Tao and Why.

[strawdog65]

Hello everyone!

 

Some thoughts, some questions, some ideas for living.

If it makes sense to you great, if not it's ok if you think

I'm full of shit, it's my life either way.

Lets discuss some of this stuff, I look forward to it!

Please feel free to tell me what you agree/disagree with.

 

 

How does a Taoist live in the world?

What are the things that make a person a Taoist?

 

Is a person who unknowingly acts with Taoist principles,

but has no knowledge of what Toism is, a more natural Taoist

then say someone that has studied and learned to be a Taoist?

To take the child like mind of, Curiosity, intense happiness, intense

saddness, innate empathy, and simple needs such as; food, shelter,

warmth, and feeling safe. Do these simple qualities make up

a natural Taoist?

 

To be one with Tao and make no distinctions of good or bad,

does one need to become more like a simpleton? With all of

the education and knowledge we gain, and the stretching of our

intellect, are we not placing more stumbling blocks into our path

of being more in tune with Tao. Like, to know you are one with

Tao, in the acknowledgment and recognition, you end up losing

what you thought was there. To look and say "there is Tao"

pulls you out, and away from it, you have left the flow of it

by the fact of pointing to a manifestation, and have stopped flowing,

in that moment. To return is to not be conscious of what is Tao,

but to exist in that moment and just BE.

 

Humans have such incredible intellect. Such a need to explain the WHY

of all things. What is the explaining of why in regards to Tao?

Is there not only what is? Is not why absent in the doing and happening

of our lives?

 

Does the fish swimming in the stream, ask why the stream changes direction?

Or does the fish naturally change direction as well, using the flow

of the water to aide him in his journey?

 

Is not the living within whatever constraints we face, the order and way of Tao?

Is not the only reason we humans try to change everything to our will, not

just our own judgment of what we desire to have? Or what we believe we deserve?

Do not our desires for what we perceive we should have cause us to fight against

the natural flow of Tao within our lives?

 

I am not at all suggesting that we should live our lives like a happless leaf floating

wherever the current takes, without any goal or meaning other than that.

I am suggesting that rather than constantly struggling and fighting to have our

lives conform to our desires, we should practice flowing with our life's natural

direction, more so than trying to force it's direction. This means letting life have a

more natural flow, and letting our actions take part in being a positive influence in

the creative force behind that flow.

 

Flowing with things as they happen, and accepting what comes

into our life with the realization that many things come into our

lives by our past actions, and they will effect the future flow

of our life. Making changes, accepting mistakes we've made,

changing course with the flow, and realizing that all things are in

a sense impartial, what can happen will at some point. Bad things

happen, The Tao is impartial, we are its strawdogs, we can only flow

within its constraints.

 

I guess the point I'm trying to make is, live life as is most natural to YOU.

But do your best to not attach yourself to your desire of what you believe

should be. Have more acceptance in life, and less contempt, things in

life may not be want you want them to be.... they just Are.

 

It is a strong urge within us to fight , to try to change things, especially

to survive. But it is part of flowing with Tao(to me) to accept what happens

along the way without judging it to be right or wrong, because you desired

something else to have happened in it's place.

 

To me, this is the best way of reconecting with Tao in our everyday lives.

 

 

 

 

Peace!

Edited December 17, 2010 by strawdog65

[Samuel]

Does the fish swimming in the stream, ask why the stream changes direction?

Or does the fish naturally change direction as well, using the flow

of the water to aide him in his journey?

 

I think that's the difference between humans and fish. Fish don't have to think about it. They just do. Or any creature, other than us. I think we have to be the only things on the planet that are up to our eyeballs in something that we've managed to loose. Our (the human race) relation ship with Tao seems to be as though a fish, in water, asks "How do I get back into the water?!".

 

Does that make sense? I don't think I can explain myself very well.

 

Happy Swimming.

[strawdog65]

I think that's the difference between humans and fish. Fish don't have to think about it. They just do. Or any creature, other than us. I think we have to be the only things on the planet that are up to our eyeballs in something that we've managed to loose. Our (the human race) relation ship with Tao seems to be as though a fish, in water, asks "How do I get back into the water?!".

 

Does that make sense? I don't think I can explain myself very well.

 

Happy Swimming.

 

 

Hi Samuel!

 

I believe you are right on the money....

 

Hey, if you can find the water let me know so

I can jump in!

 

Well said. Thanks for joining in!

 

Peace.

[Spectrum]

Who is the i whom posesses the body as object to be subjectified?

[Marblehead]

Hi Strawdog,

 

Yes, I think that anyone who walks the path of Tao is a Taoist. But let us remember, labels don't really mean anything.

 

As far as the concept of going with the flow, I agree to a limit. Hopefully I can explain.

 

In my life I have learned to place my problems into one of two categories. These categories are: Things I can do something about, and things I cannot do anything about.

 

Things I can do something about to make conditions better for myself ot someone/thing else I will simply do what needs be done and resolve the problem.

 

Things I can do nothing about I simply accept the reality of the situation and stop concerning myself with it.

 

So basically, it is very easy to attain a condition of having no problems in my life. Now I can live spontaneously because there is nothing from the past holding me back.

 

Well, yeah, a leaf on the waters, flowing with the flow, is nice. But let us not forget that the stream may have many waterfalls. There may be places allong the flow where we have to get out of the water and walk a while in order to avoid death or other injuries that would result from going over the waterfalls.

[strawdog65]

Hi Strawdog,

 

Yes, I think that anyone who walks the path of Tao is a Taoist. But let us remember, labels don't really mean anything.

 

As far as the concept of going with the flow, I agree to a limit. Hopefully I can explain.

 

In my life I have learned to place my problems into one of two categories. These categories are: Things I can do something about, and things I cannot do anything about.

 

Things I can do something about to make conditions better for myself ot someone/thing else I will simply do what needs be done and resolve the problem.

 

Things I can do nothing about I simply accept the reality of the situation and stop concerning myself with it.

 

So basically, it is very easy to attain a condition of having no problems in my life. Now I can live spontaneously because there is nothing from the past holding me back.

 

Well, yeah, a leaf on the waters, flowing with the flow, is nice. But let us not forget that the stream may have many waterfalls. There may be places allong the flow where we have to get out of the water and walk a while in order to avoid death or other injuries that would result from going over the waterfalls.

 

 

Hi Marbles!

 

Agreed. I like the simple reasoning of what you say.

Do what we can about what we are able, and accept that outcome.

And accept the situations we can do nothing about for what

they are, nothing more. Judgments of what is, are unnecessary.

 

I was saying for us to not be like a leaf, that we should have

meaning and purpose, and endeavor to make changes that make our lives

aware and full.

 

And yes, lets both get out and walk a bit when the waterfalls

come near. I'd rather appreciate the beauty of falling water from

a distance, then fall on the rocks below.

[manitou]

I rather like your question about whether a person who naturally walks within the flow of nature's laws is more of a Taoist than one who studies the TTC. I believe, yes. Even the Tao has structure when it is communicated (a nearly impossible task); yet a young baby who has no structure is certainly more of a Taoist than those of us who have tried to attain.

 

I made a decision recently; it sounds strange and a bit retarded coming from someone in their mid-60's, I know....but I recently decided to Love Everything I Have. This includes my house, my husband, my dogs, my current situation in life. I decided to stop striving for more. To stop worrying about exactly where in the country I want to live....where would be the very best situation for us....and to just be happy about what I have NOW. This is a radical change of mindset for me. It seems like my entire life has been one of looking toward tomorrow, of preparing for something in the future....possibly a remnant of my old Christian mindset where the eyes are always set on some sort of afterlife. I've come to grips with the fact that I'll never be rich and famous. This too sounds odd too, I know. A Taoist seeking riches and fame? But this is my dichotomy. There is a pianist inside me wanting to be known and clapped at. There is a brilliant orator inside me wanting to be heard. There is a great thinker inside me wanting to be understood. There is an author inside me wanting to be read. All of these things involve the participation of another, the need for appreciation and acknowledgment by another human being. Is this merely people pleasing? Is this merely verification that I am as good as the rest of you? In my case, probably yes.

 

Am I not sufficient as I am? What an incredible leap of faith it is to stop trying to control our destiny, when in fact the destiny is already there for us. Yes, I believe it is the time for me to become that leaf in the ocean, a leaf totally at the mercy of the tides and currents. Contained within the tides and currents are that which I need. Those lessons my soul needs to file down my emotional buttons (which I give people power to push on any given day, when I'm not consciously In The Tao. But the fear of surrendering to the current? It's tremendous. It's giving over control. It's allowing life to happen to us.

 

I have a mental image I love. It's Snoopy, sitting on top of his doghouse, his ears flapping in the wind. A big toothy smile on his face. He is letting life come at him and loving every last drop of it. I want to be more like Snoopy and less like the arrogant uptight tightly-wound judgmental jerk I can become at the drop of a hat. But I also know how it feels to surrender everything to the life force, particularly when things are tense. The feeling of the blood returning to your veins, the breathing deepening, the muscles unclenching, the wisdom and knowing that All is One returned. Peace again.

 

I seem to have something inside me which takes my own discomfort out on the little people in my life. When I speak of little people I'm not talking of a status - rather, I'm speaking of those people on the periphery of our life who serve us; the baggers in a grocery store, the clerks in a department store. Because those poor people are paid to stand there and be polite to everyone, I find that something in me loves to jump up and take advantage of that. If I'm in a lousy mood, the grocery checkers will get the brunt of it every time. I can be rude, arrogant....if I don't watch out for it. Sometimes it takes me off-guard and then I'll think about it later and realize how I could have done or said something so much kinder. But to be in the mindset of the Tao, this entire field of activity is transcended. When we feel the loving connection between each and every human and animal, there is no room for short-temperedness. It's not a factor.

 

I'm just about at the point now, getting back to the leaf in the ocean, where I'm of the opinion that everything that happens to me during the day is my 'destiny'. My husband and I find ourselves trying to make ourselves more available to people we come across during the day - whether at a coffee shop or just running errands. I have read sufficiently and enough times that the spirit of Tao works through us. Just our presence alone, in consciousness with the Tao, works wonders that we don't see. Energies mix with other auras, energies are elevated. Rooms of people will elevate in spirit because consciousness of the Tao is mixed in with everything.

 

Of course, having the luxury of allowing the Tao to dictate your day is only possible for someone who doesn't have to spend their time earning a living. My husband and I are fortunate in that we are both retired; to stay in the mindset of Oneness is a lot more difficult if one, say, is putting on a criminal trial. I guess there's a time and place for everything; no doubt there's a time and place in all of our lives for periods of retreat, study, contemplation. I treasure this period of time where I don't have to earn a living; I wish the same for everyone here.

[strawdog65]

I rather like your question about whether a person who naturally walks within the flow of nature's laws is more of a Taoist than one who studies the TTC. I believe, yes. Even the Tao has structure when it is communicated (a nearly impossible task); yet a young baby who has no structure is certainly more of a Taoist than those of us who have tried to attain.

 

I made a decision recently; it sounds strange and a bit retarded coming from someone in their mid-60's, I know....but I recently decided to Love Everything I Have. This includes my house, my husband, my dogs, my current situation in life. I decided to stop striving for more. To stop worrying about exactly where in the country I want to live....where would be the very best situation for us....and to just be happy about what I have NOW. This is a radical change of mindset for me. It seems like my entire life has been one of looking toward tomorrow, of preparing for something in the future....possibly a remnant of my old Christian mindset where the eyes are always set on some sort of afterlife. I've come to grips with the fact that I'll never be rich and famous. This too sounds odd too, I know. A Taoist seeking riches and fame? But this is my dichotomy. There is a pianist inside me wanting to be known and clapped at. There is a brilliant orator inside me wanting to be heard. There is a great thinker inside me wanting to be understood. There is an author inside me wanting to be read. All of these things involve the participation of another, the need for appreciation and acknowledgment by another human being. Is this merely people pleasing? Is this merely verification that I am as good as the rest of you? In my case, probably yes.

 

Am I not sufficient as I am? What an incredible leap of faith it is to stop trying to control our destiny, when in fact the destiny is already there for us. Yes, I believe it is the time for me to become that leaf in the ocean, a leaf totally at the mercy of the tides and currents. Contained within the tides and currents are that which I need. Those lessons my soul needs to file down my emotional buttons (which I give people power to push on any given day, when I'm not consciously In The Tao. But the fear of surrendering to the current? It's tremendous. It's giving over control. It's allowing life to happen to us.

 

I have a mental image I love. It's Snoopy, sitting on top of his doghouse, his ears flapping in the wind. A big toothy smile on his face. He is letting life come at him and loving every last drop of it. I want to be more like Snoopy and less like the arrogant uptight tightly-wound judgmental jerk I can become at the drop of a hat. But I also know how it feels to surrender everything to the life force, particularly when things are tense. The feeling of the blood returning to your veins, the breathing deepening, the muscles unclenching, the wisdom and knowing that All is One returned. Peace again.

 

I seem to have something inside me which takes my own discomfort out on the little people in my life. When I speak of little people I'm not talking of a status - rather, I'm speaking of those people on the periphery of our life who serve us; the baggers in a grocery store, the clerks in a department store. Because those poor people are paid to stand there and be polite to everyone, I find that something in me loves to jump up and take advantage of that. If I'm in a lousy mood, the grocery checkers will get the brunt of it every time. I can be rude, arrogant....if I don't watch out for it. Sometimes it takes me off-guard and then I'll think about it later and realize how I could have done or said something so much kinder. But to be in the mindset of the Tao, this entire field of activity is transcended. When we feel the loving connection between each and every human and animal, there is no room for short-temperedness. It's not a factor.

 

I'm just about at the point now, getting back to the leaf in the ocean, where I'm of the opinion that everything that happens to me during the day is my 'destiny'. My husband and I find ourselves trying to make ourselves more available to people we come across during the day - whether at a coffee shop or just running errands. I have read sufficiently and enough times that the spirit of Tao works through us. Just our presence alone, in consciousness with the Tao, works wonders that we don't see. Energies mix with other auras, energies are elevated. Rooms of people will elevate in spirit because consciousness of the Tao is mixed in with everything.

 

Of course, having the luxury of allowing the Tao to dictate your day is only possible for someone who doesn't have to spend their time earning a living. My husband and I are fortunate in that we are both retired; to stay in the mindset of Oneness is a lot more difficult if one, say, is putting on a criminal trial. I guess there's a time and place for everything; no doubt there's a time and place in all of our lives for periods of retreat, study, contemplation. I treasure this period of time where I don't have to earn a living; I wish the same for everyone here.

 

 

Good morning manitou!

 

Thank you for your greatly introspective words and feelings.

I too am at the place in my life where I am finally seeing the truth in

accepting what I have in my life, and stopping the endless cycle of

needless desires. There are necessities and then there are the needless

desires of things you tell yourself you must have to be happy.

 

Being and feeling that contentment of accepting what you have in

your life right NOW, to me has been very liberating.

 

Stopping yourself from these desires, is very freeing. It has allowed me to

really find myself in the moment, and live that moment to moment life where

I am appreciative of the smallest things, and feel little hurry in dealing with

people and problems that would have made me want to run before.

The slowing down and putting yourself there in the now,

is like giving yourself permission to be kinder, gentler, and take time to

really "see" the people all around us, the periphery people especially.

When we push and hurry we communicate to others that they are not worth our

time because we are more important then they are.

 

We limit ourselves from taking the moment to connect with really seeing that person

and feeling any compassion or empathy towards them. We do this to ourselves.

Slowing down the moments, knowing it is ok to show others we are "interested",

creates a flowing of positive action and reaction within us and our lives.

I have felt such a difference in my life because I have made this shift in my own

perceived importance and sense that I am always hurrying to do what? My work will

be done, and I am far from important, so why should I not make time to listen, to let

others know "I really see" them? Think of it as an everyday type of continual "validation"

as we go thru our day. We are saying, yes, I see you, and you are valued.

 

I work a 5 day a week full time retail job, and I can say it is possible to instill

these concepts and ideas all through ones day. Actually they are essential to me now,

because they have allowed me to leave my feelings of contempt for the workplace

behind me, and in their place I now see calmness and acceptance. The change in

perspective has changed my life. If I am feeling unhappy, I begin to think to myself,

"what is it that I think I should have in this moment?" and "Why do I feel like I desire this?'

Which brings me to the understanding that this moment is just as I am experiencing it...

and nothing more than that. And it is my "desire" for this moment to be something else

that has generated this feeling of unhappiness.

 

If I am fully experiencing this moment, why would I be wanting anything other than what

is right here before me? This happening, this moment is it's own own completeness,

as is the next, and the next.

Being in the moment is not to question what's transpiring, is not to point and say I want

something else. But it is to be so fully into what is happening, that you are conscious of

nothing else. When that happens, you are flowing with whatever, and whomever you are

with, content because for you time has stopped, and all there is in the universe is right

there in front of you, that happening, that moment, nothing else.

You become that moment.

 

I hope I am making some sense. I just know it to be true from what I have experienced.

I've been told this is like a state of deep meditation, but I am talking about this taking

place while you go about your day, and at work. It is not continuous for the whole day,

but there are hours at a time where it is so.

 

Peace!

[manitou]

I think I see Snoopy in your yard, Strawdog - he's sitting on his doghouse, ears flapping.

 

Dog, I feel like I live in the same pod that you do. Just today when I walked in to a store to buy a jacket, it occurred to me that assuming there were 30 people in the store, I was 1/30 of the whole. Yes, it is possible to do anything in the mindset. Even if one is putting on a criminal trial. I wish I had this mindset back when I was actually doing things like that. But of course there's a time and season for everything.

[strawdog65]

I think I see Snoopy in your yard, Strawdog - he's sitting on his doghouse, ears flapping.

 

Dog, I feel like I live in the same pod that you do. Just today when I walked in to a store to buy a jacket, it occurred to me that assuming there were 30 people in the store, I was 1/30 of the whole. Yes, it is possible to do anything in the mindset. Even if one is putting on a criminal trial. I wish I had this mindset back when I was actually doing things like that. But of course there's a time and season for everything.

 

 

Thanks Manitou ...I'm happy that you feel it

in the simple surroundings of our lives. What's

palpable in our everyday, is the difference we

make just by our change in perspective.

 

Hey If Snoopy is in my back yard....

does that make me Charlie Brown?

 

I don't even own a yellow shirt!

 

LoL

 

Peace To You!

[suninmyeyes]

[quote name='strawdog65' date='17 December 2010 - 10:58 AM' timestamp='1292612334' post='2305

 

"...I am not at all suggesting that we should live our lives like a happless leaf floating

wherever the current takes, without any goal or meaning other than that.

I am suggesting that rather than constantly struggling and fighting to have our

lives conform to our desires, we should practice flowing with our life's natural

direction, more so than trying to force it's direction. This means letting life have a

more natural flow, and letting our actions take part in being a positive influence in

the creative force behind that flow.

 

Flowing with things as they happen, and accepting what comes

into our life with the realization that many things come into our

lives by our past actions, and they will effect the future flow

of our life. Making changes, accepting mistakes .."

 

 

Hello Strawdog,

Flowing with life..

In retrospect if I was flowing with my life still and havent done some very strenous going against the stream,Sun would be a different person alltogether.

There have been major changes in character and understandings of life a total upsidedown turnover,just becouse of not accepting the flow and questioning of everything.

The idea of acceptance and not resisting totally makes sense .But where I am at -I make my life happen and will try and redirect the flow if not suitable to make my life beutiful.

Than again I am not taoist..

Just giving another point of view .

edit:typinng

Edited December 19, 2010 by suninmyeyes

[Gerard]

Hello everyone!

 

Some thoughts...

 

This is where the problem starts when you try to understand YOUR TAO.

[Everything]

Hello everyone!

 

Some thoughts, some...

 

 

...Tao in our everyday lives.

 

 

Peace!

 

Hey there. I see you have discovered how present mindedness removes most of the suffering in your life. You must not stop here and be content with just a present mindedness. Without the wisdom and intellect you're still prone to suffer alot in the present moment, like most people do.

 

Now that you're in the living, right here in the present, you have the freedom to make any decision you want and to redirect your energy in anyway you wish. How can we possibly suffer? We become like our soul in the present.

 

Marblehead already did most of the speech there for me, so thanks for that. By having an immature boundary functions within our life, or not being able to see what we do and do not controll we can still suffer. Not knowing detail about our preferences, having a fague identity. A mature christian ones told me: "God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference." If you do not know this, you are prone to suffer by spending alot of energy on the uncontrollable. But, you can also suffer in ways by not spending any energy on things you can controll. This is called passivity, and alot of people who enjoy the Tao move towards this direction, because they take the desirelessness too literally.

We suffer by making the wrong decisions. Especially passiveness and destructiveness are the biggest form of suffering in the present. Manitou also shared some wonderful words on how she was prone to be destructive out of bad habbits when not being present minded. Desireless implies that you do not base your actions on desire/emotion, but rather see this desire or emotion as an indication of your needs, and the way flows beyond the gate of experience. So you must have a commitment to a higher thing then yourself and your worldly experiences. A believe. Wether this higher thing is wrong/good you will learn only after you have completed the action. If you keep learning, you will eventually follow a path wherein you have eternal bliss, and die a fullfilled life. This is the goal for everyone. To start walking on a path that does not change, only moves forward, flows eternally and easily with little effort. It is hard to find the Tao in this way, infact it is impossible, but that is a good thing. This means we can spent on entire lives trying to move more towards the Tao, even if you're 99% there you can still move more towards it.

How do we even start to find this path? Well alot of people go about living, thinking it is too late, no point. While instead, you are already living in the present and don't suffer in such a way. The next step is to know what you love most, and move towards it in little patient and disciplined steps, trough having a higher commitment and desireless actions. This is just the beginning of Tao, the initiation. The rest that follows will guide you more and more towards the Way by filled you with resources to use your soul in the present moment and spent your energies constructively.

[Marblehead]

Hey there. I see you have discovered how present mindedness removes most of the suffering in your life. You must not stop here and be content with just a present mindedness. Without the wisdom and intellect you're still prone to suffer alot in the present moment, like most people do.

 

...

 

 

Hi Everything,

 

Nice post. I am glad you mentioned "suffering" because that is a subject I rarely speak to.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

It's all Tao, and everyone's a Taoist.. awareness of it is the issue.. if we care to notice, humans are indeed different in the reasoning capacity and creative uses of their physical bodies.. affording Tao it's dues, there must be a symbiotic function of these differences.. as in the human 'issues' you lament are no less Tao than the human issues you embrace..

 

Marblehead's rendition of the Serenity Prayer, is an excellent awareness.. as is the wisdoms of the Desiderata.. Life 'is', and so are we, so.. Live it with unconditional sincerity and gusto, and appreciate the quiet and still moments..

 

Be well..