The Taoist Way of Manifestation

[Stigweard]

[goldisheavy]

Looking good Stig,

 

Now this is all good and well. But it just so goes against my intuitive feelings of Taoist world view -- too controlling, too forced, too rational. And that inner conflict has prevented me moving forward with progressing my business. And it's only been this morning that I finally fully admitted this to myself.

 

Ooops. Ooopsey. So you've been lying to your clients? A little, at least? Hehehe. No worries, lying is the way of life in business. Businessmen are petty individuals by and large. They are motivated by greed, insecurity, egomania and all manner of delusions. This of course doesn't describe every businessman, but it does describe a frighteningly large percentage in my opinion.

 

So I need to reinvent the whole process.

 

So the question there is: What is the Taoist way of motivation?

 

Stig, please slow down. Now dig this: Taoism frowns heavily on ambition. Taoism frowns heavily on materialism in both senses: the view that the world is made of matter and the view that material things are necessary for happiness. This Taoist attitude is 100% contrary to business. I was going to say modern business, but no, it's really contrary to all business, modern or ancient, Western or Eastern, doesn't matter.

 

Taoists laugh at ambitious people. They are thought of as fools, as idiots. Taoists have notoriously rejected the title of the Emperor when offered by abdicating Emperors.

 

Do you understand the importance of what I am saying? Do you know that the stupid morons you preach to in your corporate consultant role would delight, they would jump at the opportunity to be an Emperor?

 

In my opinion if Taoist values were used in business, you'd end up with something similar to Semco or Mondragon corporation.

 

So I suggest you look up Semco, then Ricardo Semler, and then Mondragon for inspiration.

 

In general Taoism is highly renunciant in spirit. It is hardcore. I am not sure if there is some kind of Taoism-light that is really compatible with business 100%.

 

Oh, and the Taoist way of motivation is simple -- don't motivate anyone! People already have natural motivations. If that's not enough, then you have to adjust your company instead of giving people a kick in the arse to work harder. In other words, if people aren't motivated, don't try to motivate them! Let them rest. Heal them. Then their natural motivation will return. That's the Taoist approach.

 

Have you read Wen Tzu?

Edited December 21, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Starjumper]

Hi Stig, this is an interesting subject that I have learned quite a bit about lately.

 

I didn't take the time to read through you whole post, but from scanning it it feels like you left out a piece, which is an important piece, and I believe it's the main piece, that has quite magical properties. Particularly when I use them, I mean it's weird, you really have to watch out what you wish for, and how you word it is all important.

 

The magical qualities are of course dependent on a person's mind power and I would say that they align perfectly with the Taoist secrets of manifestation.

 

However it's not just the wording, it's the attitude that generates the wording that counts, the wording just follows naturally form the attitude, but there is a feedback loop, using wording, of course, that can be used to establish it.

 

Abraham Hicks has the key you seek, have you heard of Abraham Hicks, Stig?

Edited December 21, 2010 by Starjumper7

[goldisheavy]

I figured I'll type up section 3 from Wen Tzu, starting on page 5. It's relevant to what you're talking about and I'll highlight in bold the parts that are especially relevant:

 

Lao-tzu said:

 

Those who hold to the Way to guide the people go along with affairs as they occur and act in accord with what people do. They respond to developments in all beings and harmonize with changes in all events.

 

So the Way is empty and unreified, even and easy, clear and calm, flexible and yielding, unadulterated and pure, plain and simple. These are concrete images of the Way.

 

Empty nonreification is the abode of the Way. Even ease is the basis of the Way. Clear calm is the mirror of the Way. Flexible yielding is the function of the Way. Reversal is normal for the Way: flexibility is the firmness of the Way, yielding is the strength of the Way. Unadulterated purity and simplicity are the trunk of the Way.

 

Emptiness means there is no burden within. Evenness means the mind is untrammeled. When habitual desires do not burden you, this is the consummation of emptiness. When you have no likes or dislikes, this is the consummation of evenness. When you are unified and unchanging, this is the consummation of calmness. When you are not mixed up in things, this is the consummation of purity. When you neither grieve nor delight, this is the consummation of virtue.

 

The government of complete people abandons intellectualism and does away with showy adornment. Depending on the Way, it rejects cunning. It emerges from fairness, in unison with people. It limits what is kept, and minimizes what is sought. It gets rid of seductive longings, eliminates desire for valuables, and lessens rumination.

 

Limiting what is kept results in clarity; minimizing what is sought results in attainment. Therefore when the external is controlled by the center, nothing is neglected. If you can attain the center, then you can govern the external.

 

With attainment of the center, the internal organs are calm, thoughts are even, sinews and bones are strong, ears and eyes are clear.

 

The Great Way is level and not far from oneself. Those who seek it afar go and then return.

 

And a part of section 4:

 

Lao-tzu said:

 

Sagehood has nothing to do with governing others but is a matter of ordering oneself. Nobility has nothing to do with power and rank but is a matter of self-realization; attain self-realization and the whole world is found in the self. Happiness has nothing to do with wealth and status, but is a matter of harmony.

 

Those who know enough to deem the self important and consider the world slight are close to the Way. Therefore I have said, "Reaching the extreme of emptiness, keeping utterly still, as myriad beings act in concert, I thereby observe the return."

 

...

...

...

 

Real people know how to deem the self great and the world small; they esteem self-government and disdain governing others. They do not let things disturb their harmony, they do not let desires derange their feelings. Concealing their names, they hide when the Way is in effect and appear when it is not. They act without contrivance, work without striving, and know without intellectualizing.

 

If you read some of this to the corporate idiots, most likely their ears will fall off and their stomachs will churn, because this is so alien to their mindset. It's almost the exact opposite of how they behave and what they believe. I wish there was a softer way to say it that would still be true, but I don't see it.

 

Good luck.

[Aaron]

Hello Stig,

 

I'm not sure if I follow your premise either. I know what you're saying, but I think there might be a simpler way to present it. I also feel that manifestation isn't going to be forced, rather it comes when you allow it to, so perhaps the key there is to learn to adapt to what's going on around you and to work in harmony with others, rather than opposed to them.

 

With that said, you're a great writer and speaker, so I'm sure you'll figure it out in the end.

 

Aaron

Edited December 21, 2010 by Twinner

[Starjumper]

Those were both very good, Gold, especially the last one, just the words I was seeking for elsewhere, thanks =)

[Starjumper]

Which translation is that from please?

[Aaron]

Hello Goldisheavy,

 

I just wanted to point out where you have called other people names or made derogatory comments towards others, so that you can see how often you actually do it...

 

oops. Ooopsey. So you've been lying to your clients? A little, at least? Hehehe. No worries, lying is the way of life in business. Businessmen are petty individuals by and large. They are motivated by greed, insecurity, egomania and all manner of delusions. This of course doesn't describe every businessman, but it does describe a frighteningly large percentage in my opinion.

 

Taoists laugh at ambitious people. They are thought of as fools, as idiots. Taoists have notoriously rejected the title of the Emperor when offered by abdicating Emperors.

 

Do you understand the importance of what I am saying? Do you know that the stupid morons you preach to in your corporate consultant role would delight, they would jump at the opportunity to be an Emperor?

 

If you read some of this to the corporate idiots, most likely their ears will fall off and their stomachs will churn, because this is so alien to their mindset. It's almost the exact opposite of how they behave and what they believe. I wish there was a softer way to say it that would still be true, but I don't see it.

 

I think if you go back and look, about 25% if everything you say is derogatory in some way. It makes me wonder if you truly understand what you're quoting, because it seems to me that you're missing the simplest of points, you do not act in accord with others by causing strife or demeaning them.

 

Chapter 67 of the Tao Teh Ching says,

 

"I have Three Treasures, which I hold fast and watch over closely. The first is Mercy. The second is Frugality. The third is Not Daring to Be First in the World.

 

Because I am merciful, therefore I can be brave. Because I am frugal, therefore I can be generous. Because I dare not be first, therefore I can be the chief of all vessels."

 

Chapter 81 ends by saying,

 

"The Way of Heaven is to benefit, not to harm.

The Way of the Sage is to do his duty, not to strive

with anyone."

 

I could give you numerous other examples that directly advocate treating others with respect, not calling others names, and not competing with others. Lao Tzu understood this, which is one of the reasons you will never find anything derogatory about Confucius within the Tao Teh Ching.

 

With that said, I'm not saying this to belittle you or humiliate you, but rather point out that your way of communicating, calling people names and belittling them, is something you have learned to do, and if you are going to truly understand what you are reading, something you need to unlearn.

 

I wont say that I haven't resorted to name calling in my own life, but one thing I have learned is that it resolves nothing. Today I make a concerted effort to address the argument at hand and not address the people themselves. I will not call someone an "idiot", "hypocrite", or any other it, because when I do so, I have started to compete with them. The key for me is to express my point of view and move on, not prove that I am right. If someone doesn't seem to get my point, then the other thing I need to be aware of is when to stop.

 

I think much of this has to do with the fact that you are young, so I think as time goes by you may understand this better than you do now. In the meantime, there's no reason why you can't begin to work on these issues.

 

You have a lot of good stuff to say, but calling people names, speaking in a derogatory manner, and belittling others is going to cause a lot of people to read what you say and never take it seriously. Before you get upset about this understand that most people who have studied the Tao in depth understand the concept of compassion and respect, when someone comes along that doesn't reflect those attributes in their actions, they often times view them as an intellectual Taoist, rather than a practitioner of the Tao.

 

Again, I am not telling you this to be mean, but rather to call attention to something that you might not be aware of.

 

Aaron

Edited December 21, 2010 by Twinner

[Otis]

Stigweard,

 

Kudos for seeing the contradiction within your previous presentation and the recommended flow of Taoism. Oh, and cool magic, too.

 

I think you're heading in the right direction; creating a presentation that will actually bridge the gap to your clientele, without preaching a bunch of conceptual-, future-based mental mess. It's a tough thing to pull off, because there's such a culture gap between the Taoist and corporate postures. Best of luck with it!

[goldisheavy]

Which translation is that from please?

 

Translated by Thomas Cleary

isbn 0-87773-862-9

[Stigweard]

Thanks all

 

Ooops. Ooopsey. So you've been lying to your clients? A little, at least? Hehehe. No worries, lying is the way of life in business. Businessmen are petty individuals by and large. They are motivated by greed, insecurity, egomania and all manner of delusions. This of course doesn't describe every businessman, but it does describe a frighteningly large percentage in my opinion.

 

Well not lying exactly I mean the system has been proven and is guaranteed to work, and it is the sort of treadmill cogs and wheels system that corporate Human Resource people like. However I have increasingly found it stifling and quite frankly dead boring.

 

But yes there is an ethical question over me promoting something that I really don't believe is the best.

 

Now dig this: Taoism frowns heavily on ambition. Taoism frowns heavily on materialism in both senses: the view that the world is made of matter and the view that material things are necessary for happiness. This Taoist attitude is 100% contrary to business. I was going to say modern business, but no, it's really contrary to all business, modern or ancient, Western or Eastern, doesn't matter.

 

Taoists laugh at ambitious people. They are thought of as fools, as idiots. Taoists have notoriously rejected the title of the Emperor when offered by abdicating Emperors

 

LOL is the Taoism that frowns on something still Taoism?

 

But I do hear ya But I don't think Taoist principles are "100% contrary to business".

 

Just to extend the conversation and explore all corners:

 

Which Taoism are you talking about when you are saying that Taoists frown on the view that the world is made of matter? Taoism in my view is very pragmatic and realistic. That the world is made of material things is just a simple reality, no point trying to abstract it into anything else.

 

But yes material things are not the cornerstone for happiness.

 

However, Taoists, being the natural philosophers they are, observed that when nature is in harmony then life grows abundantly of its own accord. Just so it can be seen that when a community of individuals are in harmony then abundant sufficiency is the natural and effortless result.

 

So there is a direct link between the Taoist integral wholeness and the naturally emerging level of prosperity of an individual or community. So when you look at the outline I have given, that is what I have endeavored to articulate.

 

You have raised some great points Gold and I want to get to the all. No time for now.

 

--------------------

 

I do want to speak directly to Twinner here ... what do you think is more offensive? Gold's vernacular or your intrusion into my topic to pursue some sort of personal vendetta?

 

Gold and I have a great history of exchanges and we know where each other are coming from ... I consider him a friend and a great debating partner. Trust me, when Gold is insulting me its actually a compliment.

 

--------------------

 

Enough for now ... I want to keep pursuing this.

[goldisheavy]

You have a lot of good stuff to say, but calling people names, speaking in a derogatory manner, and belittling others is going to cause a lot of people to read what you say and never take it seriously.

 

Look how politely Lao-tzu spoke and yet no one takes him seriously even today, after more than 2 thousand of years passed.

 

If I was really doing this for my own self-aggrandizement, then being taken seriously would be a very important consideration for me.

 

However, I care little about the opinion of others of me. My only "goal" is to maintain my own integrity. I callz them like I seez them. My language is meant to be a little spicy and entertaining, but it's never meant to do anything more than tickle.

 

If we maintain pretentious propriety, then the slightest impropriety will be perceived as a great threat to common order, and society will become unstable, while even the slightest criticism will be perceived as libel (already happened in UK). This is why true Taoists like myself do not worry about propriety. We only worry about integrity, which is to say deep inner honesty and maintaining conduct that reflects the center of my being without aberration and without adjusting it.

 

Before you get upset about this understand that most people who have studied the Tao

 

Tao cannot be studied. We can study Taoist writings, however, and that's a good thing. But don't confuse studying Taoist writings with studying Tao.

 

in depth understand the concept of compassion and respect, when someone comes along that doesn't reflect those attributes in their actions, they often times view them as an intellectual Taoist, rather than a practitioner of the Tao.

 

People who hold respect and propriety as their number one value are called "Confucian." They are pretty much the ideological enemy of the Taoists.

 

Remember that there are no good and bad at the ultimate level. Do you remember that? Remember how you were preaching to me that there is no such thing as good and bad? What happened to you? Why are you such a hypocrite? You also said you'd put me on ignore, and what happened to that? So obviously you have little integrity.

 

Again, I am not telling you this to be mean, but rather to call attention to something that you might not be aware of.

 

Aaron

 

You are being mean. You are offensive, but you don't realize it because you confuse superficial offense with offending integrity.

Edited December 21, 2010 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Thanks all

 

 

 

Well not lying exactly

 

Of course. You've been telling them something that you don't believe in your heart, but you know it sells, even if it doesn't work.

 

I mean the system has been proven and is guaranteed to work,

 

 

and it is the sort of treadmill cogs and wheels system that corporate Human Resource people like. However I have increasingly found it stifling and quite frankly dead boring.

 

Riiight.

 

But yes there is an ethical question over me promoting something that I really don't believe is the best.

 

Riiiight.

 

LOL is the Taoism that frowns on something still Taoism?

 

But I do hear ya But I don't think Taoist principles are "100% contrary to business".

 

Neither do I. After all I did bring up Semco, Ricardo Semler, and Mondragon.

 

Just to extend the conversation and explore all corners:

 

Which Taoism are you talking about when you are saying that Taoists frown on the view that the world is made of matter? Taoism in my view is very pragmatic and realistic. That the world is made of material things is just a simple reality, no point trying to abstract it into anything else.

 

In Taoism non-being is as real as being. Which Taoism is that? You tell me. In the materialist philosophy there is no place for a concept like non-being. It doesn't even make sense from a materialist POV.

 

But yes material things are not the cornerstone for happiness.

 

However, Taoists, being the natural philosophers they are, observed that when nature is in harmony then life grows abundantly of its own accord. Just so it can be seen that when a community of individuals are in harmony then abundant sufficiency is the natural and effortless result.

 

So there is a direct link between the Taoist integral wholeness and the naturally emerging level of prosperity of an individual or community. So when you look at the outline I have given, that is what I have endeavored to articulate.

 

I don't think you came close to articulating the Taoist value of simplicity and non-ambition.

 

For what it's worth, I am convinced you're doing the best you can to bring a ray of sunshine into these people's lives and that's very commendable and I don't mean to stop you from doing it.

[Marblehead]

In Taoism non-being is as real as being. Which Taoism is that? You tell me. In the materialist philosophy there is no place for a concept like non-being. It doesn't even make sense from a materialist POV.

 

 

You mentioned one of my labels and that caught my attention. Hehehe.

 

Oh, we believe in non-being but not an individual, ghost-like or spirit-like personality. The non-being we believe in is the Mystery.

[fiveelementtao]

Hi Stig,

Nice vid!

I have had to simplify my manifestation ideas of late...

 

For me, the key to power in manifestation is directly linked with my surrender to my destiny... Sometimes that can be frightening...

 

Usually when people talk about manifestation, they mean money or success. All good things definitely...

For me, any success or prosperity is directly linked to me surrendering to my destiny and then taking action based on that destiny as I understand it. So, I have to get out of the idea of earning money for the sake of money...

 

In other words, if I am investing my energies that are not linked to my highest service to my fellows, no matter how much action i take, I usually only manifest roadblocks.

If however, I am investing energy into surrendering to my destiny and then take action toward that destiny however scary that is, then I find, I am able to manifest prosperity and success more powerfully.

Just my experience. I am sure it is different with others...

[goldisheavy]

You mentioned one of my labels and that caught my attention. Hehehe.

 

Oh, we believe in non-being but not an individual, ghost-like or spirit-like personality. The non-being we believe in is the Mystery.

 

No problem Marble, but the idea of Mystery still has no place in materialism. I imagine most thoroughgoing materialists would scoff at such an idea.

[Aaron]

Hello Goldisheavy,

 

This is why true Taoists like myself do not worry about propriety.

 

Once you said that, alarm bells started ringing. Once you know the truth, then there is no reason to continue to learn, everything else, of course, is a lie.

 

In regards to good and bad, there is no good or bad at the ultimate level, but rather only what exists. However we can't perceive good, if we do not perceive bad. In the same way I can't function in society without understanding the nature of society. Behaving in socially appropriate ways doesn't mean you're not a part of the Tao, but rather that you are trying to work in harmony with others. I try to be reasonable and follow those precepts that I think help me to work in harmony and discard those that don't.

 

Also, repeating that I'm a hypocrite doesn't make it so. You take a snippet of what I discuss and take it out of context. I never said there wasn't a good or bad, or that it was an illusion, I said that there is the duality and then the whole of reality, that's different.

 

If you want to continue this discussion, start a new thread or message me and I'd be happy to discuss it more, but it's rude to carry on in this thread and I should have messaged you to begin with.

 

Aaron

Edited December 22, 2010 by Twinner

[Stigweard]

Of course. You've been telling them something that you don't believe in your heart, but you know it sells, even if it doesn't work.

 

Well to be fair to the system, it does work for those of a particular mindset, i.e. technical analytical types who thrive from clear and defined rules and regulations. It was designed for the corporate environment and, if the syntax is followed, then it does produce results (it's actually part of my guarantee ).

 

However, as we are discussing, it has increasingly become apparent to me that it doesn't gel with my core beliefs so I need to change what I am doing else I just have to get out of the corporate speaking arena completely.

 

Following this thought I will openly admit that I want develop a new presentation that will work within my current market. But, in saying this, I am more mindful of speaking true to my heart rather than being attached to my current audience. I am sure that my abilities to adapt will go in my favour.

 

In Taoism non-being is as real as being. Which Taoism is that? You tell me. In the materialist philosophy there is no place for a concept like non-being. It doesn't even make sense from a materialist POV.

 

Sure I hear you, but Taoism is not anti-materialism in the sense of being renunciative of the material world. What we are about is not creating artificial systems of hierarchical valuation of things and, by not indulging in such contrived preferential identification of material goods, we avoid the exhaustion brought about by incessant desire and craving.

 

We certainly do embrace the fact that people need basic material things to "fill their bellies" and "strengthen their bones". But this materialism only extends as far as providing what could be deemed naturally arising sufficiency and abundance.

 

The other thing to consider is the variants around our De. Now my POV of De is that it is our self-nature, our individual expression of the universal Tao. Now it may be that the persons individual De gives them a natural predilection, or even natural destiny if you wish, to be successful in the area of material wealth. In that case then the most naturally evolving thing for that person to do is to allow this natural wealth to manifest.

 

Not to extraneously pursue or crave this wealth, but to simply allow its natural occurrence.

 

To throw other examples around. Let's say someone was a singer and singing was the natural emanation of their De to sing. Do you think that this person should pursue their life path as a singer? Not for ambition's sake, nor for recognition or accolades, but because singing is the most natural thing for them to do.

 

We could ask the same thing about a leather tanner, or a builder, or a medical practitioner and I am sure that we would agree that these people should follow the inner direction of their De. So what about the business man? What if it was the person's "higher calling" to excel at commerce? Should this person deny this calling because someone has declared that business is somehow "wrong"?

 

Or is it perhaps that you think that in following Tao we all end up the same color of gray?

 

Now non-ambition is a very important discussion to have, and I thank you for the Wenzi quotes that you have provided. This is one area that was definitely creating conflicting thoughts for me. The corporate world is all about ambition and managers just love it when I fire their staff up with ambition -- "Let's go hit them KPI's boys!!" LOL

 

I believe this notion of non-ambition comes back to wei wu wei which, for this purpose, I am rendering as leading without controlling, or action without contrived effort.

 

Is there such a thing as natural ambition?

 

We discussed a similar line of thought over in Are preferences natural and thus in accordance with Tao?, and I believe the same points can be raised around ambition.

 

Does a flower exhibit ambition as it turns its face to follow the sun? Does a lion have ambition when it stalks a gazelle?

 

I think a differentiation can be made between when an ambition arises naturally from the "movement of De" and when it arises from contrived thinking. In one instance we are simply "going with the flow" of our inner inspiration, in the other instance we are trying to artifice something out of nothing or forcing something against its natural movement.

 

And I think that it may not be absolutely correct to say that Taoists don't have ambition. Our intention is to "be one with Tao", to be healthy, to be harmonious. If we were puritan with our words then we would say that these things are the Taoists' "ambitions". True not ambition in the commonly used sense, but perhaps ambition all the same. The key again comes back to wei wu wei.

[Stigweard]

Hi Stig,

Nice vid!

I have had to simplify my manifestation ideas of late...

 

For me, the key to power in manifestation is directly linked with my surrender to my destiny... Sometimes that can be frightening...

 

Usually when people talk about manifestation, they mean money or success. All good things definitely...

For me, any success or prosperity is directly linked to me surrendering to my destiny and then taking action based on that destiny as I understand it. So, I have to get out of the idea of earning money for the sake of money...

 

In other words, if I am investing my energies that are not linked to my highest service to my fellows, no matter how much action i take, I usually only manifest roadblocks.

If however, I am investing energy into surrendering to my destiny and then take action toward that destiny however scary that is, then I find, I am able to manifest prosperity and success more powerfully.

Just my experience. I am sure it is different with others...

Yes yes yes !!!

 

This is my current orientation as well. To initially provide some basic inclination of what a fulfilled life means to you, but to then let go of the reins and surrender and allow "destiny" (if there is such a thing) to naturally emerge.

 

And I will concur with your experience, that, when I look back over my life, the moments of "high success" and achievement have come when there was that surge of energy that we could perhaps call destiny, or my preferred term "true inspiration".

 

Thank you for sharing.

 

[Stigweard]

Oh, and the Taoist way of motivation is simple -- don't motivate anyone! People already have natural motivations. If that's not enough, then you have to adjust your company instead of giving people a kick in the arse to work harder. In other words, if people aren't motivated, don't try to motivate them! Let them rest. Heal them. Then their natural motivation will return. That's the Taoist approach.

And I felt this was worthy or re-quoting as well

[Starjumper]

This is my current orientation as well. To initially provide some basic inclination of what a fulfilled life means to you, but to then let go of the reins and surrender and allow "destiny" (if there is such a thing) to naturally emerge.

 

And I will concur with your experience, that, when I look back over my life, the moments of "high success" and achievement have come when there was that surge of energy that we could perhaps call destiny, or my preferred term "true inspiration".

 

You are getting closer. The main thing in my view. People need to be able to feel the desire and ENJOY the desire as if it is being fulfilled right now, because if a person is enjoying the desire then they WILL be fulfilling their wish 'right now'

 

It's a special kind of desire, one filled with joy at the traveling towards the goal. Not the other kind of desire, the abject remorse at impending failure and loss before people even get start ( and they often don't even start then).

 

It's the attitude of enjoying the desire that makes all the difference. Think JOY, think EAGERNESS, think EXCITEMENT.

 

You know, like a friggin' five year old kid who was just let loose in a candy store!

 

THAT is the Taoist Way.

Edited December 22, 2010 by Starjumper7

[goldisheavy]

Well to be fair to the system, it does work for those of a particular mindset, i.e. technical analytical types who thrive from clear and defined rules and regulations. It was designed for the corporate environment and, if the syntax is followed, then it does produce results (it's actually part of my guarantee ).

 

I think your systems will definitely work for you, and they will probably work for those HR folks who will try them. (How many is that? Do you do follow up surveys?)

 

When I said they don't work I meant to say in all likelihood the HR people are not terribly interested in something other than the status quo and perhaps moving up the corporate ranks. I would say your system worked if it made HR people act less as employment speed bumps and more as enablers who find great people that they would previously reject because they didn't have the right buzzwords on their resume, things like that. And then I would also say it worked if in every employer-employee conflict scenario they had a very strong bias to take the employee's side. In other words, it worked if it made the world a better place and made corporate cultures more humane.

 

Now if some HR ass wants to climb up the corporate ladder and uses your system to successfully rise 3-4 levels in a year, you'd probably say your system worked, while I would say it didn't work. If that happened I would say it's possibly a tragedy, if anything.

 

However, as we are discussing, it has increasingly become apparent to me that it doesn't gel with my core beliefs so I need to change what I am doing else I just have to get out of the corporate speaking arena completely.

 

You can try shocking them with the truth in small doses. For example, casually slip in the idea that motivation is not something that must be cajoled, that it's always there when the person is well rested and healthy. But this can backfire if it goes too strongly against what they already believe to be true.

 

Following this thought I will openly admit that I want develop a new presentation that will work within my current market. But, in saying this, I am more mindful of speaking true to my heart rather than being attached to my current audience. I am sure that my abilities to adapt will go in my favour.

 

I think you have great presentation skills in general, but I have one suggestion. If you're going to do a magic trick, it might be better not to mix magic with important information. The reason I say that is because when you're doing magic, my mind is focused on the magic that I know is going to happen with the money and I am not paying attention to anything you're saying. This may be what you want if you're a hypnotist and you need to distract the conscious mind with the magic trick while you're slipping in your suggestions straight into the subconscious mind. But if you're not attempting hypnosis or NLP, it may be better to let listeners' minds focus on the actual information and then as a reward, show them an illusion later on.

 

The basic idea is that the conscious mind can only focus on one thing at a time. So if you want conscious engagement, you might want to consider what it is you want your viewers to engage with: your illusion or your information about Taoist magic.

 

Sure I hear you, but Taoism is not anti-materialism in the sense of being renunciative of the material world.

 

OK, I guess I've learned about Taoism from different sources then. Or maybe you define renunciation slightly differently from me. I don't know.

 

What we are about is not creating artificial systems of hierarchical valuation of things and, by not indulging in such contrived preferential identification of material goods, we avoid the exhaustion brought about by incessant desire and craving.

 

We certainly do embrace the fact that people need basic material things to "fill their bellies" and "strengthen their bones". But this materialism only extends as far as providing what could be deemed naturally arising sufficiency and abundance.

 

I don't call what you describe above, "materialism." Filling your belly is fine even for a renunciate. Renunciation is not about suffering or depriving oneself. On the material side it's about simplicity and on the inner side it's about an attitude of slight aloofness toward the world and toward one's own destiny. It's a kind of care free attitude that doesn't enter into the extreme of recklessness.

 

The other thing to consider is the variants around our De. Now my POV of De is that it is our self-nature, our individual expression of the universal Tao. Now it may be that the persons individual De gives them a natural predilection, or even natural destiny if you wish, to be successful in the area of material wealth. In that case then the most naturally evolving thing for that person to do is to allow this natural wealth to manifest.

 

Not to extraneously pursue or crave this wealth, but to simply allow its natural occurrence.

 

To throw other examples around. Let's say someone was a singer and singing was the natural emanation of their De to sing. Do you think that this person should pursue their life path as a singer? Not for ambition's sake, nor for recognition or accolades, but because singing is the most natural thing for them to do.

 

Sure, I agree with you here and I like your examples.

 

Now try my example: Imagine someone who is naturally greedy and who is naturally obsessed about the future. That's their De. How will you approach such person?

 

We could ask the same thing about a leather tanner, or a builder, or a medical practitioner and I am sure that we would agree that these people should follow the inner direction of their De. So what about the business man? What if it was the person's "higher calling" to excel at commerce? Should this person deny this calling because someone has declared that business is somehow "wrong"?

 

It's some people's De to be greedy and it's my De to destroy such people. I hope that answers your question. So while yes, sure, everyone follows their De, don't be fooled by it. A synonym for natural is "habitual." I hope this clarifies matters.

 

Or is it perhaps that you think that in following Tao we all end up the same color of gray?

 

Nah.

 

Now non-ambition is a very important discussion to have, and I thank you for the Wenzi quotes that you have provided. This is one area that was definitely creating conflicting thoughts for me. The corporate world is all about ambition and managers just love it when I fire their staff up with ambition -- "Let's go hit them KPI's boys!!" LOL

 

 

I believe this notion of non-ambition comes back to wei wu wei which, for this purpose, I am rendering as leading without controlling, or action without contrived effort.

 

Leading without controlling is something Ricardo Semler is very good at, from what I hear.

 

Is there such a thing as natural ambition?

 

Try these synonyms for "natural": "habitual" and "comfortable." I hope it makes things clearer. Or let me say this: it's only natural that nothing is natural for long.

 

Does a flower exhibit ambition as it turns its face to follow the sun? Does a lion have ambition when it stalks a gazelle?

 

I would say you need to check the lion's health at middle age. If the lion has lesions from heart attacks or ulcers, yes, probably too much ambition. If the lion is healthy, probably no ambition at all. But really I don't know without meeting the lion in person.

 

I think a differentiation can be made between when an ambition arises naturally from the "movement of De" and when it arises from contrived thinking. In one instance we are simply "going with the flow" of our inner inspiration, in the other instance we are trying to artifice something out of nothing or forcing something against its natural movement.

 

I think contrived thinking is when we make things more complicated than they need to be, or when we think things because others say so while we ourselves don't believe in what we're thinking. For example, if you're thinking, "Yea, I have to get back to studying soon for my biology exam" but you're only thinking this way because your father wants you to be a doctor, while you want to be a dancer, then that's an example of contrived thinking.

 

And I think that it may not be absolutely correct to say that Taoists don't have ambition. Our intention is to "be one with Tao", to be healthy, to be harmonious. If we were puritan with our words then we would say that these things are the Taoists' "ambitions". True not ambition in the commonly used sense, but perhaps ambition all the same. The key again comes back to wei wu wei.

 

When we talk about ambition being a bad thing, we mean things like hurry. For example, my ambition is to set the whole universe in order, but then I have 10 aeons to do it, so I am in no hurry. So this means my ambition is a non-ambition.

 

Do you ever notice how some people in the corporate world want everything done yesterday?

 

There is a story in Liezi about a man who decided to move a mountain. That's pretty ambitious right? Except he wasn't in a hurry. He was OK shoveling the mountain all his life a little at a time, then teaching his son to do it, and then his son would teach his son and so on. Remember that story?

Edited December 22, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Stigweard]

I have just bought Ricardo Semler's book on your recommendation Gold ... cheers!

 

Amazon.com: Maverick: The Success Story Behind the World's Most Unusual Workplace (9780446670555): Ricardo Semler: Books

 

[Stigweard]

Brilliant lecture:

 

Leading by Omission | MIT World

 

Very very interesting his admittance at the end of the conscious usage of Taoist principles.

 

Gold you are presently my favorite person in the world (don't get used to it though because there's a few more points I have to debate ) Thank you for this connection.

 

Edited December 22, 2010 by Stigweard

[goldisheavy]

Stig,

 

I am somewhat of a fan of Ricardo. I find his vision inspiring, and so if the chance arises I tend to drop his name pretty quickly. I'm glad you're enjoying it. He's one of those people I want to become when I grow up.