The Enlightened Sage

[Vajrahridaya]

According to you, the Buddhas are the only enlightened ones! Therefor, everyone else falls short. Your legalistic view is no different than the average fundamentalist preacher.

 

Yes, only Buddhas are enlightened ralis, this doesn't include you.

 

Or me for that matter, as merely a poorly developed Buddhist.

 

Yes, it's true, I'm a fundamentalist! But, very unlike the Christian fundies... the truth is in the details, which you seem to not have a mind for anyway... so it's kind of useless talking them out with you as your ability to misunderstand everything I say is paramount.

 

 

But, I will say this, this Buddha said, "My Bodhisattvas will manifest in other traditions."

 

So there you have it, even according to my fundamentalist view, there is hope for other spiritual traditions as highly enlightened individuals will manifest through them to help people come closer to the Dharma.

[TheJourney]

/

Edited December 27, 2010 by TheJourney

[TheJourney]

I like this posting very much is finally good to see that people are questioning the so-called masters or the so-called truth and not excepting that teachings hold the answers?

 

I find this to interesting because I came to my understanding of mind state and the connection to reality a very different way it was not the spiritual path in the beginning, but the path of observation with the non-attachment and on non-judgement and without the contamination preconceived and believed teachings concepts and expectations, is only now I understand the complexity diversity and the essence my lessons thus so far I have allowed myself to look at what people are using seeking for the understanding of their search?

 

Because if you believe you have found the thing you looking for and are teaching or religious beliefs that suits you, that's all good and wonderful, but if you truly seek the truth I mean the essence of what these teachings and teaches have found?

 

Because as I've seen in my journey people teaches have truly found something that only a part and then hang on to that part as a divine truth cultivated quantified, then become stuck in it as a divine truth?

 

So what I'm saying is if you become stuck in belief practice an idea on hold this to be the divine truth you become trapped and unable to be go beyond your beliefs or the beliefs of the teachings or religion,

 

so thus remain trapped in idealisation and are able to think outside of the proverbial box because you're beliefs and the limitations doesn't allow for growth thus trapped in the belief in what you have found to be the complete truth, so sometimes teachings are away to understand your path your journey and sometimes they will keep you from your journey because until you learn to stop quantifying judging and labelling what you seek? You may become trapped in your interpretation or someone's else's interpretation

.

 

This. exactly. Personally I think the buddha discussed with his disciples about these higher truths, which people had a hard time understanding. So he spoke to them in a way which would eventually lead them to the truth, but was really not the highest truth. His harder to understand ideas may not have been so publicized.

[Simple_Jack]

Replying to suninmyeyes and 3bob here: Yes you can definitely verify if someone is enlightened. Hell, Zen master Yen-Shou (In his book The Source Mirror/ Tsung Chin Lu which hasn't been translated into English) came up with 10 questions of how to verify if someone is enlightened

 

I'm going to take this straight out of Working Toward Enlightenment by Nan Huai Chin: "The Source Mirror tells us what enlightenment means. In the book, ten questions are raised. There are no enlightened people who have not mastered the scriptural teachings. They know all the principles of the Buddhist scriptures at one glance. For them reading the scriptures is like reading a novel: They understand everything as soon as they read it, and they do not have to study them in depth. Zen master Yen-Shou's Source Mirror says this in Volume 1: Suppose there are people who stubbornly cling to their own views, who do not believe the words of the Buddha, who create attitudes that block them, and who cut off other routes of study. For their sake I will now discuss ten questions in order to firmly establish the guiding principles.

 

First question: When we completely see true nature as plainly as we see colors in broad daylight, are we the same as bodhisattvas like Manjushri?

 

Second question: When we can clearly understand the source in everything, as we encounter situations and face objects, as we see form and hear sound, as we raise and lower our feet, as we open and close our eyes, are we in accord with the path?

 

Third question: When we read through the teachings of Buddha for our era contained in the Buddhist canon, and the sayings of all the Zen masters since antiquity, and we hear their profundities without becoming afraid, do we always get accurate understanding and have no doubts?

 

Fourth question: When people pose difficult differentiating questins to us, and press us with all sorts of probing inquiries, are we able to respond with the four forms of eloquence, and resolve all their doubts?

 

Fifth question: Does your wisdom shine unhindered at all times in all places, with perfect penetration from moment to moment, not encountering any phenomenon that can obstruct it, and never being interrupted for even an instant?

 

Sixth question: When all kinds of adverse and favorable and good and evil realms appear before us, are we unobstructed by them, and can we see through them all?

 

Seventh question: In all the mental states in Treatise on the Gate for Illuminating the Hundred Phenomena, can we see for each and every one of them, their fine details, the essential nature, and their fundamental source and point of origin, and not be confused by birth and death and the sense faculties and sense organs?

 

Eighth question: Can we discern reality in the midst of all forms of conduct and activity, whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, whether receiving instructions or responding, whether dressing or eating?

 

Ninth question: Can we be singleminded and unmoved whether we hear there is a Buddha or we hear there is no Buddha, whether we hear ther are sentient beings or we hear there are no sentient beings, whether wea re praised or slandered or affirmed or denied?

 

Tenth question: Can we clearly comprehend all the differentiating knowledge we hear, and comprehend both true nature and apperant form, inner truth and phenomena, without hindrance, and discern the source of all phenomena, even including the appearance of the thousand sages in the world, without any doubts?

[Simple_Jack]

Nan Huai Chins comment on the questions: The preceding ten questions can provide definitive criteria for deciding whether or not a person is really enlightened. The first question deals with the realm of illuminating mind and seeing true nature, being totally clear at all times in all places about all things, just as you would be when seeing the colors of a painting in broad daylight, and being in the same realm as such exemplers of wisdom as the Bodhisattva Manjushri. Can you be this way?

 

The second question asks whether you can be in accord with the Path when you encounter poeple and situations, or when other people get in the way. The expression "encounter situations and face objects" is very broad. Can you see forms and hear sounds without your mind moving? In your daily life, even at night when you fall asleep, can you be in accord the the Path in all things? Can you do that?

 

The third question is about the Buddhist scriptures. Can you take The Lotus Sutra and The Surangama Sutra and read them and fully understand them? Can you hear the loftiest explanations of the Dharma without becoming afraid? Can you thoroughly understand understand them, without having any doubts? Can you do that?

 

The fourth question asks, when students bring to bear all sorts of learning to ask you questions, are you able to answer them with unobstructed eloquence? All of you can investigate the last six questions for yourselves.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

For the hell of it I'll finish the last passage: The final passage of The Source Mirror presents the following information. If you cannot really do these things, you should not assume a proud, deceptive, lying attitude, or take a self-satisfied attitude. What you must do is make a wide-ranging study of the ultimate teaching, and broaden your learning of previous people of knowledge. Penetrate to the inherent nature that is the source of the enlightened teachers and Buddha, and reach the stage of freedom from doubt that is beyond study. Only at this point can you stop your studies and give your wandering mind a rest. Then you will handle yourself with concentration and contemplation in harmony, and act on behalf of others by teaching with skill in means.

 

If you cannot go everywhere in the universe to study, or make broad study of the multitude of scriptures, just make a careful reading of The Source Mirror, and you will naturally gain entry. This is the most important of all the teachings, the gate for moving toward the Path of enlightenment. It is like watching the mother to know the child, like finding the root to know the branches. When you pull the cloth, all the threads of the net are straight. When you pull the cloth, all the threads from which it is woven come along too.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Simple_Jack

[Simple_Jack]

Nan Huai Chins comments on the last passage: "If you cannot accomplish even one of the items mentioned in these ten questions, then you should not deceive yourself or others and think you are right. If you have any doubts at all, you must ask for instruction from enlightened teachers everywhere. You must certainly reach the realm of the Buddhas and the enlightened teachers. Only when you have accomplished all that the enlightened teachers awakened to, can you reach the level of freedom from doubt beyond study, where you no longer have to study. When you "give your wandering mind a rest," the mind of false thought totally stops. "Then you will handle yourself with concentration and contemplation in harmony and act behalf of others by teaching with skill in means." After you have attained great penetrating enlightenment , you either travel the Hinayana road, and further cultivate the four dhyanas and the eight samadhis and realize their fruit, and become fully equipped with the six spiritual powers and three Buddha-bodies and all the wondrous functions of the spiritual powers; or else you travel the Mahayana road, and sacrifice your own cultivation to help others, and appear in the worldto propagate the Dharma.

 

"If you cannot go everywhere in the universe to study, or make a broad study of the multitude of scriptures," that is, if you think there are too many works in the Buddhist canon for you to be able to read them all, "just make a careful reading of The Source Mirror and you will naturally gain entry. This is the most important of all the teachings, the gate for moving toward the Path of enlightenment."

Zen master Yen-Shou urges you to make a careful study of his The Source Mirror, because he has collected together in his book all the essential points of all the scriptures. "It is like watching the mother to know the children, like finding the root to know the branches. When you pull the cloth, all the threads from which it is woven come along too." How beautiful the language is here. This is the importance of this book as Zen master Yen-Shou explains it."

Edited December 27, 2010 by Simple_Jack

[suninmyeyes]

Replying to suninmyeyes and 3bob here: Yes you can definitely verify if someone is enlightened. Hell, Zen master Yen-Shou (In his book The Source Mirror/ Tsung Chin Lu which hasn't been translated into English) came up with 10 questions of how to verify if someone is enlightened

 

I'm going to take this straight out of Working Toward Enlightenment by Nan Huai Chin: "The Source Mirror tells us what enlightenment means. In the book, ten questions are raised. There are no enlightened people who have not mastered the scriptural teachings. They know all the principles of the Buddhist scriptures at one glance. For them reading the scriptures is like reading a novel: They understand everything as soon as they read it, and they do not have to study them in depth. Zen master Yen-Shou's Source Mirror says this in Volume 1: Suppose there are people who stubbornly cling to their own views, who do not believe the words of the Buddha, who create attitudes that block them, and who cut off other routes of study. For their sake I will now discuss ten questions in order to firmly establish the guiding principles.

 

First question: When we completely see true nature as plainly as we see colors in broad daylight, are we the same as bodhisattvas like Manjushri?

 

Second question: When we can clearly understand the source in everything, as we encounter situations and face objects, as we see form and hear sound, as we raise and lower our feet, as we open and close our eyes, are we in accord with the path?

 

Third question: When we read through the teachings of Buddha for our era contained in the Buddhist canon, and the sayings of all the Zen masters since antiquity, and we hear their profundities without becoming afraid, do we always get accurate understanding and have no doubts?

 

Fourth question: When people pose difficult differentiating questins to us, and press us with all sorts of probing inquiries, are we able to respond with the four forms of eloquence, and resolve all their doubts?

 

Fifth question: Does your wisdom shine unhindered at all times in all places, with perfect penetration from moment to moment, not encountering any phenomenon that can obstruct it, and never being interrupted for even an instant?

 

Sixth question: When all kinds of adverse and favorable and good and evil realms appear before us, are we unobstructed by them, and can we see through them all?

 

Seventh question: In all the mental states in Treatise on the Gate for Illuminating the Hundred Phenomena, can we see for each and every one of them, their fine details, the essential nature, and their fundamental source and point of origin, and not be confused by birth and death and the sense faculties and sense organs?

 

Eighth question: Can we discern reality in the midst of all forms of conduct and activity, whether walking, standing, sitting, or lying down, whether receiving instructions or responding, whether dressing or eating?

 

Ninth question: Can we be singleminded and unmoved whether we hear there is a Buddha or we hear there is no Buddha, whether we hear ther are sentient beings or we hear there are no sentient beings, whether wea re praised or slandered or affirmed or denied?

 

Tenth question: Can we clearly comprehend all the differentiating knowledge we hear, and comprehend both true nature and apperant form, inner truth and phenomena, without hindrance, and discern the source of all phenomena, even including the appearance of the thousand sages in the world, without any doubts?

My point is how do you know?

 

Judging by the reply this is your belief in someone elses knowledge or belief .It is not your direct knowledge.

It is different to take these kind of texts as inspiration , stimulation.And different to develop a belief and/or dogma upon them.

What I am saying really is -you gotta walk your talk.

At the same time if "you"feel satisfied only with whats written and like to take others word for it becouse that has a potential to make you feel safe,protected or exclusive or whatever it may make someone feel (I am just guessing here ),that is fine too .

But you cant say that "you"know as that would immediatly go against your statement and proclaim you as Buddha.

Best,

Sun

[Sunya]

My point is how do you know?

 

Judging by the reply this is your belief in someone elses knowledge or belief .It is not your direct knowledge.

It is different to take these kind of texts as inspiration , stimulation.And different to develop a belief and/or dogma upon them.

What I am saying really is -you gotta walk your talk.

At the same time if "you"feel satisfied only with whats written and like to take others word for it becouse that has a potential to make you feel safe,protected or exclusive or whatever it may make someone feel (I am just guessing here ),that is fine too .

But you cant say that "you"know as that would immediatly go against your statement and proclaim you as Buddha.

Best,

Sun

 

It is true that direct insight and realization is the most important and nothing else compares. At the same time it's also true that if you know the goal really well through logic, then it is possible to know someone else's realization based upon how they explain it.

 

Explanations are not just fingers pointing to the moon, as people love to say, but rather each explanation points to a different moon... or rather each finger is a reflection of a different moon. If you know the reflection, then you know the moon pretty well already and are quite close to realizing it, and it is thus possible to know if someone else has realized the same moon by the finger they point with.

[Sunya]

Is anyone in a position to judge an individuals development without actually meeting them face to face?

 

What difference does meeting someone face to face make? They need to explain their realization, and if you know the path well then you are able to judge.

 

Imagine you're a mystical Christian, and you see God everywhere. So there's no separation between God, Jesus, creation, and you. Everything is God, okay? Now you meet somebody on the internet or face to face or whatever, and he tells you his realization. His realization is that Jesus is the literal son of God. He died for our sins, and there will soon be an apocalypse and you better get ready to be judged.

 

So, you'd be able to judge his realization quite quickly right? It's no secret. People speak quite plainly about their realizations, and language is a pretty good indicator of that.

 

In the same regard, Wilber talks about 'emptiness' as a formless ground of being, but according to the Buddhist tradition that is actually a subtle delusional attachment to a source, and the clearer realization is that there is no source. So, it's just like how the mystical Christian has a more refined realization than the literal Bible thumping Christian. But, the only way you can understand that it's a clearer realization is to understand it yourself.

 

You don't need an experience of emptiness to understand it logically. You can understand this distinction through logically analyzing the position (or lack of a position) of emptiness. And actually, you need that logical understanding before you can even have the actual experience. So it's quite necessary.

Edited December 27, 2010 by Sunya

[Sunya]

Replying to suninmyeyes and 3bob here: Yes you can definitely verify if someone is enlightened. Hell, Zen master Yen-Shou (In his book The Source Mirror/ Tsung Chin Lu which hasn't been translated into English) came up with 10 questions of how to verify if someone is enlightened

 

Thanks for typing all of that it. It was really interesting to read.

[suninmyeyes]

It is true that direct insight and realization is the most important and nothing else compares. At the same time it's also true that if you know the goal really well through logic, then it is possible to know someone else's realization based upon how they explain it.

 

Explanations are not just fingers pointing to the moon, as people love to say, but rather each explanation points to a different moon... or rather each finger is a reflection of a different moon. If you know the reflection, then you know the moon pretty well already and are quite close to realizing it, and it is thus possible to know if someone else has realized the same moon by the finger they point with.

I would say different finger points to the same moon.

I roughly agree with you .

My above point was specifiacly about probability of not only Buddhist gaining finest insight (but also gurus,pundits and auntie Doris and anyone else).Which is not really possible according to what Jack quoted you got to know the Buddhist texts ,and logic only would not qualify..

[Sunya]

I would say different finger points to the same moon.

I roughly agree with you .

My above point was specifiacly about probability of not only Buddhist gaining finest insight (but also gurus,pundits and auntie Doris and anyone else).Which is not really possible according to what Jack quoted you got to know the Buddhist texts ,and logic only would not qualify..

 

There is a logic to why, and it takes a while to explain. Buddhist logic is the complete negation and deconstruction of all concepts. This is not done through the belief in something but rather the negation of everything, with nothing left to stand on and nothing to cling to. If somebody has this realization without reading Buddhist texts, then that doesn't mean that aren't enlightened. It just means that they are very special. I don't doubt that it can happen. The Buddha figured it out on his own.

 

For many and most, studying the logic is a very good idea. There's lot of false views out there, and having a false view can prohibit one from attaining a deeper realization. This is because there will be a very subtle clinging or attachment to some idea which isn't actually true. If someone is very honest and brutally serious, then I do think that they can move beyond that limitation, but many do seem to stop and think that their realization is final and don't really question it.

 

Buddhism does give a validity to realization because you get tested by teachers and can test yourself by studying the text. At the same time, Buddha taught us to be non-dogmatic and question everything, to never accept something merely by believing it or because someone of authority said it. Your experience is the ultimate verifier.

 

Unfortunately Wilber, and not to keep picking on him, has not been very honest with himself. He claims to be an intellectual samurai or whatever, has studied with many different Buddhist teachers, and he still fails to understand what emptiness means. This I find strange. I don't think I'm very smart, and I got it within a couple of years of study. I think anyone can get it if they are honest and sincere. So, about Wilber... I don't know. I think he does a lot of good with his books and all that, but I really wish he didn't misrepresent the Buddhist teachings and lead people into a false view. It can be very difficult to get out of that.

[TheJourney]

Buddhism is one of the great truths which helps you see the ultimate truth of no-truth. It can just be difficult for some to let it go. And that's ok. That's their path. That's their truth.

[ben]

[TheJourney]

Exactly. All concepts are the same, because they share the same nature of being different, and impermanent. The only reason permanence exists is because of impermanence. Neither are ultimately true. No words can describe this. I don't know whether the buddha saw the truth or not. His teachings helped me to see the truth, though. I don't know whether he used these ideas to help us see the truth of no-truth, or if he was clinging to those ideas at a very subtle level. Who knows. People get way too caught up in the historical buddha.

Edited December 27, 2010 by TheJourney

[suninmyeyes]

There is a logic to why, and it takes a while to explain. Buddhist logic is the complete negation and deconstruction of all concepts. This is not done through the belief in something but rather the negation of everything, with nothing left to stand on and nothing to cling to. If somebody has this realization without reading Buddhist texts, then that doesn't mean that aren't enlightened. It just means that they are very special. I don't doubt that it can happen. The Buddha figured it out on his own.

For many and most, studying the logic is a very good idea. There's lot of false views out there, and having a false view can prohibit one from attaining a deeper realization. This is because there will be a very subtle clinging or attachment to some idea which isn't actually true. If someone is very honest and brutally serious, then I do think that they can move beyond that limitation, but many do seem to stop and think that their realization is final and don't really question it.

 

Buddhism does give a validity to realization because you get tested by teachers and can test yourself by studying the text. At the same time, Buddha taught us to be non-dogmatic and question everything, to never accept something merely by believing it or because someone of authority said it. Your experience is the ultimate verifier.

 

Unfortunately Wilber, and not to keep picking on him, has not been very honest with himself. He claims to be an intellectual samurai or whatever, has studied with many different Buddhist teachers, and he still fails to understand what emptiness means. This I find strange. I don't think I'm very smart, and I got it within a couple of years of study. I think anyone can get it if they are honest and sincere. So, about Wilber... I don't know. I think he does a lot of good with his books and all that, but I really wish he didn't misrepresent the Buddhist teachings and lead people into a false view. It can be very difficult to get out of that.

In bold letters.

Exactly what I was trying to say with the original question in reply to Xabir mentioning that "gurus" and "pundits"could never have such insight(here I have understood it to mean any "gurus"or "pundits"as it is written in plural).And I have asked how do you know?

When Simple Jack replied he started of with this quote:

'm going to take this straight out of Working Toward Enlightenment by Nan Huai Chin: "The Source Mirror tells us what enlightenment means. In the book, ten questions are raised. There are no enlightened people who have not mastered the scriptural teachings. They know all the principles of the Buddhist scriptures at one glance.."

This is belief not knowledge.Beleving in someones belief or knowledge and didnt answer my question of how do you know?

It has no relevance to my question which was about "you"(here I mean any you)actually knowing and quoting just wont do it good enough,although there was some nice quotes I must admit.

Just trying to make myself understood here,and say :what about some more "maybeies" and leaving the door in the mind open a bit ?But yeah I havent a problem with what youre saying,logic is good and works for certain type of people ,but it is not the only way.

Dont know much about these guys mentioned in original post so cant comment.

Edited December 27, 2010 by suninmyeyes

[ben]

[3bob]

Logic has a place but when it comes to matters spoken of in this string it in no way will leap beyond duality and its doubt. Btw, the logic of the four-fold negation (a fine mental insight) ends where one really begins.

 

There is a way Suninmyeyes but it does not rely on nor is it proven with deductive logic, speculations, the study-memory and quoting of written doctrines, noting the 32 or whatever number of signs, using a hundred well developed mental powers, etc., although when such tools are used properly they can help.

 

Nor does it rely on vicariously putting one's self in a masters shoes and then pointing at a borrowed moon.

(for their realization is their realization and not someone else's)

 

Niether I nor anyone else here can prove or force anything upon you and apparently you already know that -

I suggest sticking to that for we already have what no one else can give us, it's just a matter of uncovering it, even for a moment and what else is there really besides the moment?

 

Om

[C T]

CowTao, thank you so much for going to all that trouble. It's the concept of the samayas that I think I've been looking for. This practice would seem to separate the men from the boys. This would seem to be the narrowing road, the one that becomes less obstructed with personal baggage the more impeccable of heart the practitioner becomes. It's the connection I've been looking for. I'll be printing your information out - thanks again!

Hi Manitou,

 

Its no trouble. Happy that you made the connection. I can see you are a very considerate and kind person, displaying many bodhisattvic qualities. This is wonderful! It does not matter what you practice... what matters is with what kind of 'eyes' we have and use when we view others. If our 'eyes' are bright and clear, then when we view others, no matter how others are, then we will see the fundamental nature behind all sentience. This is why in Buddhism, training one's own mind is paramount. A trained mind can cut through many delusions, and reveal things that otherwise can remain hidden from normal sense perceptions.

 

Many Mahayana and Vajrayana practitioners rely on Atisha's ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atisha ) Seven Points of Mind Training, a reliable source of teaching that leads to a great many realizations when diligently understood and practiced. Since you had asked for more specific teachings within Buddhism that can help transform a person, i thought it might be a good idea to follow up my previous post by sharing this with you. Hope you will get some useful pointers from this.

 

http://www.kagyu-asia.com/t_7points_atisha.html

 

and this:

 

http://www.unfetteredmind.org/mindtraining/introduction.php

Edited December 27, 2010 by CowTao

[manitou]

Wow. There is some really good information on this thread. Thank you again to everyone who has taken the time to input your contributions.

 

After this thread started yesterday, I woke up this morning visualiziing a lotus flower. I had the understanding at the same time that the lotus flower is an analogy for our spine, brain stem, and brain. When the practitioner gets to the point where he has no personal foibles left, no judgments, no arrogance about 'being the first', no bigotry, no selfishness, no sarcasm, no ego....this is when the lotus-brain can fully open. The petals are receivers for all data, unencumbered by the jadedness of a particular point of view. When ego blockages and personality defects are in the way, the lotus is only able to open halfway and therefore the reception of data is restricted and colored by preconceptions.

 

Normally, I no longer dream. Or if I do, I no longer remember them. I wish I could. But on three occasions within the last year a strange thing has happened. Twice I've awakened in the morning being aware that I have been reading ancient scrolls in my dream. The scrolls are close to my face, and the words in the scroll flash in front of my eyes, much like the streamer on CNN. I recognize the words, but the part of my brain that can string the words into an understandable sentence is not awake, apparently. This has happened twice, the ancient scrolls. Yesterday I woke up reading not an ancient scroll but a college textbook about something very heady. Again, I remember understanding each and every word (and they were lengthy and academic words in the textbook) but not being able to attach them together into an understandable sentence. In other words, I think the information is getting into my psyche in some fashion, but not with my cohesive awareness.

 

Has anyone experienced anything similar? I say this because of the mention of someone in the thread that one can't become enlightened unless certain things are read, certain truths are known. For those of us who utilize the Sage as our model, and do so earnestly, we haven't studied these particular works mentioned which are necessary for enlightenment (according to some). However, the Sage possesses the three treasures of 'Never Too Much', 'Never be the First', and 'Love'. By reading, studying, and internalizing the Tao Te Ching, is it not possible to develop these three treasures? Is this that different from the concepts of Buddhism that may get you to the same place? To walk around in the mindset of the above three treasures would create a balance that is perfect.

 

The Tao Te Ching is all about how to live life in the most spiritually expedient fashion, the way that works for the utmost balance. If one has gotten to the point where they are truly 'Never the First', there is no anxiety about getting somewhere on time, of feeling that there isn't enough time to do something. If they have internalized the concept of 'Never Too Much', the pig within us has been contained. And selfishness is overriden by Love, if we purge our personality of the selfishnesses that stand in the way of clarity. The Sage can get to the point where he loves others AS himself. He knows that the other IS himself.

[TheJourney]

There are no "necessary" truths which you must learn to be liberated, other than the ultimate truth of no-truth. Buddhism is a great tool for getting there. Taoism is also a great tool for getting there. Liberation is here for you right now. There are no steps that you have to take, other than the ones which allow you to see that you are liberated.

[C T]

There are no "necessary" truths which you must learn to be liberated, other than the ultimate truth of no-truth. Buddhism is a great tool for getting there. Taoism is also a great tool for getting there. Liberation is here for you right now. There are no steps that you have to take, other than the ones which allow you to see that you are liberated.

Its great to see that you have had glimpses into the true nature of suchness.

 

However, it is quite a risk to implore others to forsake basic training in the necessary steps. Methods are still crucial, no matter how high one's realizations, because it is very easy to get distracted. Many senior practitioners and some masters, even after years of training to maintain the 'View', can sometimes falter and lose their balance, simply because they have somehow ignored certain basic precepts.

 

Of course, if you insist on speaking on the ultimacy of things, then on that level, actually not only are there no steps, no truths nor no non-truths, there isn't even a 'you' to attain anything, or not attain, for that matter. Nor is there any liberation, nor any moment that can be experienced as a 'now' moment, since to do so, it necessitates a 'self' to experience such. Since we are relatively here, very much in body, it might be wise not to dismiss certain fundamental practices, and keep doing these, until distractions can be securely eliminated.

 

Guru Padmasambhava said, "Even though your View is as vast as the sky, keep your conduct as fine as barley flour".

[TheJourney]

Right. I think, though, that it's natural that as we progress on the path the higher subjective truths became deeply engrained into our psyche. You understand the ultimate truth, and as such understand that there is no ultimate truth and thus live in the higher subjective truths.

[suninmyeyes]

Logic has a place but when it comes to matters spoken of in this string it in no way will leap beyond duality and its doubt. Btw, the logic of the four-fold negation (a fine mental insight) ends where one really begins.

 

There is a way Suninmyeyes but it does not rely on nor is it proven with deductive logic, speculations, the study-memory and quoting of written doctrines, noting the 32 or whatever number of signs, using a hundred well developed mental powers, etc., although when such tools are used properly they can help.

 

 

 

Yeah,I agree that there is a way and it is not exclusive ,but a birthright of all regardless of anything.

Regarding logic I see it as one of the ways with which one could leap beyond duality.It is the same with all the "tools" you use them and than come to "halt" where intuitive understanding takes place.But to try and make logic of intuition is usless ,however translating it into language for a sake of disscusion or conversation can be fun and/or useful.