"Doing stuff", "not doing stuff"

[Sloppy Zhang]

All righty, so I've been pondering a few things recently, and I'd like to share.

 

I'm sure most of us are familiar with things like emptiness meditation, meditation following the breath, meditation focusing on the dantien, all while letting go of thoughts and things like that. And that's all well and good.

 

But at the same time, there are things which involve something being done. Take lucid dreaming for example. In order to lucid dream, you have to become lucid during a dream (bit of tautology for you ).

 

Yet if you go to bed and just decide to empty your mind, you may or may not become lucid (in my humble experience), yet even if you do go to bed thinking, "I am going to become lucid", you might not necessarily become so either (in my humble experience).

 

Same goes with energy work (the topic of which has, I know, been kicked around some)- if you just empty your mind and do some of the above practices, will energy circulate, or do you have to do a specific energy circulating practice to do any effect?

 

Yet if everything is one/empty/whatever, (and I think the above types of emptiness meditations are quite nice), and you practice emptiness meditation and your practices involve that, how (if at all), do you get stuff done/have stuff happen?

[Otis]

Good question. In my own life, that's one that I face quite a bit: how empty can I be, without grinding to a halt (or crashing into something)?

 

I think that's one of the reasons I love dance as a practice so much. All I have to do is get on the dance floor, and then my body takes care of the rest. I am practicing "not doing" in action. I learn to trust my body/whole self to do what it needs to do, without "my" interference (i.e. the interference of my ego).

 

I see the truth in "wu wei", and experience the effortlessness of "not doing". But I am also cognizant that I am not yet balanced enough to let go of all trying.

 

So I am choosing, for now, to see "wei wu wei" not as "doing without doing" but rather as a cycle: doing/not doing. "I" am involved as little as possible, try as little as possible, worry as little as possible, but I still make sure the bills get paid and dishes get done.

 

I am also aware of the need for me to be gentle, aware and caring, else I bruise others with my spontaneous "wu wei" confidence. Again, I think the need for that fades with time and practice, but for the time being, it keeps me out of trouble, and is a decent discipline for my mind and appetites.

[Mal]

how (if at all), do you get stuff done/have stuff happen?

 

"You" don't have to. The stuff will just happen spontaneously, no need for "you" to worry about it or do anything.

 

It's just like thinking, lets say you manage to still the mind for a moment. What do "you" "have" to do to be able to think your next thought?

Even from total stillness thoughts will spontaneously be created.

 

Same with action. If you do “non-doing” action will still arise, without effort from “you”. But if “you” wants to control, shape or chose the action that arises…. well that’s not really non-doing is it?

[Sloppy Zhang]

Otis- great thoughts, and nice example

 

"You" don't have to. The stuff will just happen spontaneously, no need for "you" to worry about it or do anything.

 

It's just like thinking, lets say you manage to still the mind for a moment. What do "you" "have" to do to be able to think your next thought? Nothing. Even from total stillness thoughts will spontaneously be created.

 

Now see that's a good way of looking at it, but in my humble opinion, that's only good if you're talking about theory.

 

Let's say that you want to have a lucid dream, for instance, and you trust it to happen spontaneously and then.... it doesn't! What then?

 

Let's take it a bit further, let's say you are practicing an IMA, let's say that you are giving into wu wei or however you want to phrase it, and you need to perform the right technique at the right time, trusting that it will spontaneously.... and then it doesn't?

 

You might argue that finding a way of doing something takes away from its spontaneity, so why bother trying to find a way to do it? But I do not agree with that viewpoint. You can do something consciously, but also be able to do it spontaneously.

 

So how do you, not only do something spontaneously, but have a way of finding out that you CAN do it should the circumstances arise in which you need to do it? And then, taking it further, subsequently practice so you know how it works, and know that it can work and in what ways in can work when you do so spontaneously?

Edited December 21, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Mal]

[Sloppy Zhang]

[Birch]

I think it depends on what you want done.

 

Some parts of "want done" involve you "doing stuff" and some parts of "want done" involve you "not doing stuff". I've (so far) found it easier to consider what I "want done" and then the doing or not doing stuff comes accordingly - except when I forget and attempt to do things that can't be done because:

 

- not up to me to do them

- no influence on them

- I suck at doing them and someone else does better

- what I think has to be done is in fact counter to what needs to happen

- I don't know what needs to be done

 

I think it's too hard to try and work out ALL of the contingencies, so I sort of look at what I want done and then, well, try not to get in its way too much. Still messing that one up, quite often, but less

[Otis]

I think it depends on what you want done.

 

Some parts of "want done" involve you "doing stuff" and some parts of "want done" involve you "not doing stuff". I've (so far) found it easier to consider what I "want done" and then the doing or not doing stuff comes accordingly - except when I forget and attempt to do things that can't be done because:

 

- not up to me to do them

- no influence on them

- I suck at doing them and someone else does better

- what I think has to be done is in fact counter to what needs to happen

- I don't know what needs to be done

 

I think it's too hard to try and work out ALL of the contingencies, so I sort of look at what I want done and then, well, try not to get in its way too much. Still messing that one up, quite often, but less

Great! Well said!

[Adam West]

Hey guys and gals,

 

I think the thing about emptiness is it is not a vacuous nothingness or nihilism. Rather it is a living dynamic awake-ness - the one living reality. The source of all energy, life, being, existence, activity and creation - not only the source thereof, but the fundamental nature of all these things - not two, but one. So to go deep into emptiness is to discovery a vibrancy and awake-ness - a living intensity of being - the creative force and essence of life itself. So in this sense emptiness / life is far from passive or inactive - it is both active and passive and neither simultaneously. To realise emptiness for a time is to be immersed in energy, power and creativity, while also a deep stillness and profound completeness and fulfillment. This is why some schools of thought suggest that no active energy practices are required - all the energy, power and activity of the entire universe is awakend in oneself when one touches and realises the essence of one's being - emptiness. Emptiness is inseparable from life, energy and activity - inseparable from awareness, cognizance, lucidity, phenomena and being - different dimensions of the one singular reality that is 'just this', here and now - to realise emptiness in meditation and later in everyday life is to see this for yourself. To see it yourself, simply go deeper in your practice. This is how you can judge if you have gone deep enough - that is the realisation - the direct experience.

 

All activity in this world - the drive to be creative, connect with others, share in the human experience, to give to know and be as we are, springs forth from this creative void that is both empty and profoundly full - both still and profoundly active - there is no dualistic dichotomies - only this, just this.

 

On a practical level of lucid dreaming and other meditative and spiritual / life practices - they all seem to awaken of their own accord assuming one goes deep enough into the very essence of life / being - they are all stages in the natural awakening to truth / being / presence / what is / Tao. Once one becomes increasingly lucid in meditation, one becomes lucid in life, and also in dreams. In a sense the 'doing' of the ego is a doing done by a misapprehension of self - when this confusion dissolves in the greater dimension of being that is our true nature all the outcomes that the little self was working towards with its 'doing' come about on their own - as they are of our natural state; however, before we could not see that, as our true nature was obscured by the confusions and 'doings' of this little self. Let go into being, into emptiness, into awareness and all will become apparent - a vast dimension of infinitude of Being will [be] discovered - its already there, we just need to make contact with it.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam. edited for grammar

Edited December 21, 2010 by Adam West

[Birch]

Hey Mr West,

 

Been a while!

 

One of those posts I enjoy and feels close to what I've experienced (so far).

 

It's always nice when someone abounds in one's "own" direction. Alway horrible when someone doesn't. Yet I suspect I ought to welcome them both and discard them both equally.

 

[Adam West]

Hi Kate!

 

It is nice to drop in now and then - see what you lovely people are up to. I've been off, as you say, doing my own thing, going my own way. As things slowly ripen - they spontaneously come alive in expression, and it is always nice to touch base with other practitioners on the path - of the way - to share and commune in the journey of awakening. It is like we go full circle - away from the bustling crowds and their chaotic disturbance and collective individual suffering, into ourselves, touch something deep and awakened, feel driven to reconnect and share with life and others in our collective sentience of life as the human experience, and together and on our own, dissolve into nothing and everything - finally realizing we have never traveled anywhere at all - just always this.

 

In celebration,

 

[z00se]

I think the 'doing' is just as important as the 'not doing' otherwise you are all yin and no yang and therefore not balanced. I think the main point is that you are not 'doing' too much so that all your 'doing' actions fight against each other and your putting in massive amounts of effort and energy but getting nowhere because all your actions are in different directions.

 

By stilling your mind and doing only very little you make effective use of your energy and acheive more. I find with myself the better i get at living the less energy i have to use. It's like my soul uses a remote control mechanism to control my body but depending on my level of meditative state, the levers of the remote control become easier and easier move, and they need to be moved in any direction less and less while having greater and greater effect.

 

Another thing i have found in my practice is not concentrating on details just concentrating on general results. Not "I want to become good at qigong so my body can heal" rather "I want my body to heal". It's silly to limit yourself to only qigong when there is so many ways one can heal. Thinking the former is an example of too much 'doing' because you are fighting with the universe that wants to heal you yet you are resisting it's attempts and only allowing a qigong solution. Thinking the latter could also be considered too much 'doing' and is limiting everything the universe could provide you to only healing experiences. But that is the power of thought. By concentrating in one direction your energy is focused, concentrated and powerful. Thinking the latter will heal your body at a faster rate.

 

I found this to be very important. I hope you can understand my explaination to apply it equally to how i understand the different meditative methods work.

[Aaron]

Sloppy,

 

I think the contradiction itself is enough to drive people nuts, the idea that from nothing comes something. That's the real answer to your question by the way, the purpose of emptying your mind is to allow Tao to manifest spontaneously. It allows you to learn to behave intuitively, rather than logically. Remember an empty vessel is useful. Empty mind meditation is not really (IMO) meant for lucid dreaming. I did lucid dreaming for awhile by the way, then stopped, because I felt it was much for fun letting it occur on its own.

 

Aaron

Edited December 21, 2010 by Twinner

[三江源]

Hey guys and gals,

 

I think the thing about emptiness is it is not a vacuous nothingness or nihilism. Rather it is a living dynamic awake-ness - the one living reality. The source of all energy, life, being, existence, activity and creation - not only the source thereof, but the fundamental nature of all these things - not two, but one. So to go deep into emptiness is to discovery a vibrancy and awake-ness - a living intensity of being - the creative force and essence of life itself. So in this sense emptiness / life is far from passive or inactive - it is both active and passive and neither simultaneously. To realise emptiness for a time is to be immersed in energy, power and creativity, while also a deep stillness and profound completeness and fulfillment. This is why some schools of thought suggest that no active energy practices are required - all the energy, power and activity of the entire universe is awakend in oneself when one touches and realises the essence of one's being - emptiness. Emptiness is inseparable from life, energy and activity - inseparable from awareness, cognizance, lucidity, phenomena and being - different dimensions of the one singular reality that is 'just this', here and now - to realise emptiness in meditation and later in everyday life is to see this for yourself. To see it yourself, simply go deeper in your practice. This is how you can judge if you have gone deep enough - that is the realisation - the direct experience.

 

All activity in this world - the drive to be creative, connect with others, share in the human experience, to give to know and be as we are, springs forth from this creative void that is both empty and profoundly full - both still and profoundly active - there is no dualistic dichotomies - only this, just this.

 

On a practical level of lucid dreaming and other meditative and spiritual / life practices - they all seem to awaken of their own accord assuming one goes deep enough into the very essence of life / being - they are all stages in the natural awakening to truth / being / presence / what is / Tao. Once one becomes increasingly lucid in meditation, one becomes lucid in life, and also in dreams. In a sense the 'doing' of the ego is a doing done by a misapprehension of self - when this confusion dissolves in the greater dimension of being that is our true nature all the outcomes that the little self was working towards with its 'doing' come about on their own - as they are of our natural state; however, before we could not see that, as our true nature was obscured by the confusions and 'doings' of this little self. Let go into being, into emptiness, into awareness and all will become apparent - a vast dimension of infinitude of Being will [be] discovered - its already there, we just need to make contact with it.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam. edited for grammar

 

Fantastically clear, lovely. Thanks Adam.

[Aaron]

Hey guys and gals,

 

I think the thing about emptiness is it is not a vacuous nothingness or nihilism. Rather it is a living dynamic awake-ness - the one living reality. The source of all energy, life, being, existence, activity and creation - not only the source thereof, but the fundamental nature of all these things - not two, but one. So to go deep into emptiness is to discovery a vibrancy and awake-ness - a living intensity of being - the creative force and essence of life itself. So in this sense emptiness / life is far from passive or inactive - it is both active and passive and neither simultaneously. To realise emptiness for a time is to be immersed in energy, power and creativity, while also a deep stillness and profound completeness and fulfillment. This is why some schools of thought suggest that no active energy practices are required - all the energy, power and activity of the entire universe is awakend in oneself when one touches and realises the essence of one's being - emptiness. Emptiness is inseparable from life, energy and activity - inseparable from awareness, cognizance, lucidity, phenomena and being - different dimensions of the one singular reality that is 'just this', here and now - to realise emptiness in meditation and later in everyday life is to see this for yourself. To see it yourself, simply go deeper in your practice. This is how you can judge if you have gone deep enough - that is the realisation - the direct experience.

 

All activity in this world - the drive to be creative, connect with others, share in the human experience, to give to know and be as we are, springs forth from this creative void that is both empty and profoundly full - both still and profoundly active - there is no dualistic dichotomies - only this, just this.

 

On a practical level of lucid dreaming and other meditative and spiritual / life practices - they all seem to awaken of their own accord assuming one goes deep enough into the very essence of life / being - they are all stages in the natural awakening to truth / being / presence / what is / Tao. Once one becomes increasingly lucid in meditation, one becomes lucid in life, and also in dreams. In a sense the 'doing' of the ego is a doing done by a misapprehension of self - when this confusion dissolves in the greater dimension of being that is our true nature all the outcomes that the little self was working towards with its 'doing' come about on their own - as they are of our natural state; however, before we could not see that, as our true nature was obscured by the confusions and 'doings' of this little self. Let go into being, into emptiness, into awareness and all will become apparent - a vast dimension of infinitude of Being will [be] discovered - its already there, we just need to make contact with it.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam. edited for grammar

 

Nicely said Adam.

 

Aaron

[Otis]

I think the 'doing' is just as important as the 'not doing' otherwise you are all yin and no yang and therefore not balanced. I think the main point is that you are not 'doing' too much so that all your 'doing' actions fight against each other and your putting in massive amounts of effort and energy but getting nowhere because all your actions are in different directions.

 

By stilling your mind and doing only very little you make effective use of your energy and acheive more. I find with myself the better i get at living the less energy i have to use. It's like my soul uses a remote control mechanism to control my body but depending on my level of meditative state, the levers of the remote control become easier and easier move, and they need to be moved in any direction less and less while having greater and greater effect.

 

Another thing i have found in my practice is not concentrating on details just concentrating on general results. Not "I want to become good at qigong so my body can heal" rather "I want my body to heal". It's silly to limit yourself to only qigong when there is so many ways one can heal. Thinking the former is an example of too much 'doing' because you are fighting with the universe that wants to heal you yet you are resisting it's attempts and only allowing a qigong solution. Thinking the latter could also be considered too much 'doing' and is limiting everything the universe could provide you to only healing experiences. But that is the power of thought. By concentrating in one direction your energy is focused, concentrated and powerful. Thinking the latter will heal your body at a faster rate.

Well said, z00se.

 

The way this has played out in my life, thus far:

 

When "I" am too involved in the doing, I can feel resistance to my efforts, within my body, or out in the world. The extra effort is being translated into stress.

 

When I am using my will to get things done, I tire quickly, and lose focus.

 

But I have found that I can "lean" in the direction of growth, healing, etc., and my body will follow through and fulfill my desire, without a lot of effort or fatigue. I can't make it happen, because the tools belong to the greater me, not the smaller me. But "I" can at least be involved in helping corral my thoughts and energies in a useful direction, and then trust, as I get out of the way of the details.

[z00se]

I can't make it happen, because the tools belong to the greater me, not the smaller me. But "I" can at least be involved in helping corral my thoughts and energies in a useful direction, and then trust, as I get out of the way of the details.

 

Yeah exactely. You can control where you want your life to lead but to try to control details is silly because then you make miricles impossible. The range of events that could occur in the next hour of your life are so enormous that you could be however you want to be in unimaginable ways. The saying 'God works in mysterious ways' is so true.

 

Rainbow_Vein: With the remote control thingo.... I remember running one time, at a time when my body was very fit and i ran effortlessly, and i totally gave up physical control. I was watching my body running and there were no levers being moved at all. I went off my course where i ususally ran and just followed the way i was being pulled. I could actually feel a pull and depending on the direction i ran it was actually easier or more difficult to go that way. Best way to explain is like 2 South magnet poles or a N & S. My breath had no rythem like it normally did based on my stepping and it was just smooth, not interating with my stepping. I didn't think, i didn't plan and i just watched my body run to a place i'd never been before. Then i felt uncomfortable because i didn't know where i was (I was in china at the time and harder to find the way back). My spirit lost control of my body and my ego took over again.

 

I think in our life we should practice any moment we can to give the control to our soul and just be amazed and surprised by where it takes us, but also allow the ego to come back into control again too. To be able to switch between the two purposefully i think is a great goal. Both ways of living are very useful for different reasons.

[Mal]

Cool thread

 

I can't make it happen, because the tools belong to the greater me, not the smaller me. But "I" can at least be involved in helping corral my thoughts and energies in a useful direction, and then trust, as I get out of the way of the details.

 

I agree, and it seems to, well basically take "faith" to go with your feelings. Rather than second guessing and thinking through the issue with your mind.

 

The mind loves to think and "understand", helps to maintain it's "illusion of control"

[Mal]

I think in our life we should practice any moment we can to give the control to our soul and just be amazed and surprised by where it takes us, but also allow the ego to come back into control again too. To be able to switch between the two purposefully i think is a great goal.

 

These two flow from the same source, though differently

named;

And both are called mysteries.

 

The Mystery of mysteries is the Door of all essence.