The Three Wise Men were Taoist!

[Sunya]

The Qu'Ran certainly counts as evidence.

 

I personally believe that the evidence is overwhelming when you add up the number of found texts.

 

Evidence for what? For the existence of Jesus? Quran was written 600 years after Jesus supposedly lived.

[Sunya]

Have you guys seen the movie Zeitgeist? I'm watching it now and it's really interesting! The beginning talks about the astrological symbols in the Bible.. why the cross is used as a symbol, the 3 days resurrection, why dec 25th, and the connection to Horus and other cultural depictions of the sun. Really worth watching!

[strawdog65]

Have you guys seen the movie Zeitgeist? I'm watching it now and it's really interesting! The beginning talks about the astrological symbols in the Bible.. why the cross is used as a symbol, the 3 days resurrection, why dec 25th, and the connection to Horus and other cultural depictions of the sun. Really worth watching!

 

 

Hi Sunya!

 

Hey! i'm glad you are watching the Zeitgeist movies, there are 2, the second one talks

about our very corrupt money system and there is a great part on the Venus Project.

 

What a lot of people don't realize is that most religions are formed from what was before.

This is so with the whole of the Christ mythology. It was an updating and adding on of

other cultural beliefs and Astrology! Thats where the fish symbol became associated

with Jesus. It was during the age of Pisces that Jesus was supposed to have been "virgin

birthed". So all those "christians" are riding around with a Pagan symbol on the back of their

cars and don't even know it!

 

The Zeitgeist movies... real eye openers!

 

And The Venus Project!

 

And Yes I agree... it is entirely possible that the wise men were Taoist in nature.

Thats assuming that is, IF there was a baby Jesus to begin with.

[Prince...]

Have you guys seen the movie Zeitgeist? I'm watching it now and it's really interesting! The beginning talks about the astrological symbols in the Bible.. why the cross is used as a symbol, the 3 days resurrection, why dec 25th, and the connection to Horus and other cultural depictions of the sun. Really worth watching!

 

All the astrological stuff mentioned in the Zeitgeist film concerning the New Testament is bullshit, just like this new take on the "Three Wise Men" narrative. The gospels are fashioned from sources in the Old Testament linking Jesus of Nazareth to other prophets. The two main sources consulted by the filmmakers were found to be bullshit.

 

There is a $1000 challenge to anyone who can find sources to support the information presented in that part of the film.

 

The source of the Horus/Jesus material was written in the 3rd century. Egypt was one of the centers of Christian learning at that time. I believe S. Achyria (sp) provided the information used in that portion-- her material was found to be incorrect.

 

As to the wall of text responding to my earlier post-- I have no desire to engage in a game of "I learned more at Seminary than you did." Like I said...I don't give a shit who disagrees with me when I have not stated anything incorrect. You should have spent that time doing something else.

[Sunya]

All the astrological stuff mentioned in the Zeitgeist film concerning the New Testament is bullshit, just like this new take on the "Three Wise Men" narrative. The gospels are fashioned from sources in the Old Testament linking Jesus of Nazareth to other prophets. The two main sources consulted by the filmmakers were found to be bullshit.

 

Sorry, but what are you talking about? What sources?

 

In the authors PDF, he lists many sources.

 

Proved to be bullshit by who? Where?

Edited December 29, 2010 by Sunya

[strawdog65]

All the astrological stuff mentioned in the Zeitgeist film concerning the New Testament is bullshit, just like this new take on the "Three Wise Men" narrative. The gospels are fashioned from sources in the Old Testament linking Jesus of Nazareth to other prophets. The two main sources consulted by the filmmakers were found to be bullshit.

 

There is a $1000 challenge to anyone who can find sources to support the information presented in that part of the film.

 

The source of the Horus/Jesus material was written in the 3rd century. Egypt was one of the centers of Christian learning at that time. I believe S. Achyria (sp) provided the information used in that portion-- her material was found to be incorrect.

 

As to the wall of text responding to my earlier post-- I have no desire to engage in a game of "I learned more at Seminary than you did." Like I said...I don't give a shit who disagrees with me when I have not stated anything incorrect. You should have spent that time doing something else.

 

 

Hi Prince!

 

Just because you were taught something does not prove something

to the contrary is incorrect.

The myth of a messiah goes back way before jesus or the old testament,

the messiah mythology is common to just about every cultural group

in the world.

 

How do you propose to prove that any astrological references are bs?

What evidence do you know of that takes into account the belief systems of

people prior to the time of "jesus", and what astrology and the stars meant

to them.

 

The heavens( The sky/stars) have been worshipped before any deity in the shape

of men. You can not disprove something that has more historical significance

than any story told of a man who may not have ever existed in the first place.

 

Prove to me that the old testament is anything more than a story.

Prove to me that the new testament is anything other than a newer story.

Prove to me that there ever was a jesus as depicted in the bible.

Prove to me that there is a god.

 

You can do none of the above.

Belief in what is false and stolen and purposely devised to control

the minds of the weak, will never amount to proof of any kind at all.

 

There is no historical record of jesus that is unassailable.

Proof of god rests with those who advocate the belief of such nonsense.

Which can never be proven because you have to believe.

What if I believed in the easter bunny?

 

Wake up and see the truth.

There is no god... there never was a jesus... and the story that is the bible

is the grandest piece of fiction ever told in the history of mankind.

 

The very saddest part is that there are people trapped into believing

the lies told to them as children.

 

It's called indoctrination.

[xenolith]

Hi Prince!

 

Just because you were taught something does not prove something

to the contrary is incorrect.

The myth of a messiah goes back way before jesus or the old testament,

the messiah mythology is common to just about every cultural group

in the world.

 

How do you propose to prove that any astrological references are bs?

What evidence do you know of that takes into account the belief systems of

people prior to the time of "jesus", and what astrology and the stars meant

to them.

 

The heavens( The sky/stars) have been worshipped before any deity in the shape

of men. You can not disprove something that has more historical significance

than any story told of a man who may not have ever existed in the first place.

 

Prove to me that the old testament is anything more than a story.

Prove to me that the new testament is anything other than a newer story.

Prove to me that there ever was a jesus as depicted in the bible.

Prove to me that there is a god.

 

You can do none of the above.

Belief in what is false and stolen and purposely devised to control

the minds of the weak, will never amount to proof of any kind at all.

 

There is no historical record of jesus that is unassailable.

Proof of god rests with those who advocate the belief of such nonsense.

Which can never be proven because you have to believe.

What if I believed in the easter bunny?

 

Wake up and see the truth.

There is no god... there never was a jesus... and the story that is the bible

is the grandest piece of fiction ever told in the history of mankind.

 

The very saddest part is that there are people trapped into believing

the lies told to them as children.

 

It's called indoctrination.

Most sincere appreciation to you strawdog for this contribution...it contains the most significant truth of any recent post on this forum that I'm aware of.

 

Please continue to share.

 

xeno

Edited December 29, 2010 by xenolith

[fiveelementtao]

Prince... Your biases are showing... If you are really serious about proving your point, you need to be able to back up what you are saying with more than just calling everything that contradicts church theology "bullshit."

.I don't give a shit who disagrees with me

Then why the angry, generalized, profanity laced naysaying with no evidence to back you up?

I think many here are interested in your views if you can present them with some reason and evidence.

Again I remind you, you came on this thread to call the OP bullshit. If you have credible, objective sources... share them...otherwise I don't see how profanity helps your position...

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi Prince!

 

Just because you were taught something does not prove something

to the contrary is incorrect.

The myth of a messiah goes back way before jesus or the old testament,

the messiah mythology is common to just about every cultural group

in the world.

 

How do you propose to prove that any astrological references are bs?

What evidence do you know of that takes into account the belief systems of

people prior to the time of "jesus", and what astrology and the stars meant

to them.

 

The heavens( The sky/stars) have been worshipped before any deity in the shape

of men. You can not disprove something that has more historical significance

than any story told of a man who may not have ever existed in the first place.

 

Prove to me that the old testament is anything more than a story.

Prove to me that the new testament is anything other than a newer story.

Prove to me that there ever was a jesus as depicted in the bible.

Prove to me that there is a god.

 

You can do none of the above.

Belief in what is false and stolen and purposely devised to control

the minds of the weak, will never amount to proof of any kind at all.

 

There is no historical record of jesus that is unassailable.

Proof of god rests with those who advocate the belief of such nonsense.

Which can never be proven because you have to believe.

What if I believed in the easter bunny?

 

Wake up and see the truth.

There is no god... there never was a jesus... and the story that is the bible

is the grandest piece of fiction ever told in the history of mankind.

 

The very saddest part is that there are people trapped into believing

the lies told to them as children.

 

It's called indoctrination.

 

This view is a little extreme.

 

I agree with most of it, but at the same time, I'm not sure that there wasn't a person named Jesus.

 

Can you explain the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library?

 

Just wondering if you can. I have no attachment to Jesus, even though I like what's recorded as his message.

 

I'm just wondering if you can explain away these texts?

[Sunya]

Can you explain the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library?

 

From the wiki of the dead sea scrolls:

 

Christian Origin Theory

While there are certainly some common characteristics shared between different Jewish sectarian groups, most scholars deny that there is any connection between the Christians and the authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls. There is little to suggest that the Christians at this time were as secluded or as interested in elaborate rituals of purity and chastity as the community that produced the Scrolls. Still, Spanish Jesuit Josep O'Callaghan-Martínez has argued that one fragment (7Q5) preserves a portion of text from the New Testament Gospel of Mark 6:52-53.[28] In recent years, Robert Eisenman has advanced the theory that some scrolls actually describe the early Christian community. Eisenman also attempted to relate the career of James the Just and the Apostle Paul / Saul of Tarsus to some of these documents.[29] This remains speculative and is rejected by an overwhelming majority of scholars studying Judaism in the early Roman period.

 

As for any Gnostic texts in the Nag Hammadi, I'm not aware of any that can be dated prior to 2nd century AD.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Sunya

[Vajrahridaya]

[Sunya]

All interesting, thank you.

 

Though the various gospels in the Nag Hammadi are compelling. I don't know if you've read them, but there are quite a few in there. It's a very large and interesting book. Who knows if they are written copies of pre-existing copies as well... originating prier to the 2nd century.

 

But, I really don't have any solid belief about the validity of Jesus either way. There is definitely truth to the teachings attributed to him though.

 

BTW I edited my post, the wiki on Historicity of Jesus is interesting, and I think the most compelling evidence is by Tacitus who did write about someone named 'Christius' being killed by the Romans. So, perhaps there is some evidence for a historical Jesus, and this only further proves my point that such a movement could not have existed without a real teacher. There is always some truth in myth.

 

No i haven't read any of the Nag Hammadi. Good stuff? All i know about the Essenes is that they are strangely similar to Samkhya in their world-view.

[Jetsun]

Same with Lau Tzu or any other ancient character.

 

The thing about the Buddha though, is there is attributed to him teachings and practices that lead to the direct realization of what is attributed to him.

 

So, you can actually experience first hand the validity of the words attributed to him, making them in fact your words... in your own way, but with the same gist, fire and inspiration.

 

He's the only one of the ancient "fire starters" that is attributed with 40 years of deep and clear teachings, on wisdom and methods to realizing directly the nature of his wisdom and methods. Not just parables or platitudes, poetry or repeatable sayings, but actual methods for deep and direct realization. 40 years worth from this one man! The Pali Cannon is huge! Also the earliest Mahayana texts are attributed to the same time as when the Pali Cannon was recorded, so... we have that to go on as well. It's actually quite epic, if one takes the time to step out of ones projections and take up the time to read them.

 

This is what gives the Buddha more credence in my book.

 

But... to each their own as their own self (inter-subjectively influenced self) created process dictates.

 

Peace!

 

If you read Gurdjieff he says that the original Christianity was one of the best paths to enlightenment that ever existed on the planet and he studied Buddhism in Tibet for some time too. Unfortunately most of what's left are scraps or distortions, for example each child was given a guru to tutor them spiritually which is where the term "God father" comes from, which is now lost from the tradition. Also the purpose of saying grace before meals was to serve as a reminder to eat with self awareness so that you consciously assimilate your food which naturally develops an attitude of gratitude. Unfortunately most of the actual methods to develop have been lost.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Jetsun

[Vajrahridaya]

 

No i haven't read any of the Nag Hammadi. Good stuff? All i know about the Essenes is that they are strangely similar to Samkhya in their world-view.

 

Yes, I've read both the Dead Sea Scrolls and Nag Hammadi. I found the Nag Hammadi far more interesting for some reason at the time, which was about 15 to 16 years ago.

 

Certain texts are just Gnostic ideas of creation which are akin to some of the ideas in Buddhism starting at lower levels in the 31 planes, which gives them validity in the sense that they are more concerned with the path to long lived god realms and not Buddhist Nirvana. The Apocryphons and Gospels are all very interesting in their similarity to the style of the gospels in the new testament, while sometimes even being more clear to the point of "inner divinity" that the New Age interpreters of the NT are all on about.

 

I'm not saying they are anywhere as clean and clear, nor are they as profound as what we can readily find through Buddhism, but they are definitely interesting and at the time, when I was into Eternalist Theism, they were very inspiring for me.

 

p.s.

 

Your edits are noted.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

If you read Gurdjieff he says that the original Christianity was one of the best paths to enlightenment that ever existed on the planet and he studied Buddhism in Tibet for some time too. Unfortunately most of what's left are scraps or distortions, for example each child was given a guru to tutor them spiritually which is where the term "God father" comes from, which is now lost from the tradition. Also the purpose of saying grace before meals was to serve as a reminder to eat with self awareness so that you consciously assimilate your food which naturally develops an attitude of gratitude. Unfortunately most of the actual methods to develop have been lost.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Gurdgieff in the sense that I don't think he understood Buddhism directly at all. It really doesn't matter if someone studies anything, it's if he/she gets it or not.

 

But, I'm a fan of his humanity and his desire for truth! I just don't find his insights as deep as others might.

 

But, whatever inspires you to evolve from where you are at is what you need! I'm also not saying my opinion will never change either.

 

But, thank you.

[Sunya]

If you read Gurdjieff he says that the original Christianity was one of the best paths to enlightenment that ever existed on the planet

 

Didn't he live in the 20th century? How would he possibly know what original Christianity was like?

[Vajrahridaya]

Didn't he live in the 20th century? How would he possibly know what original Christianity was like?

 

I was going to say the same thing, though I don't know the depth of his personal spiritual experience. But he did seem quite attracted to Eternalist Theism which in my opinion is a very deep obstacle between understanding Buddhadharma or not, regardless of how much study you have of it under your belt.

[Jetsun]

Didn't he live in the 20th century? How would he possibly know what original Christianity was like?

 

He was a seeker who penetrated into many hidden esoteric teachings and documents and he talks about how men of real knowledge knew their teachings would be corrupted so they create what is called a legominism which is a piece of work or art with a lawful inexactitude contained within it which indicates the hidden important teaching within something so real seekers will have the possibility of finding the real meaning behind it.

 

Also there are some methods which I have heard of like accessing ancient thought streams, contacting dead masters and accessing previous lives to give you information, but I have no experience of this myself. I guess you can't ever know for sure if what Gurdjieff says about Christianity is true but if you apply fourth way teachings and understanding to reading the Bible it opens a whole new world which feels more real and genuine than most traditional interpretations.

[Vajrahridaya]

Also there are some methods which I have heard of like accessing ancient thought streams, contacting dead masters and accessing previous lives to give you information, but I have no experience of this myself. I guess you can't ever know for sure if what Gurdjieff says about Christianity is true but if you apply fourth way teachings and understanding to reading the Bible it opens a whole new world which feels more real and genuine than most traditional interpretations.

 

I do agree, and do have experience with this, which is why I hesitated in saying what Sunya said.

 

None the less... it seems that he was quite attracted to what I stated above this post. I still respect those that seek deeply, no matter their inclination for Theism which I find is an interpretive block.

[Vajrahridaya]

He was a seeker who penetrated into many hidden esoteric teachings and documents and he talks about how men of real knowledge knew their teachings would be corrupted so they create what is called a legominism which is a piece of work or art with a lawful inexactitude contained within it which indicates the hidden important teaching within something so real seekers will have the possibility of finding the real meaning behind it.

 

I think the Buddha differs in that he was so unmistakably clear and repetitive, with many, many enlightened disciples to carry on his words, leaving no room for misinterpretation. He is unique in this sense when it comes to historical teachers.

 

Of course the power of individuals to misinterpret sacred teachings is quite amazing!

[Jetsun]

I think the Buddha differs in that he was so unmistakably clear and repetitive, with many, many enlightened disciples to carry on his words, leaving no room for misinterpretation. He is unique in this sense when it comes to historical teachers.

 

Of course the power of individuals to misinterpret sacred teachings is quite amazing!

 

I think what Gurdjieff essentially teaches is the same thing as the Buddha, I think some of his criticisms of Buddhism were stated with the direct purpose to get you to question deeply and sincerely everything and not to become fixed or rest on anything or dogmatic about any position. But it is natural for Buddhism to have become corrupted just like everything else, the example Gurdjieff gives is that he found monasteries where people were locked up in small cells alone for almost their entire lives to meditate and to him this felt completely unnatural and against human nature as well as against the original teachings of "saint Buddha" as he calls him.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Jetsun

[manitou]

\

Edited December 29, 2010 by manitou

[strawdog65]

This view is a little extreme.

 

I agree with most of it, but at the same time, I'm not sure that there wasn't a person named Jesus.

 

Can you explain the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hammadi Library?

 

Just wondering if you can. I have no attachment to Jesus, even though I like what's recorded as his message.

 

I'm just wondering if you can explain away these texts?

 

 

Hi Vaj!

 

I hope you are doing and feeling better.

 

I do believe there was a person named jesus, it was a common name afterall.

I am entirely skeptical of a man named jesus that is attributed to have done

miraculous things. All mythology has the appropriate miraculous doings of

said messiah figure. A jesus yes... a jesus that was a messiah? Doubt it.

 

I am not an expert on any of the scripture( dead sea scrolls/ Nag Hammadi)

I claim no information other than is available to all of us equally.

 

The teachings proclaimed to be from a man named jesus, are worthy,

meaningful teachings. Who is to say that they were not adopted from

an earlier philosophy and belief system such as Tao? The philosophy

of Tao and treatment of man within mankind, has precedents that

predate any christian belief system.

 

Teachings that hold "true" are common in most cultures,

the only thing that changes is whom they have been attributed to.

When It's something that feels inherently true inside of

us then it is usually a common thread to most philosophies.

 

Saying that jesus was the one that said these things and imposing the

distinction that somehow he was the originator of this philosophy,

belies an attitude that somehow these were "hidden" truths and it took

jesus to bring them out.

 

I find this idea to be ludicrous.

 

I have more belief in the common man then most I guess. There will always

be ideas that "feel" true to us and speak to us and our heart of hearts.

These ideas speak to us and feel "true" because we inherently feel that

this is the right way to treat someone, or some situation.

 

The ideas and philosophy attributed to all great figures throughout history

lives inside of each of us, and we see the clues of this when we read or hear

something and that light bulb goes off in our minds and it just clicks, and we

say eureka! That eureka moment is your own awareness telling you this is the

most natural and inherently virtuous path, the designation of it being a "truth"

is just a signpost leading us in the right direction.

 

We just have to listen and be who and what we are meant to be.

 

And if the three wise men were Taoists.... maybe they should be the

ones we should be thanking for the wisdom of the jesus figure.

That is IF any of this really happened to begin with....

 

Peace!

[Simple_Jack]

.

Edited February 5, 2014 by Simple_Jack

[Immortal4life]

fiveelementtao awesome thread! thank you for this. Its very interesting.

 

The truth is, someone somewhere could make a case that any text thousands of years old is just science fiction or so called bullshit.

 

The Story of Troy comes to mind for me, thought to be only a myth, ancient science fiction....until it was found!