot of our intent is committed to maintaining our habits but this is not obvious to the uninitiated. We think our intent is just that which makes us run around and do things. But our intent is far deeper and has far greater scope than that.

Edited December 20, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Vajrahridaya]

I'm not so sure what relatively infinite means, but if a thing is relatively infinite, I'm not sure if it is a thing at all. lol.

 

Nope... as in yep, I agree!

The thing that baffled me over and over is this aspect of "individuality" of mindstreams such as the Buddha's. I think there was a discussion of "how can there be a sense of a continuing sense of self without a link between each moment"...these concepts were in contrast to the uniqueness of each moment's arising and ceasing, anatta, no-doer etc...

 

but the meaning of "imprints" struck me as each moment not disappearing at all, but leaving an effect. My moment of awareness is simply a cause in itself, not any more special or important than other causes however, giving rise to this moment then the next and so on. So if we take the fire example where the fuel and the fire as indistinguishable, the fuel also is a cause and condition for the fire, but also the fire itself from branch to branch, so hence the "sense" of continuum, but nor really a thing there.

 

For most people this sense of continuum results in a sense of selfhood, but for the Buddha, the moment of realization dependently originates as the dharma, realization of the nature of all phenomena simply confirms itself for...eternity...the awareness of a Buddha is eternal!

 

So it struck me that the Buddha is nothing but the dharma, there is no Buddha, but the dharma!

 

Yea man... lovin' this insight.

 

Huge thumbs up!!

 

Also, since both dharma and buddha are interdependent, they... well... to conceptualize here would be a waste of space.

 

But yeah... The Buddhadharma is considered the Eternal Dharma or Sanatanadharma, and this is before that concept was used in later Upanishads in reference to theism and it's ever so slight dualism disguised as non-dualism.

[cheya]

 

 

I am going to post a few nugget from his book and then talk a little bit about how I realized the mindstream on my own.

The ability for my mind to recognize the mindstream occurred because of three things coming into play together in synergy.

The first was the strength of my mind to focus for long periods and not get fatigued or distracted.

The second was time. Total patience for whatever might happen, Not expecting, but just waiting to notice or be imprinted on, like a seismograph or photo plate. For as long as it takes.

The third was listening quality. That is, the accuracy of my inner radar, seismograph, whatever you want to call it. To be accurate, I had to overcome a lot of artificial stuff my own mind threw up for me to look at and get distracted with (in the earlier days anyway). Being accurate is a skill that really only improves by proving to yourself that you are right over and over again. It means instant-intuition and reliably knowing what is going on and why, and that only comes from a lot of practice at listening to, and making changes to, your internal states.

If you asked me which of the three, concentration, listening acuity and patience was more important, I'd be hard pressed to choose. All the patience in the world won't help if your mind's detection and recognition software isn't attuned to subtle states. Likewise, you can have laser concentration but if you are not patient, you can miss it time and time again. Eventually all three factors line up perfectly one day�and you just see it.

Everything inside you is sort of suspended within, and is part of, the mindstream. It's always there, twenty four-seven, as they say. It never takes a break, and can be observed at anytime by anyone, provided that they can: detect it accurately, stay present within it, be patient long enough to pass the veil (so-to-speak) and just see/sense/feel it.

The effects of contacting the mindstream and dissolving in it and making myself consciously part of it ramped up the meditation work I was doing phenomenally, and was one of the factors that directly contributed to me finding myself. It can not be pointed at, even though it's everywhere. There are no special goggles for it.

Hi SFJane,
Thank you SO MUCH for posting this!
I've read Bruce's description before, but your personal experience and understanding is very helpful to my practice.

cheya

[Mark Foote]

Hi Mark,

 

In my perspective, it's not about ceasing or beginning things, it's knowing that the things are without boundaries. It's also not about ceasing volition, but knowing that there is no one to have volition, but only the false idea that there was someone there at first to make a choice...

 

"If you are not disturbed by the sound of the bluejay when you are reading something, the blue jay will come right into your heart, and you will be a bluejay, and the bluejay will be reading something." (Shunryu Suzuki, from his lecture on "Sound and Noise"

 

To me, this is about action that follows from impact and feeling as consciousness takes place. If you have this experience, you are pie-in-the-face sure that there is (at heart) "no doer with regard to this consciousness-informed body".

 

Shikantaza is often translated as "just sitting", but Kobun Chino Otogawa gave it as literally "just hit sit".

 

I like SF Jane's description from Frantzis of the mind stream; I think Shunryu Suzuki described the same thing in his lecture on "whole body zazen":

 

"You may say that your mind is practicing zazen and ignore your body, the practice of your body. Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving."

 

All that's left is to experience the impact of the place of occurrence of mind on stretch and feeling, to have a bluejay read a book. ok, ok, as a necessity in the specific movement of breath.

[al.]

"If you are not disturbed by the sound of the bluejay when you are reading something, the blue jay will come right into your heart, and you will be a bluejay, and the bluejay will be reading something." (Shunryu Suzuki, from his lecture on "Sound and Noise"

 

To me, this is about action that follows from impact and feeling as consciousness takes place. If you have this experience, you are pie-in-the-face sure that there is (at heart) "no doer with regard to this consciousness-informed body".

 

Shikantaza is often translated as "just sitting", but Kobun Chino Otogawa gave it as literally "just hit sit".

 

I like SF Jane's description from Frantzis of the mind stream; I think Shunryu Suzuki described the same thing in his lecture on "whole body zazen":

 

"You may say that your mind is practicing zazen and ignore your body, the practice of your body. Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving."

 

All that's left is to experience the impact of the place of occurrence of mind on stretch and feeling, to have a bluejay read a book. ok, ok, as a necessity in the specific movement of breath.

 

 

hahaa! What a clip! What a joy!

 

‎"the biomagnetic field of the heart extends indefinitely into space. While its strength diminishes with distance, there is no point at which we can say the field ends." j. oschman

[Lucky7Strikes]

I was just saying that knowledge is like a hallucination*...

Thanks Gold, that was a great post!

[Lucky7Strikes]

So listening to the play of thoughts, watching them come and go, is preparatory for noticing the mindstream, as is inner dissolving. Frankly, I've done a ton of Witnessing of the Mind and it was not witnessing thoughts that led me to contact the mindstream. Not at all saying it can't be done, but there is a trick to it, for real. What allowed me to contact the mindstream was inner dissolving. This is a technique where your intent and awareness are coalescing and imploding deeper and deeper into inner space.

 

This was not a first or second year realization, Lucky, Kate, everyone. This took almost five years for me. The ability for my mind to recognize the mindstream occurred because of three things coming into play together in synergy.

 

The first was the strength of my mind to focus for long periods and not get fatigued or distracted.

 

The second was time. Total patience for whatever might happen, Not expecting, but just waiting to notice or be imprinted on, like a seismograph or photo plate. For as long as it takes.

 

The third was listening quality. That is, the accuracy of my inner radar, seismograph, whatever you want to call it. To be accurate, I had to overcome a lot of artificial stuff my own mind threw up for me to look at and get distracted with (in the earlier days anyway). Being accurate is a skill that really only improves by proving to yourself that you are right over and over again. It means instant-intuition and reliably knowing what is going on and why, and that only comes from a lot of practice at listening to, and making changes to, your internal states.

Ah I see, it seems like you are speaking of delving deeper into one's own unconscious. In a way your method answers for the ending of Gold's previous post of delving deeper into one's buried imprints and intentions...

 

I think your practice also relates to concentration practices but it's but into a different vocabulary..the Buddhist samatha jnanas, and in a way it's not so different than gaining insight into one's "mindstream" as you use it. I think they call this emtying out the jnanas in Buddhism, but I'm not so sure.

 

On another note,

 

Are you aware of Kunlun practice? The water methods of Frantzis and Kunlun go really well together imho. .

[Lucky7Strikes]

"If you are not disturbed by the sound of the bluejay when you are reading something, the blue jay will come right into your heart, and you will be a bluejay, and the bluejay will be reading something." (Shunryu Suzuki, from his lecture on "Sound and Noise"

 

To me, this is about action that follows from impact and feeling as consciousness takes place. If you have this experience, you are pie-in-the-face sure that there is (at heart) "no doer with regard to this consciousness-informed body".

 

Shikantaza is often translated as "just sitting", but Kobun Chino Otogawa gave it as literally "just hit sit".

 

I like SF Jane's description from Frantzis of the mind stream; I think Shunryu Suzuki described the same thing in his lecture on "whole body zazen":

 

"You may say that your mind is practicing zazen and ignore your body, the practice of your body. Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving."

 

All that's left is to experience the impact of the place of occurrence of mind on stretch and feeling, to have a bluejay read a book. ok, ok, as a necessity in the specific movement of breath.

Haha yes! When one is in zazen, the whole world sits in zazen! Everything naturally in free fall, naturally in shikantaza!

Edited December 20, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[三江源]

hahaa! What a clip! What a joy!

‎"the biomagnetic field of the heart extends indefinitely into space. While its strength diminishes with distance, there is no point at which we can say the field ends." j. oschman

 

thanks al, for reminding us.

[Birch]

Neat!

 

Is the heart the only field that does that? Or just the only one, one (ok, some people, maybe just me :-() can measure so far, or talk about?

 

Why is it being talked about now? Where did the person come up with that? Cat, why did you repeat it?

 

Maybe it's been measured. I don't know. I guess I'd like to think it was like that, maybe it is and I'm too stupid to realise, too thick, too dumb, too

 

I know I sound cynical, but I'd really love to know what the statement was based on. If it's speculation, then that's ok, but I'd just rather know. If it's personal experience, I'd like to know too. If it's hope, yes I'd like to know.

[Vajrahridaya]

Neat!

 

Is the heart the only field that does that? Or just the only one, one (ok, some people, maybe just me :-() can measure so far, or talk about?

 

Why is it being talked about now? Where did the person come up with that? Cat, why did you repeat it?

 

Maybe it's been measured. I don't know. I guess I'd like to think it was like that, maybe it is and I'm too stupid to realise, too thick, too dumb, too

 

I know I sound cynical, but I'd really love to know what the statement was based on. If it's speculation, then that's ok, but I'd just rather know. If it's personal experience, I'd like to know too. If it's hope, yes I'd like to know.

 

It's experience and no, the heart is not the only field without limit.

[Apech]

It's experience and no, the heart is not the only field without limit.

 

The heart could be seen as a modal center for sentience/feeling and is where we open up to the infinite field ... with the proviso that we are talking in terms of fields without making them eternal sub-strata of reality (that's for you Vaj.) ... so it is not so much that the heart-field is an infinite field but that our hearts open to the infinitude inherent in that which is.

 

That's how I see it anyway.

[Vajrahridaya]

The heart could be seen as a modal center for sentience/feeling and is where we open up to the infinite field ... with the proviso that we are talking in terms of fields without making them eternal sub-strata of reality (that's for you Vaj.) ... so it is not so much that the heart-field is an infinite field but that our hearts open to the infinitude inherent in that which is.

 

That's how I see it anyway.

 

Nicely put. Yes, I was thinking more along the lines of there is also the field of the ajna chakra and having endless knowledge. I've experienced smelling things from long distance, remote viewing... things like this.

 

What does that which I underlined mean?

 

No, just kidding... I get it.

[al.]

Neat!

 

Is the heart the only field that does that? Or just the only one, one (ok, some people, maybe just me :-() can measure so far, or talk about?

 

Why is it being talked about now? Where did the person come up with that? Cat, why did you repeat it?

 

Maybe it's been measured. I don't know. I guess I'd like to think it was like that, maybe it is and I'm too stupid to realise, too thick, too dumb, too

 

I know I sound cynical, but I'd really love to know what the statement was based on. If it's speculation, then that's ok, but I'd just rather know. If it's personal experience, I'd like to know too. If it's hope, yes I'd like to know.

 

Hehe. It is neat!

Oschman is a doctor who wrote a book called 'energy medicine'. In it there is some research on human biomagnetic fields, comparing different parts of the body. If i remember correctly the human heart is the only organ/part of the body which extends infinitely...

The word 'mindstream' and 'mind' suggest to many people something that goes on in the head. However in many eastern systems the base of awareness rests in the heart...

 

In the filming of Suzuki isn't his joy infectious? This is a special joy, like a pure and calm delight in the freshness of being... blessed our we who can drink fresh water! From whence does it spring?

[goldisheavy]

The word 'mindstream' and 'mind' suggest to many people something that goes on in the head. However in many eastern systems the base of awareness rests in the heart...

 

In my understanding the mind is neither in the head nor in the heart. It's not located anywhere. Things like the head and the heart appear in the mind as a result of mind's natural shimmer or living energy. Of course not only do the head and the heart appear in the mind, but everything else appears there as well, including the entire known universe. At the same tame, the mind is also a repository of all potential that does not manifest right now. So not only is it a "place" where things appear, but it's also a place that contextualizes everything without exception and the context for the manifest is the limitless unmanifest potential.

 

This I think is true roughly speaking, but to be precise the mind is not anything specific at all, it is simply the nature of all things, and at the same time, it is also our ordinary day to day mind -- all that is one and the same mind. The ordinary day to day mind is also the mysterious mind that I am talking about.

 

The reason most people don't experience their day to day mind as something amazing is because people saddle the mind with limiting and sometimes outright wrong ideas about the mind. So for example, they imagine they have a mind that's entirely separate from other people's minds, which is false. They imagine the mind to be in the head or in the brain. Or they imagine that the subtle and private experiences are in the mind, but the gross and public experiences are outside the mind. And so on. All these ideas limit and constrain what the mind actually is.

Edited December 22, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Mark Foote]

Haha yes! When one is in zazen, the whole world sits in zazen! Everything naturally in free fall, naturally in shikantaza!

yes, indeed. and the more I recognize activity out of the stretch I'm in as consciousness takes place, the more I can relax and accept feeling. A lifetime of running from the feeling of stretch, and now I am undone! Ha ha!