self defence skills through tai chi

[suninmyeyes]

I will try and concentrate on martial application a lot in tai chi this year ,as I mostly concentrated on form till now.

Just curious if anyone learned self defense through tai chi or mainly through tai chi?Especially women as women are less likley to be naturally good at self defense and fighting(of course there are always exceptions to the rules).

Any feedback welcome.

Edited December 27, 2010 by suninmyeyes

[Prince...]

I will try and concentrate on martial application a lot in tai chi this year ,as I mostly concentrated on form till now.

Just curious if anyone learned self defense through tai chi or mainly through tai chi?Especially women as women are less likley to be naturally good at self defense and fighting(of course there are always exceptions to the rules).

Any feedback welcome.

 

I'm not sure if I agree with you on the women being less likely to be naturally good at self defense and fighting thing as the girls for the most part were bigger than the boys where I grew up. Up until recently, the best Taiji players that I'd met were women. Unfortunately for me, I had very little interest in studying Taiji at that time of my life. Now I am kicking myself at missing the chance to study under the "US Queen of Taiji."

 

No idea where you are, but my club does push hands twice a week and explores applications in every class. The key to exploring applications & self defense is having practice partners who are game for this sort of thing. My teacher says applications are only limited by your creativity, but here is a good source if you need a jump start:

http://www.internaldamagetaichi.com/

 

Here is a preview:

 

 

I would also take a look at Biliki's Kilap Hands DVD. If you are creative, you can come up with some flow drills using things from the form. We do a flow drill with deflect, parry, and punch all the time in class.

 

Good luck, I wish more Taiji "players" had an interest in self defense!

[suninmyeyes]

Thanks Prince.I am in Europe..It would be interesting for me to explore and learn through martial applications,as I have none and I am on taller side but not big at all.

In another words I would have to learn how to use inner power for any type of self defense.Which is a great challenge in many ways.

Ill explore the website you reccomended.

[zerostao]

have you had the chance to look at joanna zorya? in her tai chi she does not acknowledge chi(qi). but i find her useful in her bio-mechanics approach. i mention her first becoz of the woman thing : ) she works from the cheng man-ching style which would be suitable for all yang style. she has a you tube and a website.

do you practice push hands? tai chi for self defence is alot different than tai chi for health. it takes perserverance and lots of practices. i always look to yang jwing-ming for tai chi martial applications. but again this is yang style tai chi. if you practice chen or any of the otherstyles of tai chi then my reply may not help so much. either way good luck

[fiveelementtao]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBA7LsumNGs

[ben]

Tai Chi is unlike any other martial art I have trained in. Having studied a number of Chinese martial arts I am now trying to "unlearn" or forget everything I was taught. As far as martial applications go, one needs to master the form first until ones ability to generate fa jing is intrinsic. Most people never master the long form and there push hands becomes a sought of soft wrestling. Still a long way to go for me.

[Stigweard]

I will try and concentrate on martial application a lot in tai chi this year ,as I mostly concentrated on form till now.

Just curious if anyone learned self defense through tai chi or mainly through tai chi?Especially women as women are less likley to be naturally good at self defense and fighting(of course there are always exceptions to the rules).

Any feedback welcome.

One of the greatest criticisms I have of 95% of the Tai Chi martial arts applications "out there" is that they are so locked into their forms.

 

I would like to suggest that "true Tai Chi" is not the forms, not the Tui Shou, not the Da Lu, but is instead an experiential understanding and application of the principles of Tai Chi like, for example, the ability to spontaneously and appropriately respond to any given situation.

 

These two principles, spontaneity and appropriate response, are supposed to be learned through Tui Shou, but my experience shows me that most practitioners become too rigid and confined within the format of traditional Tui Shou practice.

 

What I have found to be liberating, and has in turn improved my Tai Chi practice out of sight, is learning the Systema flow drills:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyQQ6nbt5VA

[San Ti]

As far as martial applications go, one needs to master the form first until ones ability to generate fa jing is intrinsic. Most people never master the long form

 

Ben,

 

I really don't agree with mastering the long form first. Coming from a Hsingyi background, I find the Tai Chi forms entirely too long to learn the advanced body mechanics necessary to progress. IMO, it is much more useful to take a single posture and drill it until you understand. Then take the next posture and so on, until you have worked through all of the postures. Then start work on the long form to learn things like flow, long term concentration, possible combinations.

 

Suninmyeyes,

 

It is possible to learn self defense using Tai Chi. If you have the basics down, then you will need an instructor who understands and can teach self defense, and motivated training partners. Realize that it is progressive approach, you will need to learn the skills from the two person exercises and incorporate those into the applications. Good Luck

[Mal]

Especially women as women are less likley to be naturally good at self defense and fighting(of course there are always exceptions to the rules)

 

I think the exceptions tend to turn up in martial arts classes Women are generally more familiar with confrontations where they are not physically the strongest (ask any girl who liked to "play rough" with older brothers) I would say that generally women do much better than men at kung fu as they do not attempt to use strength against strength.

 

Just curious if anyone learned self defense through tai chi or mainly through tai chi

 

while only a minor confrontation (we are not talking life and death knife fights here) a grandmother in our class recently reported being able to "handle" an aggressive teenager when he pushed her. She has practiced Tai Chi for years, form only. So a stereotypical frail old granny (except that she moves very well with excellent balance) did ok from just form practice.

 

But I do feel to get "self defense" you need -

correct mental skills - to evaluate and handle the situation pre/during/post fight.

2 person practice - to be use to touching an opponent and feeling how they respond.

[Gerard]

If you want to learn real Taiji martial skills, let me recommend you Chen Xiaowang. He conducts regular seminars in Europe and the US even though he is based in Australia. His son, Chen Jun is also very good, someone you certainly wouldn't mess up with. Lots of internal power.

 

http://www.chenxiaowang.com/workshops.html

 

Just an example of CXW's skill:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JI5q7QI14wk&feature=related

 

 

And another practical vid:

 

 

 

 

Good luck.

Edited December 28, 2010 by Gerard

[zerostao]

chen xiaowang is certainly a giant among the taiji world. i have always admired his student ren guangyi too.

if suninmyeyes practices chen taiji then certainly great way to go. so i ask which taiji form she does practice?? as to me it would make sense to learn the applications that match that form. i agree flow drills are good. the systema idea is fresh. silat also could easily be used for this. but part of it is having the muscle/mind memory of what is familiar with your practice. push hands with as many different people as possible as having just one partner leads to too much familiarity of that person. i understand the xingyi mentality of having a few moves and having them down very good.still there are countless possible applications in xingyi.in this thread she specifically asked about taiji. in yang taiji there really is only 13 main postures, or i look at it like 8 main postures and 5 main steppings. all taiji, all internal styles , even the soft/hard styles like crane, snake, dragon, etc use fa jing. does suninmyeyes have any other martial arts background to draw from? this is also a factor to consider. before someone ever starts to emit fa jing(if ever)

it is good to be proficient at fundamental bio mechanics of the style. in my opinion to be a taiji fighter , you have to keep the calm and relaxed in the heat of battle and have confidence in your skill. i realize this is a deep and profound art but i tend to look at the practical/basic part of it. the internaldamagetaichi video showed some practical ideas. alot of good high quality advice is given here. which of it resonnates with her the best is the way to go.

[ben]

Firstly, for a thorough treatment of the history and development of Tai Chi and other Nei Jia styles I would recommend Gerald Sharps website chiflow.com.

 

In my understanding Yang Lu Chan's son, Yang Banhou, inherited the most of his father's internal skill in neutralization-a characteristic that really distinguishes an 'internal' art. Fa jing can be found in most authentic Chinese martial arts but neautralization is really the characteristic that separates a Tai Chi player from a Tai Chi master. IMO a lot of modern Chen Tai Chi resembles Baji Quan, sure there is a lot of obvious power on display but how many of these masters can EFFORTLESSLY neautralize an attack.

Yang Lu Chan, Yang Banhou, Wu Quan You, Wu Jianquan and Ma Yueh Liang all were know for there neautralizing skill. My teachers master, Young Wabu, was a disciple of Wu Jianquan. Young Wabu was already a master of many external styles and when sparring with Wu Jianquan could not launch any attack- Wu simply kept him off balance.

 

If I was interested in just developing power I would study BaJi Quan or one of the Muslim derived Hsing I styles or Southern Praying Mantis but I firmly believe that the highest level of skill, neautralizing, can still be attained today providing one has the correct teacher. Thats why I study Master Stephen Hwa's forms.

 

Master Hwa was a disciple of Young Wabu. Young Wabu, as well as been known for his fighting ability in Tai Chi, was also skilled in the art of healing people with his chi. Anyway, the point I really wanted to make was Young Wabu was adamant that the only way to develop skill in tai chi was to rigorously practise the long form. Wu Jiangquan had him practise the form relentlessly, there was no other supplementary study, no other chi kung and no push hands until complete mastery of the form was attained. Young Wabu was of the opinion that delving into push hands without mastering the long form would be detrimental to a students development.

 

Certainly there might be other methods for developing in skill in tai chi but Master Young Wabu had robust health up until he passed over at the age of 101, he could heal people with his chi and could use tai chi for fighting. Respect.

[Prince...]

Before mentioning teachers or getting into discussions of style X and teacher Y, it might be helpful to find out where in Europe she lives.

 

You don't need to develop Fajing or a good form to develop fighting skill. You need progressive practice towards developing fighting skill to develop fighting skill. If anyone wishes to disagree, start a topic on EmptyFlower or Rum Soaked Fist. Tao Bums is not really the right forum for this discussion.

[suninmyeyes]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for your respones.For your info I have been training with a teacher in Chen style and am satisfied as I feel I am learning a lot with him and there are push hands classes availible.I have started with qigong and tai chi for health reasons initially due to an accident few years ago.And now is the time to move on and explore different dimension of tai chi and might as well make use of it well and also I find it good to do things I am not familiar with doing as it brings a lot of new understanding .So was wondering if anyone gained self defence skills from tai chi as I often see people practising for different reasons..

My fighting skills have never really been explored ,although I do remeber stuffing my jam sandwich into my classmates face in primary school.

fivelemntao-I liked that video a lot .It is very clear ,I ll be watching it again as I am still exploring and learning dynamics of martial arts ,as they are quite new for me still.

ben-Thanks for the input on neutralization ,it was intersting to read as I hardly even read anything about taichi so far,just did the training.I checked website you reccomend and hope you do well in unlearning.

stigweard-love what you said about tai chi being -expirential understanding of its principals and being able to handle spontaniously and appropriatley in any situation-.This is what I am getting too.I will watch video again too.

Mal-Thanks for mentioning the Granny,she gives me hope(ok I am not a Granny yet,but if she can do it I can too;)).And yeah my aim is to attend push hands classes and see what developes.

San Ti-Thanks for good luck,have you developed fighting skills through tai chi?Has anyone?

Gerard-I am actually thinking to attend one of his workshops in Europe next year.Thanks.

zerostar-pushing hands with as many people as possible is a good advice.I have seen that female martial artists sparring video before.She looks tough.It was interesting to read about her approach and no chi policy.

Prince-I liked the video nice approach.

 

And anyone who has gained fighting skills through tai chi solely or mainly ,I would like to hear from you too..

[San Ti]

San Ti[/b]-Thanks for good luck,have you developed fighting skills through tai chi?Has anyone?

 

And anyone who has gained fighting skills through tai chi solely or mainly ,I would like to hear from you too..

 

Hi,

 

I can't say that I have learned fighting skills exclusively through Tai Chi training since I have trained external styles and the 2 other main internal styles. At the moment, I am learning a practical style of Tai Chi and using it to explore and refine body mechanics and applications from a different point of view. Some of my classmates have had no other martial arts training and have learned to defend themselves using our class syllabus.

 

Enjoy your training.

[Taomeow]

 

My fighting skills have never really been explored ,although I do remeber stuffing my jam sandwich into my classmates face in primary school. (...)

And anyone who has gained fighting skills through tai chi solely or mainly ,I would like to hear from you too..

 

I never had a chance to try my taiji in a physical fight, but I have used the humble skill acquired so far in very serious situations of fighting that were psychological warfare. An example:

 

a loved one was hospitalized in a life-threatening emergency and basically taken hostage by the head of the ICU who, instead of doing what was really necessary, wanted to use this routine opportunity (someone entirely powerless under his thumb) to perform several unnecessary (which I knew for a medical fact), invasive and dangerous (which I couldn't allow), expensive (the only real reason) tests and refused to do anything until/unless his plan was agreed upon. I had the power-of-attorney to make the decisions for the sick person, so I was the one the doctor had to "fight off" in order to do what he wanted to do. He was a triumphant blackmailing bully in his attitude which said, almost in so many words, "I am the king of this castle, you are nothing, I do as I please, it doesn't matter what is medically justified, what matters is that I am powerful and you are powerless, see?" MUCH worse than a punch, this.

 

The doctor was obviously used to everybody giving up under the kind of pressure he put on me. Instead of going with my emotions (if I did I would probably wind up being thrown out by security, taiji or not), I consciously decided to take the situation under taiji control. I took a step back, relaxed, sunk externally, internally, emotionally. Then into the first opening in the doctor's screaming I pushed research, studies, logic, calm confidence which taiji taught me to feel in situations where I wouldn't be able to summon it otherwise. The first thing that happened was, the doctor was visibly thrown off by my body language -- relaxed and soft without cringing or crumbling -- the body language of defeat wasn't there, of fighting, wasn't there... he didn't know what to make of it and suddenly shut up and then goes, "but, honey... sweetheart..." -- which made me realize he's projecting someone else onto me in his misplaced adamance, so I took a wild guess and spoke to him in a voice that was a cross between a mother comforting a crying infant and a hooker promising untold delights to a customer. He was a puddle of compliance in a minute. Thank you, taiji!

[suninmyeyes]

That was well done Tao Meow.Your tai chi skills rule!

What a terrible situation,one of those very rare ,very thight almost impossible to handle ones.

 

I notice tai chi in my day to day life to be very beneficial,and it has been helpful for healing purposes too.Although I have over 10 years of exprience of yoga practise ,taichi tought me a lot about body mind mechanics in different way. And it is very grounding too.

It e ages to write this,my computer is not really working well this days.

Edited December 29, 2010 by suninmyeyes

[PurpleHeaven]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMC59BCxPOo

 

It is not solely Taiji but contains the other arts of Mt. Wudang but is a good example nonetheless.

 

 

Wudang Knife Defense Principles