[TTC Study] Chapter 13 of the Tao Teh Ching

[Aaron]

[Marblehead]

This was a challenging chapter for me in the early days of my reading the TTC.

 

But then I was finally aboe to reconcile the chapter with the idea of the warrior sage who already considers himself dead thereby he can devote his entire energy to the service of others.

 

And this is not suggesting that we should not care for ourself. Quite the opposite, I think. But, we should not be bothered with honor and shame from others. We simply do what needs be done and move on.

 

I must point out that I do not like the word "surrender" used in the English/Feng translation. Way too many negative connotations in the phrase "surrender yourself".

 

And then we must remember that it is through the body that we do things so it is important to maintain our body but not to live only for the body.

[manitou]

 

But then I was finally aboe to reconcile the chapter with the idea of the warrior sage who already considers himself dead thereby he can devote his entire energy to the service of others.

 

 

I like this a lot, Marbles. That obviously came as a result of many years of simmering on the back burner....

 

I see this chapter in a straightforward way at a slightly different angle. The only way to get through to the center is to go through self. To Know Thyself. To understand all our own motives, our own fears, our own prejudices, all of it. Our mistakes. The times we forked people over.

 

To come to terms with deeper and deeper self-awarenesses is the very thing that creates humility of soul. After we've seen ourselves for what we really are, can we take the sometimes humiliating steps to change that which we now see needs to be changed. Whether in the present or the past.

 

What this chapter says is that we should Welcome the stripping down process - as it truly is the only way to get to the center. When it says to Prize Calamaties as our own Body, I think this is saying that in every calamaty is Opportunity....and every calamity may indeed involve another stripping down process where Ego is battered a bit more and more. We should receive calamities with open arms, apparently. Yeehaw.

 

The man who has attained the utmost in humility may be trusted with the world. He has no illusions of faux power left.

[Marblehead]

I like this a lot, Marbles. That obviously came as a result of many years of simmering on the back burner....

 

 

Yeah, there are a lot of years of my life mixed up in that.

 

I enjoyed your perspective of the chapter concepts as well.

[dawei]

It is a little surprising how different the opening two characters are treated:

 

寵-辱-若-驚

Chong-Ru-Ruo-Jing

Honor-Disgrace-Like-Startled

 

Wu: Welcome-Disgrace-as a-Pleasant Surprise (WB versions follow)

Feng/English: Accept-Disgrace-Willingly

Liao: Honor-and Disgrace-Are-Fearful

Ni: Favor-and Disgrace-are both causes-of Shock

Yutang: Favor-and Disgrace-cause one-Dismay

Hendricks: Regard Favor-and Disgrace-With-Alarm (MWD version)

Hendricks: Favor is really-Disgrace-it is like-being in bondage. (Guodian: Last character is different)

 

 

Here is Hendricks translating from the oldest Text, the Guodian which has differ characters in some lines:

 

1. "Favor" is really "disgrace"--it is like being in bondage.

2. Be wary with matters that cause great distress--treat them as if they could mean your life.

3. Why do I say "Favor is really disgrace"?

4. Receiving favor puts you in a dependent position.

5. If you get it, it is like being bondage;

6. If you lose it, it is like being in bondage.

7. This is what I mean by "Favor" is really "disgrace"--it is like being in bondage."

8. And why do I say "Be wary with matters that cause great distress--treat them as if they could mean your life."?

9. The reason we have great distress

10. Is that we have bodies;

11. If we did not have bodies, what would we worry about?

12. Therefore, with someone who values taking care of his life more than running the world,

13. To him we can entrust the world.

14. And with someone who dotes on his life as if were the whole world,

15. To him we can turn over the world.

 

Hendrick's note on opening:

1. To be favored is to be insulted/disgraced. To be favored brings obligation; one is 'bound' to this; 'dependent' on it (line 4).

3. Since line 4 only mentions 'favor', 1,3,4 focus on 'Favor is..."

 

And this is not suggesting that we should not care for ourself. Quite the opposite, I think. But, we should not be bothered with honor and shame from others. We simply do what needs be done and move on.

 

There is an interesting difference of opinion on the early daoist Yang Chu who is said to want to preserve his body at any cost. Chan says that Chu as a daoist is suspect because of his extreme views. Hendricks on the other hand, appeals to Chu and also quotes the Zhuang Zi for another example to support "that the person who should be entrusted with ruling the world is precisely the one who cares more for his own life than he does for the wealth, honor, and power he would have by ruling the world".

[Procurator]

Edited December 25, 2010 by TianShi

[dawei]

龍辱若驚

 

As the most important thing while receiving the dragon messenger is awe

I was surprised to find two sources support 'Long' as the first character since Hendricks has taken it from the start as the received text 'Chong' (even based on the Guodian bamboo). I looked at the bamboo slips for that chapter and honestly cannot argue against either one too; ergo, 'Long' seems as supported based on examples I see in oracle and bronze script.

 

If I were really go to that route, I might substitute a 'Long' archtype: Longevity, Luck, Prosperity, Totem Tribe of combined people, descend of the people, Imperial, Court. The last (Court) one may be most fitting since Imperial may be too early to apply and at least ties into the last lines.

 

The last character of the first line in the Guodian is different (thus it is repeated in a few lines):

龙辱若缨

 

http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Chinese_Uni-G_TTK.html#Kap13

 

how would you translate the Guodian?

 

 

Heading off to china for a month. Hope to check in to the continuing chapters...

[Procurator]

 

The last character of the first line in the Guodian is different (thus it is repeated in a few lines):

龙辱若缨

 

http://home.pages.at/onkellotus/TTK/Chinese_Uni-G_TTK.html#Kap13

 

how would you translate the Guodian?

 

 

Heading off to china for a month. Hope to check in to the continuing chapters...

 

纓 糸+17 缨 yīng to annoy, bother

 

well bother=worry=care so the paralell btwn 1st and 2nd sentence is even more pronounced

 

1.the arrival of the wan's messenger is worrisome for the servant and his departure leaves him with worry about carrying out the ordered duty

2. fulfilling "the Great Care" is worrisome for wan while alive and even if wan dies the worry is still there.

 

have a safe trip:)

[Marblehead]

Hi Guys,

 

Great additional comments. Regretfully, I have nothing new to add to the discussion.

 

I do like the concept of fearing (being beyond) 'favor and disgrace' because that is one of the points Chuang Tzu makes about the Taoist Sage.

 

And equally I like the concept of taking care of one's body and this brings to mind that we cannot expect respect from others if we do not respect ourself.

 

If the Ruler/Sage takes care of the state as well as he/she takes care of their body all things will likely be in order and the people of the state will live in peace.

 

Of course, this reminds me of Nietzsche's "beyond good and evil".

[strawdog65]

Another version.....

 

 

 

From: Tao Te Ching: on the art of harmony

 

Translation by: Chad hansen

 

13.

 

 

 

Favour is as disgraceful as a warning.

Value your calamities as part of your being.

Why say "favour is as disgraceful as a warning"?

Bestowing favour is treating you as lower.

Receiving favour is like a warning.

Losing it is like a warning.

 

This is why I say "favour is as disgraceful as a warning".

Why say "value your calamities as part of your being"?

What makes it possible for me to have calamities

Is treating myself as having a being;

Further, if I had no being,

What trouble could I have?

 

Hence in valuing: treat your being as the social world.

The social world may be delivered to one like that.

In caring: treat your being as the social world.

The social world can be entrusted to one like that.

[Marblehead]

Hi Strawdog,

 

Interesting translation.

 

This caught my attention: Bestowing favour is treating you as lower.

 

At its roots, I think that this is very true in many cases. Maybe all. Can't say.

[manitou]

Hi Strawdog,

 

Interesting translation.

 

This caught my attention: Bestowing favour is treating you as lower.

 

At its roots, I think that this is very true in many cases. Maybe all. Can't say.

 

 

I used to go down to Mexico a lot and our trailer there was not far from an orphanage. Carloads of used clothing would come down from California from well-intended groups who dumped this stuff off at the orphanage. It never felt quite right to me - actually, sort of arrogant. Especially since the stuff was always used, I guess. Yes, it did seem like in that case bestowing favour was definitely treating them as lower. I think the biggest payoff was not for the kids but for the people who appeased their social conscience by bagging up some old T-shirts and toys and sending them to the poor areas.