The Highest Buddhist Consort Practice

[goldisheavy]

"Just like in Shaiva tantra where such imagery originated, the yoni and lingam have deeper symbolic meanings." Exactly, I agree. This is no different in my opinion.

 

For clarity sake, I was talking about the mystical deeper meanings. So on one level he is accurate but there is so much more. But alwayson doesn't strike me as a subtle kind of guy. Maybe he has more to show us.

 

s

 

You're confused about what's shallow and what's deep. It's like you're looking at things in an upside down manner. And then you try to derail this discussion by telling people to privately message Vajrasattva. Why can't Vajrasattva join in and participate like everyone else? Why must people go off into dark corners to talk privately about it with some dude in Florida called "Santiago" who is a Muslim, but who is an expert on Buddhist Tantra. Yea right. There is a lot of bullshit tied up in there on many levels.

[goldisheavy]

Thanks for your input, but I don't think that's an accurate interpretation. Tantric sex, as I'm sure you know, has the purpose of uniting the solar and lunar energies, and this is more often achieved in Vajrayana through trul khor (yantra yoga), but I don't deny that karmamudra is practiced in Vajrayana. But even in that context, the yab-yum image on a deeper level symbolizes the play of emptiness and energy. It's not just penis and vagina. Just like in Shaiva tantra where such imagery originated, the yoni and lingam have deeper symbolic meanings.

 

The mantra om mani padme hum is the mantra of compassion and is a prayer for the potentiality of enlightenment to awaken in all beings. To say that it means penis in vagina is a gross oversimplification and actually does harm to the tradition because those with wrong understands will form the opinion that the essence of the mantra and Tibetan Buddhism is to stick a penis into a vagina.

 

Well said!

[Sunya]

Hm, not that I disagree much with the sentiment (although I haven't observed what you say among Tibetan Buddhists online) but I think that according to some (or all Sarma schools?) it's not possible to achieve Buddhahod in ones lifetime without consort practice...

 

Yep, that's the view of some but not all. Especially since most lineages including Sarma schools utilize Dzogchen, which does not see karmamudra as necessary. It is seen as necessary in Mahamudra lineages that are steeped in tantric dogma, but not in those that have the view of Essence Mahamudra. The tantric view in some schools is that you can only attain Buddhahood at moment of death or through a consort. Gampopa, disciple of Milarepa, attained Buddhahood without a consort and without dying. He did this through the path of Essence Mahamudra. Those lineages that do say that it's necessary rely on older views found in the tantras alwayson mentioned. They haven't realized the profoundity of Ati Yoga or Essence Mahamudra.

Edited December 19, 2010 by Sunya

[RongzomFan]

Yep, that's the view of some but not all. Especially since most lineages including Sarma schools utilize Dzogchen, which does not see karmamudra as necessary. It is seen as necessary in Mahamudra lineages that are steeped in tantric dogma, but not in those that have the view of Essence Mahamudra. The tantric view in some schools is that you can only attain Buddhahood at moment of death or through a consort. Gampopa, disciple of Milarepa, attained Buddhahood without a consort and without dying. He did this through the path of Essence Mahamudra. Those lineages that do say that it's necessary rely on older views found in the tantras alwayson mentioned. They haven't realized the profoundity of Ati Yoga or Essence Mahamudra.

 

 

Yes of course.

 

Even I don't believe in karmamudra or tummo.

 

But the primary tantras that form the basis of Vajrayana are all sexual. Vajrayana is based in sexuality. Thats just the way it is. Even the Four Empowerments are symbolic versions of sex acts that monks are not allowed to perform.

[Pero]

Yep, that's the view of some but not all. Especially since most lineages including Sarma schools utilize Dzogchen, which does not see karmamudra as necessary. It is seen as necessary in Mahamudra lineages that are steeped in tantric dogma, but not in those that have the view of Essence Mahamudra. The tantric view in some schools is that you can only attain Buddhahood at moment of death or through a consort. Gampopa, disciple of Milarepa, attained Buddhahood without a consort and without dying. He did this through the path of Essence Mahamudra. Those lineages that do say that it's necessary rely on older views found in the tantras alwayson mentioned. They haven't realized the profoundity of Ati Yoga or Essence Mahamudra.

 

Do you have a link to an article or is there some book where I could read a bit about this? Because I'm not really sure about what you're saying about Essence Mahamudra.

 

You seem to have a negative opinion about consort practice?

[Pero]

Even the Four Empowerments are symbolic versions of sex acts that monks are not allowed to perform.

 

Can you elaborate?

[goldisheavy]

Even I don't believe in karmamudra or tummo.

 

What is your goal? Why are you here?

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Yes of course.

 

Even I don't believe in karmamudra or tummo.

 

 

 

But Mahasiddhas like Milarepa utilized tummo in their practice, and I don't find evidence of tantric sexual practice in his life.. You seem sure of your interpretations, but I am not at all sure you know what you're talking about. Can you provide some references for the things you are claiming?

Edited December 20, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[RongzomFan]

But Mahasiddhas like Milarepa utilized tummo in their practice, and I don't find evidence of sexual practice in his life.. You seem sure of your interpretations, but I am not at all sure you know what you're talking about. Can you provide some references for the things you are claiming?

 

 

????

[NeiChuan]

I don't think that's very high level if I found out on my own.

 

Vase breathing + Sex + variable = Jing retention.

 

 

Maybe becouse it sounds like a work out manual?

One ,two stick it in and ouuuuuuut,in and ouuuuut.

 

Haha

[三江源]

Thanks for your input, but I don't think that's an accurate interpretation. Tantric sex, as I'm sure you know, has the purpose of uniting the solar and lunar energies, and this is more often achieved in Vajrayana through trul khor (yantra yoga), but I don't deny that karmamudra is practiced in Vajrayana. But even in that context, the yab-yum image on a deeper level symbolizes the play of emptiness and energy. It's not just penis and vagina. Just like in Shaiva tantra where such imagery originated, the yoni and lingam have deeper symbolic meanings.

 

The mantra om mani padme hum is the mantra of compassion and is a prayer for the potentiality of enlightenment to awaken in all beings. To say that it means penis in vagina is a gross oversimplification and actually does harm to the tradition because those with wrong understands will form the opinion that the essence of the mantra and Tibetan Buddhism is to stick a penis into a vagina.

 

Gross oversimplification is right. Through tantric sexual practice the practitioner comes to experience energy and emptiness, in a deep sense through the physical body, subtle bodies and psyche. The deepest meanings, echoes within nature and the way of things, the energy of a 'penis' and the deepest space that a 'vagina' can open into, flower forth. The penis therefore need never be 'only' a penis and at the same time it is revered and worshipped as such, as what it physically is and what it energetically and spiritually is, and as part of the alchemy of churning awareness in to being. And the same for the yoni.

 

The deeper symbolic meanings are within the consort practice, they unfold from the practice.

 

Through consort practice the compassion for all beings naturally arises, also, as the heart opens, fills and overflows.

 

So 'penis and vagina' together give you the ingredients for all the deepest meanings you could find, a direct experience of the creation energy.

[Pero]

But Mahasiddhas like Milarepa utilized tummo in their practice, and I don't find evidence of tantric sexual practice in his life.. You seem sure of your interpretations, but I am not at all sure you know what you're talking about. Can you provide some references for the things you are claiming?

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/21064975/Milarepa-Karmamudra

[ShaktiMama]

You're confused about what's shallow and what's deep. It's like you're looking at things in an upside down manner. And then you try to derail this discussion by telling people to privately message Vajrasattva. Why can't Vajrasattva join in and participate like everyone else? Why must people go off into dark corners to talk privately about it with some dude in Florida called "Santiago" who is a Muslim, but who is an expert on Buddhist Tantra. Yea right. There is a lot of bullshit tied up in there on many levels.

 

was this really necessary?

 

s

[ShaktiMama]

Gross oversimplification is right. Through tantric sexual practice the practitioner comes to experience energy and emptiness, in a deep sense through the physical body, subtle bodies and psyche. The deepest meanings, echoes within nature and the way of things, the energy of a 'penis' and the deepest space that a 'vagina' can open into, flower forth. The penis therefore need never be 'only' a penis and at the same time it is revered and worshipped as such, as what it physically is and what it energetically and spiritually is, and as part of the alchemy of churning awareness in to being. And the same for the yoni.

 

The deeper symbolic meanings are within the consort practice, they unfold from the practice.

 

Through consort practice the compassion for all beings naturally arises, also, as the heart opens, fills and overflows.

 

So 'penis and vagina' together give you the ingredients for all the deepest meanings you could find, a direct experience of the creation energy.

 

 

well said, thanks.

s

[goldisheavy]

was this really necessary?

 

s

 

I suppose I could have ignored what you were trying to do, but I decided not to. Let's not try to channel people away from the light into dark private confined corner$.

[ShaktiMama]

I suppose I could have ignored what you were trying to do, but I decided not to. Let's not try to channel people away from the light into dark private confined corner$.

 

 

you certainly presume to know and have judged my motives.

 

s

[goldisheavy]

you certainly presume to know and have judged my motives.

 

s

 

I am not terribly interested in what exactly motivates you to try to get people to move off this open discussion and into a private one with Santiago.

[phore]

incorporating breathing methods in tantric sex is a pretty legit practice in my opinion.

I think that when mastered dual cultivation is much more effective than single cultivation.

Enlightenment comes more freely to those who work in harmony with others.

peace and love

[Starjumper]

Hey did you guys ever settle on what Tummo is? I got tired of reading after the first 2/3 page. I don't know much about it except it generates heat and can be used to generate a lot of heat. I can get a real hot belly if I want just by focusing on it while breathing slowly, and other places too, and I have made the heat flow in a huge current inside me, and I can project heat from my hands, but I don't know tummo, but I assume that stuff is part of tummo or the result of tummo, right?.

 

I did glance at one gem of a post though, where someone said they didn't "believe" in it. ROFL

 

Edit: Oh yeah, tummo + consorts, could be fun!

 

It's just all part of Taoist tantric sex isn't it? I thought I would bring the word Taoism into the mix just for tricks.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Starjumper7

[ShaktiMama]

I am not terribly interested in what exactly motivates you to try to get people to move off this open discussion and into a private one with Santiago.

 

no, you are not but you seem to be terribly interested and motivated in attributing dark, financial, and selfish desires to everything he and I say and do.

 

Santi and his family are still in deep mourning over the death of their 14 year old son in October. This will be the first Christmas without him. Santi is pretty much attending to his family and their needs now and doesn't have much interest in a lot of other things other than remaining strong and healthy for them. But he still answers people's questions...for free...if they want to know.

 

So wish him good will and peace for his family instead rather than hurtful thoughts.

 

s

[Vajrahridaya]

no, you are not but you seem to be terribly interested and motivated in attributing dark, financial, and selfish desires to everything he and I say and do.

 

Santi and his family are still in deep mourning over the death of their 14 year old son in October. This will be the first Christmas without him. Santi is pretty much attending to his family and their needs now and doesn't have much interest in a lot of other things other than remaining strong and healthy for them. But he still answers people's questions...for free...if they want to know.

 

So wish him good will and peace for his family instead rather than hurtful thoughts.

 

s

 

Doing so right now! What a unique opportunity for deep transformation! I hope it all goes towards wisdom... for everyone involved.

[phore]

no, you are not but you seem to be terribly interested and motivated in attributing dark, financial, and selfish desires to everything he and I say and do.

 

Santi and his family are still in deep mourning over the death of their 14 year old son in October. This will be the first Christmas without him. Santi is pretty much attending to his family and their needs now and doesn't have much interest in a lot of other things other than remaining strong and healthy for them. But he still answers people's questions...for free...if they want to know.

 

So wish him good will and peace for his family instead rather than hurtful thoughts.

 

s

My blessings to santi and his family.

 

Gold, why do you insist on insulting enlightened masters that grace the taobums with their wisdom and guidance.

Santiago and Susan have demonstrated a very high degree of psychic mastery both to myself and others.

And im only mentioning the people you have insulted in this particular thread.

You constantly pollute threads on taobums with your negative vibes toward everyone.

 

i have no interest in getting into one of your infamous flame wars, so im ignoring you. I would encourage shakti mama, vajrasattva and any other victim of your harrassment to do so as well.

 

peace and love

Edited December 21, 2010 by phore

[RongzomFan]

I have been trying to brush up on my tummo by reading Glenn Mullin's books. I still believe my description of tummo in the the starting post is accurate.

[phore]

I have been trying to brush up on my tummo by reading Glenn Mullin's books. I still believe my description of tummo in the the starting post is accurate.

when you practice your tummo does it heat you up. particularly in the lower abdomen? Thats the only real test for tummo.

[unmike]

a bunch of stuff

 

As a neutral, disinterested third party, I think goldisheavy is being criticized a bit unfairly (though I haven't read every single post of his in all other threads, admittedly). He is trying to convince people to have open discussion and perhaps further our understandings. Alwayson, I'm happy with this thread, but your gross oversimplification is, at best highly misleading, and you either know this or really ought to.

 

gTummo requires, from my readings, far more than what you say it calls for. There are a series of progressive visualizations, eventually culminating with imagining a shell of tiny, angry, red-faced demons becoming a literal suit of armor over your skin. Even so, without any guidance or training in the area, how can a gTummo layperson such as yourself hope to understand the subtle mechanisms at work? Of course you don't believe. You've no experience with it.