Belief and Faith

[goldisheavy]

Hello Goldisheavy,

 

With your last exchange, our exchange is over. My entire response has been in response to what you've said, you fail to recognize it as such, that's on you and not me. I don't need to carry on a conversation with someone who can't remain civil. Deal with your anger and come back to me, then we can continue to talk. As a word of advice, anger eats you up and prevents you from seeing the truth, even when it's staring you in the face. Until you are able to see things objectively, you'll never be prepared to receive the truth if you do happen upon it.

 

Aaron

 

So we have a cowardly and an angry man here, right? OK then. When you wise up, I'll be here waiting for you. We'll chat once you develop some tolerance, the fragile and easily insulted one.

[Aaron]

Hello Goldisheavy,

 

I've added you to my ignore list. Have a good life and I really do hope as you grow older you can come to terms with whatever has made you so bitter.

 

Aaron

 

edit- I've taken you off my ignore list in the spirit of freedom of expression (just remember having the freedom to do something doesn't necessarily mean you should do it without practicing common sense.)

Edited December 21, 2010 by Twinner

[goldisheavy]

Hello Goldisheavy,

 

I've added you to my ignore list. Have a good life and I really do hope as you grow older you can come to terms with whatever has made you so bitter.

 

Aaron

 

All kind thoughts are appreciated. I am not going to add you to my ignore list, since I don't find you bad enough to ignore. In fact, my ignore list is empty and will remain empty, since I prefer an unfiltered and honest view of reality.

[Marblehead]

It seems to me that our reliance in beliefs and faith is waning here slightly.

 

I have a comment to make here and everyone can ignore me if the choose to do so.

 

Actually, I see no need for either beliefs or faith. That is, if one is totally aware.

 

If we are aware, and I speak primarily to the Manifest realm, if we understand the Way of Tao, what more do we need in order to live a full life?

 

Tao does not do things. Tao just is. It is Te that is the action (processes) of Tao. Now, I must point out here that when the word "Te" is translated it is most often translated to "Virtue". I must also point out that there is a difference between the Virtue of Tao and the virtue of man.

 

And yes, we must live in accord with the virtue of man most of the time else society will take revenge upon us. But I think it is important that we live in accord with the Virtue of Tao, that is, in accord with the processes of nature.

 

So perhaps we could say that we live in accord with the virtues of man in order to preserve our body and we live in accord with the Virtues of Tao in order to preserve our soul.

 

I think that if we can manage this we will have no need for beliefs and faith but we will be able to live spontaneously and I think that this is a much better way to live whenever we can allow for it. A naturel flow of living.

 

That's all I have to say at the moment. Well, except for: I wish all members here would stop ignoring each other. Everyone has the right to be heard. But no, we don't have to respond.

[manitou]

The truth will always be outside the capacity of words and ideas.

[manitou]

It seems like at some point either belief or faith turn into a Knowing that is no longer questioned by the soul.

[Birch]

This belief thing. I think it's a good idea to get rid of it and then see what happens.

The faith thing. I think it's a good idea to get rid of it and then see what happens.

 

I don't know just how much I'm operating under beliefs right now. I'd wager, quite a lot. I resume faith as "feeling alright in the face of everything". But at some point, no-one needs (or should) need faith.

[Marblehead]

This belief thing. I think it's a good idea to get rid of it and then see what happens.

The faith thing. I think it's a good idea to get rid of it and then see what happens.

 

I don't know just how much I'm operating under beliefs right now. I'd wager, quite a lot. I resume faith as "feeling alright in the face of everything". But at some point, no-one needs (or should) need faith.

 

Every now and then you say something that I totally agree with. This is one of them.

[goldisheavy]

I think faith is just a very deep instinctive belief. For example, I have faith in the gravity. It means I believe in the gravity so much that I don't even contemplate its absence. I don't think about it. I just walk around as if gravity is true and it is. So I don't distinguish faith from belief in a big way because I think beliefs come in various strengths and depths and strong deep beliefs can be called faith.

 

I also equate faith with optimism. To give a basic example, when I return from a walk, I like to pull the door to the building. The door is supposed to always be locked so I should have no reason to even check, right? Well, I decided that there must be times when it only looks locked when in fact it isn't. Why did I decide that? I had no obvious reason for thinking that way. I can say "I had faith that the door would sometimes be unlocked." So I started pulling on the door and what do you know? Indeed! It would sometimes be unlocked when it looked perfectly locked. I still like to do this sometimes and I even surprised my wife once by opening an apparently locked door. Of course in my mind the door is not locked. It only looks locked. I am no magician and if the door is actually locked, I can't open it.

 

I think neither beliefs nor faith are inherently evil, but like fire, they can be in a runaway mode that makes life hard. If we believe in bad things and if we have faith in negative things, life becomes hell. That's why it's good to re-examine one's faith and beliefs, especially if life is hard or hell. If life is good, it may still be good to re-examine beliefs, but there is less obvious reason to do so. If one has a penchant for wisdom, then re-examining beliefs is just an enjoyable hobby that one can do for no apparent reason. It's just an enjoyable process where you can see how you don't have to believe what you currently believe.

 

Beliefs cannot be gotten rid of. If you somehow think you got rid of your beliefs, it just means you believe you have no beliefs. Or perhaps, it means you have faith you have no beliefs. Beliefs are always there, friends. All we can do is make sure they're helpful, or at least, not harmful. We have some say over the content of our beliefs, but not whether or not we believe. That's how I see it.

[Apech]

I think faith is just a very deep instinctive belief. For example, I have faith in the gravity. It means I believe in the gravity so much that I don't even contemplate its absence. I don't think about it. I just walk around as if gravity is true and it is. So I don't distinguish faith from belief in a big way because I think beliefs come in various strengths and depths and strong deep beliefs can be called faith.

 

...

 

 

Surely any 'belief' gravity is reinforced by the empirical experience of falling over or dropping things. Is that still a belief?

[suninmyeyes]

..

I think faith is just a very deep instinctive belief. For example, I have faith in the gravity. It means I believe in the gravity so much that I don't even contemplate its absence. I don't think about it. I just walk around as if gravity is true and it is. So I don't distinguish faith from belief in a big way because I think beliefs come in various strengths and depths and strong deep beliefs can be called faith.

..

I was thinking along these lines too.Going to doctor is putting faith in her/him,mostly people dont check their doctors qualifications,and expect to be prescribed right medication.Or taking a ride on a bus,again putting faith that the busdriver will go the route that he is meant to be going.etc..

So faith comes smoothly ,it makes sense naturally.

But forced faith ,"artfically"manifactured/imagined faith is not really faith for me.

Beliefs keep me together and make me Suninmyeyes .And can be a good reference point so that I can lead daily life .

One can change them and weed them out or plant new ones according to their liking.Or put them on hold when deeply relaxing.

I am not sure that a person would exist in a physical realm any longer if ALL of the belives were discarded for a prolonged period of time.

Edited December 20, 2010 by suninmyeyes

[Otis]

Great discussion and contributions, everyone!

 

My distinction between the two:

 

Belief is always a conceptual thing, a crystallization of an idea/thought into a fixed perspective, a node of "assumed reality". Belief comes with an "is" attached.

 

The purpose of belief is not to make the world larger, but to make it smaller, more manageable, less scary. If I believe that "America is always right", then I have pushed away all the possible beliefs that might contradict with that.

 

Faith, however, has room to extend beyond the conceptual, into the mystery. It is merely the lack of doubt. The above example about gravity is apropos, because we don't have to have any beliefs about gravity, whatsoever, in order to be calmly without doubt about it.

 

Faith often coagulates into belief, which is how mysticism turns into religion. I had an amazing experience of the sublime! Unfortunately, now I'm going to claim that the sublime was named "God", and that I now know the nature of God, based upon my experience.

 

I do think that what Taoism recommends is surrendering belief, but living in Faith. Let go of the "is" and of the "I know" and instead live fully (without doubt) in the mystery.

 

This is a very scary place to live in, especially at first, because the beliefs that I've accumulated in my life had at least helped manage my interaction with reality. They've been my training wheels. How can I not be clumsy, at least at first, when I move into the unknown? But if I'm not willing to surrender the training wheels, I will never learn balance, never learn to ride the bike.

 

My personal position is: have as few beliefs as possible, and make sure that the beliefs that I do hold on to, make as much sense as possible. And all my practice is toward living in Faith (i.e. without doubt).