How can time exist?

[TheJourney]

Let's pretend that there exists such a thing as the present moment. If it were truly a present moment, then it could not take up any time, for if it took up time then there would, by necessity, be past, present, and future. If this exists, then how can no time create time? Even if you put an infinite amount of present moments together, still no time would be created, as the present moment takes up no time. So how can time exist?

[Lucky7Strikes]

Let's pretend that there exists such a thing as the present moment. If it were truly a present moment, then it could not take up any time, for if it took up time then there would, by necessity, be past, present, and future. If this exists, then how can no time create time? Even if you put an infinite amount of present moments together, still no time would be created, as the present moment takes up no time. So how can time exist?

I think there are a few problems with your inquiry, anyways here are my 2 cents...

 

1) there is an assumption here that for something to exist it must be created from some other thing

 

2) the question is not really about whether there is such thing as present, past, or future, but how we perceive these definitions...

 

3) these questions should further lead to question of what exactly is "perception"...which leads to questions of identity..

 

4) which is really about our tendencies to define...

 

5) then one realizes it is irrelevant that there "is" or there "is not" but the virtue of uncertaintity

 

But this has just been my experience...

Edited December 24, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Vajrahridaya]

Let's pretend that there exists such a thing as the present moment. If it were truly a present moment, then it could not take up any time, for if it took up time then there would, by necessity, be past, present, and future. If this exists, then how can no time create time? Even if you put an infinite amount of present moments together, still no time would be created, as the present moment takes up no time. So how can time exist?

 

Time is just motion and motion is the activity of consciousness. This has never not existed, so even coming to a point of experiencing no time is based on the flow of time, which is the activity of consciousness. Most consciousness' (plural) activities are based upon clinging or craving, and the activity of enlightened consciousness or consciousness that is self illumined is based upon compassion for these other consciousness' that are active based upon craving. So, really there never has been no time, just the experience of beyond time, which is based upon the fact of time, which is really just motion.

 

So, I'm not really talking necessarily about linear time, as there are all sorts of dimensions of motion; conscious, subconscious and unconscious. For a yogi who illumines the unconscious, other layers of motion become illumined, or other dimensions of time. Even the experience of transcending motion while in motion.

 

There really is no such thing as nothing. There is also not a no-time, as these negations are based on the fact of their opposite. Just as the present moment has so many layers and one is actually only aware of it through the motion of it, even for the senses, we are actually seeing a moment that's already gone, much like the light of stars is perceived, as we know much of that light is reaching us from a sun that's already dead, so we are seeing the past.

 

You can meditate and get into a formless state of nothingness, but this only exists due to the opposite, there really is no nothingness... we are just manifesting it through a particular type of focus.

 

All these concepts are empty and unreal, including empty and unreal. They have no inherent basis. No-time is not any more real or true than time. Non-existence is not any more true than existence.

 

There really is only time and there really is only existence, so one has to sew the right seeds and use time for the best, as there will always be a new moment arising based upon the previous, and this is so since time without beginning. There will never be a time when existence does not exist, even if you get in a state where for you or a group of beings in agreement there doesn't seem to be existence, as this too shall pass... and one will have to take up the responsibility of utilizing time and motion once again.

 

Yes, as Lucky7strikes said,

 

It's more about what is perception and what is consciousness and how can one make the activity of consciousness and perception beneficial to one and all.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[electric gravity]

time does exist but its not what we think it is. Time is very personal and very nessesary time is a gift to let us grow at our own rate. time is yang it keeps us from being one and allows us to develop our nature. when we practice things like meditation we become more yin back to oneness.

 

everything that exists has its own time and it follows the time of a greater system like we follow the earth's and so on.

 

Time is a gift from god.

 

Time is closely related to karma.

 

A taoist alchemic view of time would be like this,

 

Time = Having the ability to exist and grow

To have this gift of time you must have good karma this good karma is equal to potential

 

Potential is equal to jing

 

jing is almost equal with vitality

 

think about this.

 

Young people have an overwhelming sense of potential that they feel like they can do anything. Potential is a real something it is the other side of jing that is lessened by bad karma.

 

this is why to have high attainment you must conserve and transmute jing while cultivating te or what taoist would call purifying your essence.

 

bad karma ages you by lessening your potential (thus lessening your time on the planet) this is why adults feel like they cant do anything in spirit because they have accumulated bad karma over the years.

 

building up and transmuting jing does not build regain potential for that you must deal with the bad karma that you have acquired

 

there is always more to it.

Edited December 24, 2010 by electric gravity

[Marblehead]

If you wake up in the morning you still have more time to get it right.

 

Time is a measurement, not a thing in itself.

[TheJourney]

What i'm trying to say is. There is only flux. There is no moment to moment. There is only the flow. It is all that exists. As you all say, it's not about "time" or "no time" but really the truth transcends time and space, for at an ultimate level there is no separation, in terms of time or space, and yet the nature of that non-separation is flux within time and space.

Edited December 24, 2010 by TheJourney

[Vajrahridaya]

What i'm trying to say is. There is only flux. There is no moment to moment. There is only the flow. It is all that exists. As you all say, it's not about "time" or "no time" but really the truth transcends time and space, for at an ultimate level there is no separation, in terms of time or space, and yet the nature of that non-separation is flux within time and space.

 

Ok, sounds good to me!

[Marblehead]

Ok, sounds good to me!

 

Yep.

[Birch]

Oh yikes, I agree with some of this

 

Except the parts about gifts from gods because in my time there are none. None at all. So why are all those people fighting over the ideas of whose god is better? Because they're insane.

 

Edited: typo

Edited December 24, 2010 by Kate

[Marblehead]

Except the parts about gifts from gods because in my time there are none. None at all. So why are all those people fighting over the ideas of whose god is better? Because they're insane.

 

Well, sure, I agree with you. I just ignored it. Hehehe.

[manitou]

This is much more metaphorical than what you probably want, but I visualise time as a deck of cards. The whole of what 'is' is the deck fully stacked and just sitting there. Time is contained within the deck, but not manifesting. When the deck is fanned out onto the green felt, is when time is seen. From our angle we can see only one card at a time, thinking this is what time is. One card after another. One day after another. But in reality, the card is only a part of the deck that is the whole.

I think when persons have visions that see the future, they're merely seeing the whole deck which includes past, present, future in it; somehow they've accessed the dimension where time is removed. All the other elements and dynamics are latent within until time unfolds the deck. I see them as not 'looking down the road', but rather looking up at the full deck without the distortion of time. It all is. It's all present. It's all now.

[electric gravity]

those who say time is just flux are talking about just the mental what about the physical. To bypass time in the body?

 

This is where taoist alchemy comes in.

 

When a baby is born how do you think its time is imparted to it?

 

Look ill put it like this those who figure out what time actually is in this sense will discover the secret of immortality.

 

you lose time when ever the mind body and spirit are not insync with each other when this happens what tcm doctors call blockages or negative chi enter the body. When the mind body and spirit are one and are in harmony the guardian chi is strong and the real vitality and potential is regained. This one of the reasons why taichi and the similar arts before it was developed you have to have a physical connection to your body while meditating.

 

hint 1. you lose potential, accumalte bad karma and so on when ever you go against your heart your heart follows the greater heart of the tao.

 

potential like jing is the combination of your mind body and spirit working as one when this harmony is lost the force that keeps us together (time) leaves us.

 

we taoists are all about time if we bypassed it altogether we would be immortals already.

Edited December 24, 2010 by electric gravity

[3bob]

This is much more metaphorical than what you probably want, but I visualise time as a deck of cards. The whole of what 'is' is the deck fully stacked and just sitting there. Time is contained within the deck, but not manifesting. When the deck is fanned out onto the green felt, is when time is seen. From our angle we can see only one card at a time, thinking this is what time is. One card after another. One day after another. But in reality, the card is only a part of the deck that is the whole.

I think when persons have visions that see the future, they're merely seeing the whole deck which includes past, present, future in it; somehow they've accessed the dimension where time is removed. All the other elements and dynamics are latent within until time unfolds the deck. I see them as not 'looking down the road', but rather looking up at the full deck without the distortion of time. It all is. It's all present. It's all now.

 

Manitou,

 

Good analogy/image.

[ralis]

Here is a review of Einstein, Feynman and their work on time.

 

 

http://everythingforever.com/einstein.htm

[ralis]

Time is just motion and motion is the activity of consciousness.

 

That is a simplistic and mechanistic view which is more Newtonian than the work of Einstein. See my latest post in this thread.

[manitou]

Thanks for posting the Einstein article Ralis -

 

Taking this one step further, maybe time is really a distortion of What Is.

 

Quantum physics was mentioned in the article too - I see quantum physics to be a direct analogy of what time and space are. The dichotomy of matter being both a particle and a wave of probability: a particle takes up space only. A wave assumes an element of time, as the measurement can be taken from point A to point B within the wave. Is it correct to posit that we are seated at the intersection of space and time within the quantum universe?

[strawdog65]

If you wake up in the morning you still have more time to get it right.

 

Time is a measurement, not a thing in itself.

 

 

Yes! Marbles!

 

 

Time is a man-made concept.

It has no basis in reality, other than our own perception.

Only man has a need to quantify the unquantifiable.

 

It is only a way of measuring what is perceived by the

mind of man as what is the passing of this, Now.

[ralis]

Thanks for posting the Einstein article Ralis -

 

Taking this one step further, maybe time is really a distortion of What Is.

 

Quantum physics was mentioned in the article too - I see quantum physics to be a direct analogy of what time and space are. The dichotomy of matter being both a particle and a wave of probability: a particle takes up space only. A wave assumes an element of time, as the measurement can be taken from point A to point B within the wave. Is it correct to posit that we are seated at the intersection of space and time within the quantum universe?

 

To measure from point A to B is a probability function? Not an absolute? The wave has no boundaries except values that are arbitrary . Theoretically would not the wave have a positive value of 1? Meaning no boundaries?

 

If we are seated at the intersection, does that not imply a separate existence?

[3bob]

Just as pure energy and light are spun and woven out of Mystery so is time and space, and so to they also reverse and return...

 

Any thoughts about time and space are only thoughts, although interesting and provable to various degrees such are still thoughts are of mind, and all of mind is also spun out of the Mystery...

 

Few of us dare the "beyond" where mind and memories do not spin and weave, since we tend to think we are a particular mind (along with emotions and a body) and are thus stuck when it comes to knowing that which is an unknownable by the limited power of mind, besides only fools give up their private and group minds that they have so carefully assembled through thick and thin and fought like hell to own.

 

Om

Edited December 24, 2010 by 3bob

[Lucky7Strikes]

What i'm trying to say is. There is only flux. There is no moment to moment. There is only the flow. It is all that exists. As you all say, it's not about "time" or "no time" but really the truth transcends time and space, for at an ultimate level there is no separation, in terms of time or space, and yet the nature of that non-separation is flux within time and space.

Yes yes, but isn't it weird how we still perceive things, a this and thats, in this constant flux?

[ralis]

Yes yes, but isn't it weird how we still perceive things, a this and thats, in this constant flux?

 

The brain is a reduction filter that only allow certain data to be perceived. Therefor, the constant flux is not perceived.

[Marblehead]

Yes! Marbles!

 

Time is a man-made concept.

It has no basis in reality, other than our own perception.

Only man has a need to quantify the unquantifiable.

 

It is only a way of measuring what is perceived by the

mind of man as what is the passing of this, Now.

 

Yep. But I feel I should point out that it is a very important measurement in our every-day life. It is the only way we can coordinate events that are scheduled to take place in the future.

 

So I wasn't down-playing the importance of time in my above post, it is just that I think we shouldn't worry too much about it. You know, we all need allow time for sleeping, eating, etc.

[strawdog65]

Yep. But I feel I should point out that it is a very important measurement in our every-day life. It is the only way we can coordinate events that are scheduled to take place in the future.

 

So I wasn't down-playing the importance of time in my above post, it is just that I think we shouldn't worry too much about it. You know, we all need allow time for sleeping, eating, etc.

 

 

A space-time coordinate.

Only good for events needing cooperation.

 

Time and the concept of time is purely man-made.

Nature has no use of explaining the passing of NOW.

 

Time as a concept has no use, except to man.

 

Useful to us because we have a need to measure and

explain everything, as if quantifying something tells

us more about it.

 

 

Without the concept of time, all things would still flow.

 

Progression would continue.

 

The earth moves slowly, as all things are

accomplished with no effort, by nature.

 

 

 

peace!

[Vajrahridaya]

That is a simplistic and mechanistic view which is more Newtonian than the work of Einstein. See my latest post in this thread.

 

Consciousness is not mechanistic. How you got Newtonian, is beyond me. You must have not really read what I wrote and not felt what was being referenced, due to not having an internal context.

 

Not a surprise.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

The brain is a reduction filter that only allow certain data to be perceived. Therefor, the constant flux is not perceived.

 

It can be in states of refined consciousness transcending popular definitions of brain limitations.

 

As I said, there are layers to consciousness and perception and our consciousness is not limited to the brain. Or rather there are different dimensions of conscious experience and awareness refined and illumined through spiritual practice can perceive deeper and more expanded dimensions through space.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Vajrahridaya