The Enlightened Sage

[三江源]

.

Edited October 26, 2015 by 三江源

[manitou]

May I add a poem I wrote a while back and just happened upon? It seems to fit right here in this discussion.

 

RIGHT ACTION

 

We walk through many doors

searching for definition of the Undefineable.

We love the Bible,

The Baghavad Gita,

The Tao Te Ching.

 

We get dunked, saved,

and swarmed by Passionate Praying People.

We tearfully lay bare our souls at alter calls.

We cling to the words of others,

Jesus, Yogi Ramacharaka, Annie Besant, Lao Tzu

Yearning for definition;

the ever elusive definition and measurement.

It's there and yet it's not there.

 

But some have found Understanding through Action.

If you are homeless and dirty

perhaps one of us will stop to chat

so you may feel more human.

 

If you are rich and well-heeled

perhaps we will approach you without jealousy.

If you are great and famous

we will love you anyway, although your brilliant essence

only serves to showcase our own inadequacies.

 

If we must take difficult action

or do something you will dislike, we will try to do it gently,

always considering your tender heart.

We will look at you through the eyes of our soul

and try to see where you stand on your path

knowing that we can expect no more from you

than you are capable of giving.

 

We will not always expect you to keep your word

if you past actions show us otherswise.

We must be a bit wiser and understand that

we have been let down only by our own foolish expectations.

 

We who try to be true to Right Action

understand what the real challenges of life are,

And that here the true Journey begins.

 

(Barbara Ortega)

Edited December 27, 2010 by manitou

[TheJourney]

^ well said!

[suninmyeyes]

 

 

 

Normally, I no longer dream. Or if I do, I no longer remember them. I wish I could. But on three occasions within the last year a strange thing has happened. Twice I've awakened in the morning being aware that I have been reading ancient scrolls in my dream. The scrolls are close to my face, and the words in the scroll flash in front of my eyes, much like the streamer on CNN. I recognize the words, but the part of my brain that can string the words into an understandable sentence is not awake, apparently. This has happened twice, the ancient scrolls. Yesterday I woke up reading not an ancient scroll but a college textbook about something very heady. Again, I remember understanding each and every word (and they were lengthy and academic words in the textbook) but not being able to attach them together into an understandable sentence. In other words, I think the information is getting into my psyche in some fashion, but not with my cohesive awareness.

 

Has anyone experienced anything similar? I say this because of the mention of someone in the thread that one can't become enlightened unless certain things are read, certain truths are known. For those of us who utilize the Sage as our model, and do so earnestly, we haven't studied these particular works mentioned which are necessary for enlightenment (according to some). However, the Sage possesses the three treasures of 'Never Too Much', 'Never be the First', and 'Love'. By reading, studying, and internalizing the Tao Te Ching, is it not possible to develop these three treasures? Is this that different from the concepts of Buddhism that may get you to the same place? To walk around in the mindset of the above three treasures would create a balance that is perfect.

 

The Tao Te Ching is all about how to live life in the most spiritually expedient fashion, the way that works for the utmost balance. If one has gotten to the point where they are truly 'Never the First', there is no anxiety about getting somewhere on time, of feeling that there isn't enough time to do something. If they have internalized the concept of 'Never Too Much', the pig within us has been contained. And selfishness is overriden by Love, if we purge our personality of the selfishnesses that stand in the way of clarity. The Sage can get to the point where he loves others AS himself. He knows that the other IS himself.

Hello Mrs Manitou!

Have you considered your dream to maybe be a memory?

I dont know what is taoist stand on past lives and wherther you personally believe in them.

But in my opinion there is a lot of remeberances in dreams(as well as posibillity of OBEs and learning in different dimesions ,as we are multidimensional beings ).This is more prone to happen or be noticed once most of lifes likes and dislikes are dissolved and some spaceoussness is reclaimed.

I cant remeber ever dreaming scriptures but have had multidimensional expirience and OBE where I learnt something,gained deeper sort of understanding.

Anyway I am growing to like and learning a lot about Taoisam through you guys on here.And like your Sage with three tresures"Never too much","Never be the first" and "Love".It seems very relaxed and non imposing.I like anything relaxing.

[manitou]

I hadn't considered that the dreams are a memory - maybe they are. It would be just like me to spend a lifetime pouring over scrolls and being happy as a pig in mud. But either way, I do have a sense of inputting into my psyche, and the words seem to be only about a foot from my eyes in the dreams. It feels like I'm in a cosmic library of sorts. Wish I consciously knew what all this stuff says. I'll bet it's in there subconsciously and that it's been retained from the dream or re-emerging from the past life memory. It's just odd.

[Vajrahridaya]

[Vajrahridaya]

I really don’t get the fixation on the historical Buddha either, or on that particular monastic, Theravadin, flavour of Buddhism. I think it is incompatible with the western psyche and modern life, most people I know like booze and sex. Which maybe explains the popularity with Tibetan Buddhism, colour, dance, eccentric masters and so on - Anatta can be fun apparently.

 

From my understanding of the later developments in Buddhism, conceptual knowledge was regarded as a hindrance to awakening. Naropa spent years with his guru Tilopa, trying to unravel all his conceptual knots, all that study had left him uptight. So the Kagyu lineage traces its teachings back to a mad man who used to eat fish guts on the Ganges -awesome. Tilopa sounds like a Taoist to me:

 

1 Don’t recall

2 Don’t imagine

3 Don’t think

4 Don’t examine

5 Don’t control

6 Rest

 

Well, the historical Buddha also taught Mahayana! Which Vajrayana is thuroughly based upon. There are also instances of "crazy wisdom" in the Pali Suttas.

 

Anyway... yes...

 

It seems that Taoism is quite in conjunction with much of Vajrayana... though I don't know for sure? I've only experienced this possibility through reading stuff on here.

 

Guru Padmasambhava said, "Even though your View is as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour".

 

Though, this I think is quite important. Because in Vajrayana, enlightenment is not the end all be all. You still learn tools for expression so that you can take these teachings on with you and teach eternally. There is no goal per say in this sense, there is just remaining in the enlightened state, control (not in the grasping sense, but rather just have clear awareness) where you go after the death of each manifestation and continue expressing enlightenment wherever you may go Eternally. I have not seen this emphasis in any other tradition of "what do you do after enlightenment?" At least not to the degree of refined expression as in Vajrayana or Mahayana?

 

Mahayana (which includes Vajrayana and Dzogchen) goes into so much depth of other realms, enlightened rebirth, transcending heaven realms, staying conscious through endless rebirths... etc.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Kali Yuga]

Personally I'm at the point where most dicussion on this forum is meaningless; most of it is just blah blah blah except for a few things every now and then.

 

The buddha equals trash to me. I take a crap on all the religous icons and figures of the world whether it be jesus, buddha, gandhi etc.

 

It does not MATTER what Buddha said or what they did. Almost all argument here on this forum is irrelevant. It is masturbation.

 

I respect jesus, buddha etc only as so much as launching points for a way to true self discovery. After that they really are like my urinal, my toilet. Couldn't care less.

 

Why would I care what the Buddha said? Why would I care what anyone said?

 

When you are a true bird when you are kicked out of your nest you will certainly fly. A true bird does not need flight school.

 

When we make somtething sacred; we cling to it. We create our own pain and suffering. Most of us are not strong enough to be true eagles. We refuse to burn our own bridges. we refuse to burn our books. we refuse and cling to that which we think is true. we're so afraid of discovering more, we cling to that which we really shouldn't.

 

 

 

 

YOU ARE NOT A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE!

 

 

YOU ARE NOT your "lineage"!

 

 

YOU ARE NOT the words you speak!

 

 

 

 

A beginner or a person who has not explored the depthness and intricacies of the mystical path will always adhere to a certain dogma and argue for one thing over the other incessantly. Vajrayana, no! Taoist! no! Jesus! Any true master will at some point upheave and turn and walk his own path and disgrace and forsake everything up to that point. Beginners are stuck on dogma and what is and what isn't.

 

You have to take a look at the people whose paths you are following. Christianity. Jesus would piss on everything and get crucified all over again if he only saw what we did with his supposed "teachings". He was against all the stuff we continue. It is so ironic that we are following those who were the rebels; but we ourselves are not strong enough to do what they did.

 

ALL true masters were nonconformists. They all broke all the rules and they didn't give a damn. The Buddha mastered several different traditions and felt in his gut it all wasn't enough. You see, to him it wasn't about what one master said over another. It was that which was within himself which told him that there was something more. Did he listen to his previous paths, masters and lineages babble on about what they thought? No. He cut ties and did his own thing.

 

I have to laugh at people who espouse certain teaching over other teachings; they miss the point entirely. All true masters make their own paths; and those who are not strong or resilient enough, end up repeating everything that they say like sheep. Its funny when you see this from a certain perspective, because mostly everyone starts to look like little children arguing about whose toy is better.

 

A true master will throw out the book and just wing it upon reaching a certain point. Hell, the buddha did it, why don't you? I have to laugh at people saying it's this or it's that.

 

It's only the noobs that are the bookies; the beginners are the ones who are always stuck on that which can be summed up in words. You have your cultists, your priests, anyone who labels himself anything, or attaches himself to a dogma or creed. Only sheep follow masters.

 

To be a true surfer of the realms of the formless, YOU HAVE TO LET GO OF WORDS. You burn your books and burn and piss on every single thing you know. You have to let it all slide away. You naturally stop caring who is right; you stop arguing one point over another. You simply don't care anymore.

 

 

 

 

 

Your truth becomes that which is unspoken, because to the one who truly sees, that which is spoken is worthless compared to that which is not.

[TheJourney]

I like what you said about speaking their language so they can be happy with their own interpretation rather than try to convince them of anything. Most of us think that we're just one step away from the truth usually if you think about it, so if we can tell them the next logical step and let them find their truth then that is great. No one needs to see it like me. I just want them to see it.

Edited December 28, 2010 by TheJourney

[C T]

Personally I'm at the point where most dicussion on this forum is meaningless; most of it is just blah blah blah except for a few things every now and then.

 

The buddha equals trash to me. I take a crap on all the religous icons and figures of the world whether it be jesus, buddha, gandhi etc.

 

It does not MATTER what Buddha said or what they did. Almost all argument here on this forum is irrelevant. It is masturbation.

 

I respect jesus, buddha etc only as so much as launching points for a way to true self discovery. After that they really are like my urinal, my toilet. Couldn't care less.

 

Why would I care what the Buddha said? Why would I care what anyone said?

 

When you are a true bird when you are kicked out of your nest you will certainly fly. A true bird does not need flight school.

 

When we make somtething sacred; we cling to it. We create our own pain and suffering. Most of us are not strong enough to be true eagles. We refuse to burn our own bridges. we refuse to burn our books. we refuse and cling to that which we think is true. we're so afraid of discovering more, we cling to that which we really shouldn't.

 

 

 

 

YOU ARE NOT A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE!

 

 

YOU ARE NOT your "lineage"!

 

 

YOU ARE NOT the words you speak!

 

 

 

 

A beginner or a person who has not explored the depthness and intricacies of the mystical path will always adhere to a certain dogma and argue for one thing over the other incessantly. Vajrayana, no! Taoist! no! Jesus! Any true master will at some point upheave and turn and walk his own path and disgrace and forsake everything up to that point. Beginners are stuck on dogma and what is and what isn't.

 

You have to take a look at the people whose paths you are following. Christianity. Jesus would piss on everything and get crucified all over again if he only saw what we did with his supposed "teachings". He was against all the stuff we continue. It is so ironic that we are following those who were the rebels; but we ourselves are not strong enough to do what they did.

 

ALL true masters were nonconformists. They all broke all the rules and they didn't give a damn. The Buddha mastered several different traditions and felt in his gut it all wasn't enough. You see, to him it wasn't about what one master said over another. It was that which was within himself which told him that there was something more. Did he listen to his previous paths, masters and lineages babble on about what they thought? No. He cut ties and did his own thing.

 

I have to laugh at people who espouse certain teaching over other teachings; they miss the point entirely. All true masters make their own paths; and those who are not strong or resilient enough, end up repeating everything that they say like sheep. Its funny when you see this from a certain perspective, because mostly everyone starts to look like little children arguing about whose toy is better.

 

A true master will throw out the book and just wing it upon reaching a certain point. Hell, the buddha did it, why don't you? I have to laugh at people saying it's this or it's that.

 

It's only the noobs that are the bookies; the beginners are the ones who are always stuck on that which can be summed up in words. You have your cultists, your priests, anyone who labels himself anything, or attaches himself to a dogma or creed. Only sheep follow masters.

 

To be a true surfer of the realms of the formless, YOU HAVE TO LET GO OF WORDS. You burn your books and burn and piss on every single thing you know. You have to let it all slide away. You naturally stop caring who is right; you stop arguing one point over another. You simply don't care anymore.

 

 

 

 

 

Your truth becomes that which is unspoken, because to the one who truly sees, that which is spoken is worthless compared to that which is not.

I am curious... is this the same attitude you have for your parents?

[Starjumper]

I have to laugh at people who espouse certain teaching over other teachings; they miss the point entirely. All true masters make their own paths; and those who are not strong or resilient enough, end up repeating everything that they say like sheep. Its funny when you see this from a certain perspective, because mostly everyone starts to look like little children arguing about whose toy is better.

 

A true master will throw out the book and just wing it upon reaching a certain point. Hell, the buddha did it, why don't you? I have to laugh at people saying it's this or it's that.

 

Taoism, being brilliant, as usual, has the best built in safeguards against such things, which is why it is said: The sage teaches without speaking.

 

They teach the

 

PRACTICE

 

SILENTLY

 

and they never tell you what to think or try to influence you in that way.

 

They just want to know what you think, and then they go "Wow, you cwazy" silently to themselves. Kidding, they can hear all your thoughts, and trust me, they reeeelly don't want to know. Wizard's burden ... comes with benefits.

[TheJourney]

The truth is that there is no good and bad, there simply is what is. If you truly want to say you understand you must understand that, since there is no good and bad, I must simply do what I want to do. If you refrain from doing something that just means someone else is going to do it. It doesn't make sense to live in any other way than just flowing along doing what seems right. As he said, people arguing about whose truth is better is rediculous. It's like. Who cares?

[adept]

Personally I'm at the point where most dicussion on this forum is meaningless; most of it is just blah blah blah except for a few things every now and then.

 

The buddha equals trash to me. I take a crap on all the religous icons and figures of the world whether it be jesus, buddha, gandhi etc.

 

It does not MATTER what Buddha said or what they did. Almost all argument here on this forum is irrelevant. It is masturbation.

 

I respect jesus, buddha etc only as so much as launching points for a way to true self discovery. After that they really are like my urinal, my toilet. Couldn't care less.

 

Why would I care what the Buddha said? Why would I care what anyone said?

 

When you are a true bird when you are kicked out of your nest you will certainly fly. A true bird does not need flight school.

 

When we make somtething sacred; we cling to it. We create our own pain and suffering. Most of us are not strong enough to be true eagles. We refuse to burn our own bridges. we refuse to burn our books. we refuse and cling to that which we think is true. we're so afraid of discovering more, we cling to that which we really shouldn't.

 

 

 

 

YOU ARE NOT A SPECIAL SNOWFLAKE!

 

 

YOU ARE NOT your "lineage"!

 

 

YOU ARE NOT the words you speak!

 

 

 

 

A beginner or a person who has not explored the depthness and intricacies of the mystical path will always adhere to a certain dogma and argue for one thing over the other incessantly. Vajrayana, no! Taoist! no! Jesus! Any true master will at some point upheave and turn and walk his own path and disgrace and forsake everything up to that point. Beginners are stuck on dogma and what is and what isn't.

 

You have to take a look at the people whose paths you are following. Christianity. Jesus would piss on everything and get crucified all over again if he only saw what we did with his supposed "teachings". He was against all the stuff we continue. It is so ironic that we are following those who were the rebels; but we ourselves are not strong enough to do what they did.

 

ALL true masters were nonconformists. They all broke all the rules and they didn't give a damn. The Buddha mastered several different traditions and felt in his gut it all wasn't enough. You see, to him it wasn't about what one master said over another. It was that which was within himself which told him that there was something more. Did he listen to his previous paths, masters and lineages babble on about what they thought? No. He cut ties and did his own thing.

 

I have to laugh at people who espouse certain teaching over other teachings; they miss the point entirely. All true masters make their own paths; and those who are not strong or resilient enough, end up repeating everything that they say like sheep. Its funny when you see this from a certain perspective, because mostly everyone starts to look like little children arguing about whose toy is better.

 

A true master will throw out the book and just wing it upon reaching a certain point. Hell, the buddha did it, why don't you? I have to laugh at people saying it's this or it's that.

 

It's only the noobs that are the bookies; the beginners are the ones who are always stuck on that which can be summed up in words. You have your cultists, your priests, anyone who labels himself anything, or attaches himself to a dogma or creed. Only sheep follow masters.

 

To be a true surfer of the realms of the formless, YOU HAVE TO LET GO OF WORDS. You burn your books and burn and piss on every single thing you know. You have to let it all slide away. You naturally stop caring who is right; you stop arguing one point over another. You simply don't care anymore.

 

 

 

 

 

Your truth becomes that which is unspoken, because to the one who truly sees, that which is spoken is worthless compared to that which is not.

 

What an excellent post.

This is one of the best pieces I've read on here. I'm gonna print it out and read it frequently.

Unfortunately, most folks on these forums will probably have a go at you for writing this.

I most certainly won't. Thank you

[manitou]

Kali - I think your post was masterful, albeit a little in yer face. But it did indicate a bit of frustration with the mental masturbation we like to do around here. Please do check in more often. You sound like you are a true warrior who can cut through the baloney instantaneously. Your input would be valuable.

Yes, there is a lot of blah blah blah. I'm at a point in my life where we're retired and I have the time to check in a few times a day. The blah blah blah keeps me sane because I live in the bible belt.

Your avatar is quite powerful!

[3bob]

"Three men were walking through the desert. They were lost and about to die from thirst and hunger. They come to a very high wall and the first one climbs up, shouts for joy and jumps over the wall never to return. The next man climbs up the wall and he too, exclaims in ecstasy, jumps off the wall and never comes back. Now the third man climbs up the wall. He gets to the top and sees a sort of Garden of Eden place with water and lots of fruit trees. He smiles, turns, goes back down the wall, returning to the desert to help others find their way to this paradise. He chooses to go back into the desert of the world and help others find their way."

 

For the third man knew in his gut that there was something more.

 

Om

[manitou]

3bob, what an insightful story. Good vision on your part.

 

This goes to the heart of what the upwards evolution is about. Yes, it's wonderful to finally find The Garden of Eden place. But I think the sage would not be the one going over the wall and jumping for joy; he instead would be concerned about his brothers who hadn't found their way yet. Yes, he would stay behind because he wouldn't be able to live with himself if he made it all about just him and his own happiness.

[3bob]

3bob, what an insightful story. Good vision on your part.

 

This goes to the heart of what the upwards evolution is about. Yes, it's wonderful to finally find The Garden of Eden place. But I think the sage would not be the one going over the wall and jumping for joy; he instead would be concerned about his brothers who hadn't found their way yet. Yes, he would stay behind because he wouldn't be able to live with himself if he made it all about just him and his own happiness.

 

Thanks Manitou,

 

Yes, some are cut out to be that "third" man/woman who help us in dealing with the world, although imo not everyone since they to may have helped at other times or in other ways that are not commonly known and then taken their leave.

 

Om

[Starjumper]

3bob, what an insightful story. Good vision on your part.

 

This goes to the heart of what the upwards evolution is about. Yes, it's wonderful to finally find The Garden of Eden place. But I think the sage would not be the one going over the wall and jumping for joy; he instead would be concerned about his brothers who hadn't found their way yet. Yes, he would stay behind because he wouldn't be able to live with himself if he made it all about just him and his own happiness.

 

Sages are unpredictable, it could go either way or both at the same time. Lao Tzu looked around and he thought to himself: "Fork this BS, fork them, they're all a bunch of idiots, I'm outa here." He already knew that his words, so carefully crafted to avoid fundamentalism, was only worded well enough for a few.

 

The sage, happily lost in the wilderness, you have to find him. Where's Waldo?

Edited December 28, 2010 by Starjumper7

[Vajrahridaya]

Edited December 29, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

The truth is that there is no good and bad, there simply is what is. If you truly want to say you understand you must understand that, since there is no good and bad, I must simply do what I want to do. If you refrain from doing something that just means someone else is going to do it. It doesn't make sense to live in any other way than just flowing along doing what seems right. As he said, people arguing about whose truth is better is rediculous. It's like. Who cares?

 

But, do you know where you are going at death?

 

Also, there is still ahimsa (doing no harm).

 

Enlightenment is transcendent of the virtues, but is reflected through them. The classic virtues are like the christmas ornaments without a tree, but still shining for all to see regardless. As they are the lights that help others understand with more clarity, the deep goodness of an enlightened and liberated mind.

 

Even though that mind is liberated and free from being virtuous at the same time.

[xabir2005]

This is something I have seen claimed quite a few times.Now how do you know what gurus ,pundits or auntie Doris that lives across the road have seen/had insight of in general?

If you had those insights yourself, then you will be able to recognise it when someone else explains their experience.

 

I don't know about Andrew, but Ken Wilber has very genuine experiential description that don't leave much room for doubt that he has genuine non-dual realisation.

 

However, it is not yet the insight of emptiness.

[Kali Yuga]

I am curious... is this the same attitude you have for your parents?

There will not be left here one stone upon another that will not be thrown down.

 

Let me put it this way; love that which you can, while you can, as much as you can. But if you cling to that which has been taken away from you, you feel pain. Thus, do not cling.

 

Great truths more often than not, are also great paradoxes.

 

What an excellent post.

This is one of the best pieces I've read on here. I'm gonna print it out and read it frequently.

Unfortunately, most folks on these forums will probably have a go at you for writing this.

I most certainly won't. Thank you

 

 

Kali - I think your post was masterful, albeit a little in yer face. But it did indicate a bit of frustration with the mental masturbation we like to do around here. Please do check in more often. You sound like you are a true warrior who can cut through the baloney instantaneously. Your input would be valuable.

Yes, there is a lot of blah blah blah. I'm at a point in my life where we're retired and I have the time to check in a few times a day. The blah blah blah keeps me sane because I live in the bible belt.

Your avatar is quite powerful!

My pleasure. Mixing things up is good sometimes; sometimes a good whack opens ones eyes. A good teacher will always give you a good whack when you need it and when you least expect it. Well, its either that or watching sesame street.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

ALL true masters were nonconformists. They all broke all the rules and they didn't give a damn. The Buddha mastered several different traditions and felt in his gut it all wasn't enough. You see, to him it wasn't about what one master said over another. It was that which was within himself which told him that there was something more. Did he listen to his previous paths, masters and lineages babble on about what they thought? No. He cut ties and did his own thing.

 

 

I used to think like this... then I got humble.

 

There is some goodness in this attitude, and I think every sage has to go through this kind of breaking away from whatever is "popular culture" internally, but at the same time, it can be very self deluding and self aggrandizing. It can be an intellectual or emotional excuse that just leads to lots of trouble if taken up without true insight. I'm not saying "it is" in any black and white sense either, but there is that possibility.

 

This attitude can also be another type of limitation, as if all Masters are counter culture? As you said, "All" masters... and I disagree with this idea of, "all" masters are non-conformists. Sure from one point of view, yes... they don't conform to limited views, but I think you're stating a limiting view of what enlightenment is and isn't. Plenty of Masters absolutely are not counter culture and are gentle and yielding and not extreme with their "crazy wisdom."

 

Humility is key and opens one to the possibility that maybe you are wrong and that your experiences or insights are originating dependent upon a wrong view or more aptly an extreme view.

 

p.s.

 

Also, the Buddha said that he was just here to re-establish an ancient path. He didn't say that he was here, "starting his own thing." Buddhism is actually a path that pre-existed the Buddha and he was merely re-kindling it. This is stated by him in the Pali Suttas. It's good to know what the content of the books are that you are pissing on before you piss on them, otherwise you are burning words that you haven't even read and understood yet.

Edited December 29, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[3bob]

"...then I got humble..."

[Jetsun]

Ken Wilber does say some really interesting things about where psychology and spirituality fit in but when you examine his spiritual philosophy closely he believes in some form of evolution in enlightenment, but the only other people who seem to go along with this view is Andrew Cohen and a guru they initially endorsed as evidence of this Ali Da (or Da Free John or whatever he named himself). Ali Da was known to say that he had reached a higher level than Jesus Christ and other masters like the Buddha while Ken and Andrew seemed to go along with it and agree with him for a while in a nice circle jerk, until a lot of abuse by Ali Da came out in the press as he set himself up as a self proclaimed god in a paranoid isolated ashram, so they tried to distance themselves from him a bit, but they seem to have kept this belief that the masters in the future will be more enlightened than the ones in the past despite the Guru they endorsed turning out to be a "fuck up" (Wilbers words)